I've been scouring the web for hours now. This situation has come up multiple times and while I'm making judgements on the spot that seem logical, I'm trying to find what is supported or intended by actual rules for the following situations:
A creature on its turn, grows one or more sizes larger as a result of an effect. Scenario A: it's surrounded by allied creatures before its expansion. Scenario B: it's surrounded by enemy creatures before its expansion. Scenario C: it's surrounded by a mix of creatures before its expansion. Scenario D: it's surrounded by a mix of creatures and hard obstacles (such as walls, but the walls are not too restrictive. For example medium creature turns into Giant Ape. Out of the 9 tiles the Ape should occupy only 2 are walls.) before its expansion.
A creature outside of its turn, grows one or more sizes larger as a result of an effect. Scenario A: it's surrounded by allied creatures before its expansion. Scenario B: it's surrounded by enemy creatures before its expansion. Scenario C: it's surrounded by a mix of creatures before its expansion. Scenario D: it's surrounded by a mix of creatures and hard obstacles (such as walls, but the walls are not too restrictive. For example medium creature turns into Giant Ape. Out of the 9 tiles the Ape should occupy only 2 are walls.) before its expansion.
And going into more details, if creatures get pushed by such an effect, do they have no way of resisting it? Since such effect usually has no attack roll or saving throw, if a push effect is involved, is it a guaranteed cheesy way to always succeed?
Picture Examples, The hooded token is the one changing. Wolf token are hostile, knight tokens are friendly. Giant Ape the goal as an effect of Polymorph:
Growing in size can make you occupy another creature's space. What the rules for Moving Around Other Creatures restrict is moving or ending a move, which isn't the case here.
On the other hand, walls and other source of total cover cannot be occupied despite growing in size so it may cause one to squeeze instead.
Moving Around Other Creatures: You can move through a nonhostile creature's space. In contrast, you can move through a hostile creature's space only if the creature is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. Remember that another creature's space is difficult terrain for you. Whether a creature is a friend or an enemy, you can't willingly end your move in its space. If you leave a hostile creature's reach during your move, you provoke an opportunity attack, as explained later in the section.
Most effects that modify a creatures size, like Enlarge/Reduce, Rune Knight's Giant's Might feature, or Path of the Giant's Giant's Havoc feature, etc all contain language saying what happens where there isn't enough room for the creature to grow to their new size.
This is enough to cover almost every other situation as rarely does an effect increase a creatures size category by more than one. In the cases where the creature is attempting to grow 2 more more size categories and the space is too tight for the normal squeezing rule I just ignore this requirement.
As for breaking out the situation by who's turn and what obstructions are around the growing creature, I would treat them all the same.
Added some images on the post and clarified more the situation. The hooded figure attempts to polymorph itself in the giant ape that would take the indicated space (probably). What rules handle the aspects of this situation? If anything must be get pushed back, do they have NO CHANCE of resisting the push?
As for the distinction between the creature's turn and not its turn, is for the rule that you cannot end your move in another creatures space. Meaning that if the caster was also the target, and they cannot move out of other creatures' turn on the same turn, maybe they can't complete the transformation? But if it's another creature which can't move on this turn, they don't have such choice?
Knowing that creatures can share space during movement, it's safe to assume that other circumstances can cause creatures to do so unless unnocupied space is specified. The thing to remember about creature's space is that it's the area it controls in combat, not its physical dimensions. Moving willingly is controlled but unwillingly isn't, and other effect causing creatures to share space is always possible and DM can always rule that they must squeeze or get pushed away.
For effects like Polymorph that don't say what happens when a creature tries to change size there isn't a general rule to say what happens when the isn't enough space.
As a DM I like to fall back on the squeezing rules. I treat creature friendly to the target, hostile to the target, and hard obstacles the same because you cannot willingly end your move inside the space of another creature, regardless of whether they are hostile or not.
By using the squeezing rules the additional impact is limited to just the creature changing its size. And either this creature chose to change their size in the confined space, or they already had a save when they were targeted by the effect changing their size.
But this is all just how I would rule it and other DMs will rule differently. If you prefer that other creatures get shoved out of the way I would recommend that you either allow for a strength saving throw or treat it as a shove attack. This does mean you still have to address what happens to the growing creature if one of the pushed creatures succeeds, but I feel this is preferable to not allowing the pushed creatures to resist.
In the case of polymorph/wildshape etc .. I would have the larger creature expand into the spaces occupied by the creatures around it, they would not get pushed back.i.e. polymorph is not a quick way to push a bunch of enemies off a cliff (and the enemies couldn't use it against the party either).
In addition, I would consider the creature that changed form to be squeezed until they have the area they control free of obstructions - whether those obstructions are other creatures or a wall or other structure.
I think that comes closest to RAW since there is no rule about creatures occupying the same space or automatically pushing other creatures - only voluntarily ending their turn there. The squeezing rules handle the limitations on the shape changed creature. This makes more sense if you consider that the space occupied by a creature represents the space they immediately control and not necessarily the space occupied by such a creature.
Note that most of the size changing effects for which limitations are described (Enlarge/Reduce, rune knight, giant barbarian) simply say that you can't change size or that the size change is limited to the available space.
So the most popular rulings favor squeezing rules over pushing targets (which seems more balanced). Would only the larger creature be squeezing? not everyone else?
So the most popular rulings favor squeezing rules over pushing targets (which seems more balanced). Would only the larger creature be squeezing? not everyone else?
I would likely not require it for anyone else unless they decided to stay in the same spot at the end of their turn.
So the most popular rulings favor squeezing rules over pushing targets (which seems more balanced). Would only the larger creature be squeezing? not everyone else?
I would likely not require it for anyone else unless they decided to stay in the same spot at the end of their turn.
I would likely consider any creature occupying another creatures space as being squeezed since they might lack room to swing and manipulate weapons appropriately. If they want to avoid the penalties they could move first. On the other hand, that is likely a ruling since the rules don't explicitly cover the situation.
"A creature's space reflects the area it needs to fight effectively." .. I interpret this to mean that a creature that doesn't have the full space available to them then they can't fight effectively. The rules on squeezing come next. If the creature's space is partly occupied then they are effectively being squeezed into an area smaller than the area they need to control to fight effectively ... so I would apply the squeezing rule to a creature where part of the space they would normally occupy is filled with another creature or obstacle.
Rules:
"Space
A creature’s space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn’t 5 feet wide, for example, but it does control a space that wide. If a Medium hobgoblin stands in a 5-foot-wide doorway, other creatures can’t get through unless the hobgoblin lets them.
A creature’s space also reflects the area it needs to fight effectively. For that reason, there’s a limit to the number of creatures that can surround another creature in combat. Assuming Medium combatants, eight creatures can fit in a 5-foot radius around another one.
Because larger creatures take up more space, fewer of them can surround a creature. If four Large creatures crowd around a Medium or smaller one, there’s little room for anyone else. In contrast, as many as twenty Medium creatures can surround a Gargantuan one.
Squeezing into a Smaller Space
A creature can squeeze through a space that is large enough for a creature one size smaller than it. Thus, a Large creature can squeeze through a passage that’s only 5 feet wide. While squeezing through a space, a creature must spend 1 extra foot for every foot it moves there, and it has disadvantage on attack rolls and Dexterity saving throws. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage while it’s in the smaller space."
Having creatures sharing space to squeeze could lead to tactic that easily take advantage of it for exemple; readying a spell when an ally move through the space of a hostile creature at least two sizes larger or smaller than it in order to get disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws against such spell.
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I've been scouring the web for hours now. This situation has come up multiple times and while I'm making judgements on the spot that seem logical, I'm trying to find what is supported or intended by actual rules for the following situations:
Scenario A: it's surrounded by allied creatures before its expansion.
Scenario B: it's surrounded by enemy creatures before its expansion.
Scenario C: it's surrounded by a mix of creatures before its expansion.
Scenario D: it's surrounded by a mix of creatures and hard obstacles (such as walls, but the walls are not too restrictive. For example medium creature turns into Giant Ape. Out of the 9 tiles the Ape should occupy only 2 are walls.) before its expansion.
Scenario A: it's surrounded by allied creatures before its expansion.
Scenario B: it's surrounded by enemy creatures before its expansion.
Scenario C: it's surrounded by a mix of creatures before its expansion.
Scenario D: it's surrounded by a mix of creatures and hard obstacles (such as walls, but the walls are not too restrictive. For example medium creature turns into Giant Ape. Out of the 9 tiles the Ape should occupy only 2 are walls.) before its expansion.
And going into more details, if creatures get pushed by such an effect, do they have no way of resisting it? Since such effect usually has no attack roll or saving throw, if a push effect is involved, is it a guaranteed cheesy way to always succeed?
Picture Examples, The hooded token is the one changing. Wolf token are hostile, knight tokens are friendly. Giant Ape the goal as an effect of Polymorph:
Growing in size can make you occupy another creature's space. What the rules for Moving Around Other Creatures restrict is moving or ending a move, which isn't the case here.
On the other hand, walls and other source of total cover cannot be occupied despite growing in size so it may cause one to squeeze instead.
Most effects that modify a creatures size, like Enlarge/Reduce, Rune Knight's Giant's Might feature, or Path of the Giant's Giant's Havoc feature, etc all contain language saying what happens where there isn't enough room for the creature to grow to their new size.
Some features, like Wild Shape, don't specify what happens and in these cases I usually fall back on the squeezing rules from the PHB: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/combat#SqueezingintoaSmallerSpace
This is enough to cover almost every other situation as rarely does an effect increase a creatures size category by more than one. In the cases where the creature is attempting to grow 2 more more size categories and the space is too tight for the normal squeezing rule I just ignore this requirement.
As for breaking out the situation by who's turn and what obstructions are around the growing creature, I would treat them all the same.
Added some images on the post and clarified more the situation. The hooded figure attempts to polymorph itself in the giant ape that would take the indicated space (probably). What rules handle the aspects of this situation? If anything must be get pushed back, do they have NO CHANCE of resisting the push?
As for the distinction between the creature's turn and not its turn, is for the rule that you cannot end your move in another creatures space. Meaning that if the caster was also the target, and they cannot move out of other creatures' turn on the same turn, maybe they can't complete the transformation? But if it's another creature which can't move on this turn, they don't have such choice?
Knowing that creatures can share space during movement, it's safe to assume that other circumstances can cause creatures to do so unless unnocupied space is specified. The thing to remember about creature's space is that it's the area it controls in combat, not its physical dimensions. Moving willingly is controlled but unwillingly isn't, and other effect causing creatures to share space is always possible and DM can always rule that they must squeeze or get pushed away.
For effects like Polymorph that don't say what happens when a creature tries to change size there isn't a general rule to say what happens when the isn't enough space.
As a DM I like to fall back on the squeezing rules. I treat creature friendly to the target, hostile to the target, and hard obstacles the same because you cannot willingly end your move inside the space of another creature, regardless of whether they are hostile or not.
By using the squeezing rules the additional impact is limited to just the creature changing its size. And either this creature chose to change their size in the confined space, or they already had a save when they were targeted by the effect changing their size.
But this is all just how I would rule it and other DMs will rule differently. If you prefer that other creatures get shoved out of the way I would recommend that you either allow for a strength saving throw or treat it as a shove attack. This does mean you still have to address what happens to the growing creature if one of the pushed creatures succeeds, but I feel this is preferable to not allowing the pushed creatures to resist.
I too would tend to use the squeezing rules.
In the case of polymorph/wildshape etc .. I would have the larger creature expand into the spaces occupied by the creatures around it, they would not get pushed back.i.e. polymorph is not a quick way to push a bunch of enemies off a cliff (and the enemies couldn't use it against the party either).
In addition, I would consider the creature that changed form to be squeezed until they have the area they control free of obstructions - whether those obstructions are other creatures or a wall or other structure.
I think that comes closest to RAW since there is no rule about creatures occupying the same space or automatically pushing other creatures - only voluntarily ending their turn there. The squeezing rules handle the limitations on the shape changed creature. This makes more sense if you consider that the space occupied by a creature represents the space they immediately control and not necessarily the space occupied by such a creature.
Note that most of the size changing effects for which limitations are described (Enlarge/Reduce, rune knight, giant barbarian) simply say that you can't change size or that the size change is limited to the available space.
Notice how Moving Around Other Creatures doesn't make any mention of squeezing while moving through another creature's space.
So the most popular rulings favor squeezing rules over pushing targets (which seems more balanced). Would only the larger creature be squeezing? not everyone else?
I would likely not require it for anyone else unless they decided to stay in the same spot at the end of their turn.
I would likely consider any creature occupying another creatures space as being squeezed since they might lack room to swing and manipulate weapons appropriately. If they want to avoid the penalties they could move first. On the other hand, that is likely a ruling since the rules don't explicitly cover the situation.
"A creature's space reflects the area it needs to fight effectively." .. I interpret this to mean that a creature that doesn't have the full space available to them then they can't fight effectively. The rules on squeezing come next. If the creature's space is partly occupied then they are effectively being squeezed into an area smaller than the area they need to control to fight effectively ... so I would apply the squeezing rule to a creature where part of the space they would normally occupy is filled with another creature or obstacle.
Rules:
"Space
A creature’s space is the area in feet that it effectively controls in combat, not an expression of its physical dimensions. A typical Medium creature isn’t 5 feet wide, for example, but it does control a space that wide. If a Medium hobgoblin stands in a 5-foot-wide doorway, other creatures can’t get through unless the hobgoblin lets them.
A creature’s space also reflects the area it needs to fight effectively. For that reason, there’s a limit to the number of creatures that can surround another creature in combat. Assuming Medium combatants, eight creatures can fit in a 5-foot radius around another one.
Because larger creatures take up more space, fewer of them can surround a creature. If four Large creatures crowd around a Medium or smaller one, there’s little room for anyone else. In contrast, as many as twenty Medium creatures can surround a Gargantuan one.
Squeezing into a Smaller Space
A creature can squeeze through a space that is large enough for a creature one size smaller than it. Thus, a Large creature can squeeze through a passage that’s only 5 feet wide. While squeezing through a space, a creature must spend 1 extra foot for every foot it moves there, and it has disadvantage on attack rolls and Dexterity saving throws. Attack rolls against the creature have advantage while it’s in the smaller space."
Having creatures sharing space to squeeze could lead to tactic that easily take advantage of it for exemple; readying a spell when an ally move through the space of a hostile creature at least two sizes larger or smaller than it in order to get disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws against such spell.