Penguins do not swim under water they actually fly.
The idea of shunting the character to the closest unoccupied space outside the water could be problematic
If the character is 1000 ft below the surface. You essentially just created a teleport spell.
And if your only going to shunt them to the next closest water filled area is pretty useless. It does waste the spell so that is ok. You were doing it in an emergency anyway.
Letting them get pushed to the surface would answer most if any problems.
Penguins do not swim under water they actually fly.
The idea of shunting the character to the closest unoccupied space outside the water could be problematic
If the character is 1000 ft below the surface. You essentially just created a teleport spell.
And if your only going to shunt them to the next closest water filled area is pretty useless. It does waste the spell so that is ok. You were doing it in an emergency anyway.
Letting them get pushed to the surface would answer most if any problems.
Quick WIS check, DM choice, might get a player that little voice that nether confirms or denies if it’s wise, but imparts a bit of knowledge so as to put one’s finger on the scale.
I would take the explanation of why as a measure of what the players logic was and play it from there.
I’d rule willing creature takes 3d6 force damage, and is instantly shunted to the nearest unoccupied space that is not liquid.
Force damage does not make sense since water is not a magical force like Magic MIssile or Eldritch Blast. This is not an Ethereal creature that happened to stop inside a solid surface. I think it would be reasonable that 3d6 bludgeoning damage occurs, which would be reduced by being in Gaseous state.
I’d rule willing creature takes 3d6 force damage, and is instantly shunted to the nearest unoccupied space that is not liquid.
Force damage does not make sense since water is not a magical force like Magic MIssile or Eldritch Blast. This is not an Ethereal creature that happened to stop inside a solid surface. I think it would be reasonable that 3d6 bludgeoning damage occurs, which would be reduced by being in Gaseous state.
I mean, we are debating rulings here now, not rules. But as it goes etherealness uses force damage.
Real world physics don’t necessarily apply however buoyancy can be less than water pressure. Sometimes if deep enough gas would need to accumulate before its collective buoyancy exceeds the pressure on top of it. a gas form creature might still be able to walk on the sea bed though likely encumbered by the weight of water over them. If used this offensively then shoving multiple gas form creatures together could make them rise.
none of this is canon as RL can be either ignored or exaggerated by the DM. Could make a weird campaign though.
My point is that Etherealness is a magical planar effect. Water is just water, a totally mundane, everyday substance with varying degrees of salinity and animal poop in it. As such, any type of magical damage should not apply. Non-magical bludgeoning damage is therefore much more appropriate.
My point is that Etherealness is a magical planar effect. Water is just water, a totally mundane, everyday substance with varying degrees of salinity and animal poop in it. As such, any type of magical damage should not apply. Non-magical bludgeoning damage is therefore much more appropriate.
And everyday plain water is considered a solid to a form that turns into a gas. Plain water also has the ability to absorb gases within itself, dispersing it throughout the whole.
the reason for the force damage is based on how creatures that might materialize within a substance that is considered impenetrable to the creatures natural form is handled in other parts of the rules that handle similar conditions.
Turning into a gas at any depth of liquid should IMO impart some measure of damage to the form, and force the creature to abandon the new form, or be ejected from the offending substance.
My point is that Etherealness is a magical planar effect. Water is just water, a totally mundane, everyday substance with varying degrees of salinity and animal poop in it. As such, any type of magical damage should not apply. Non-magical bludgeoning damage is therefore much more appropriate.
[Snipped]
Turning into a gas at any depth of liquid should IMO impart some measure of damage to the form, and force the creature to abandon the new form, or be ejected from the offending substance.
This is why I argued for bludgeoning damage, which makes more sense since water is not magical, there are no extra-planar effects happening.
Force damage does not make sense here. A gaseous creature is one turned into gas. Gasses disperse in liquid all the time: just look at all the Carbon dioxide that is currently acidifying the world's oceans as we speak. And without Oxygen created by above-water plant life dispersing into water, there would be a lot less fish in the sea. This is a totally natural process that happens without any of us noticing most of the time. While I would agree that some damage would reasonably happen when a gas with an Intelligence score gets surrounded by water, that water is still just a mundane substance. Force damage is described explicitly in the PHB as "pure magical energy focused into damaging form." (PHB pg 196)
My point is that Etherealness is a magical planar effect. Water is just water, a totally mundane, everyday substance with varying degrees of salinity and animal poop in it. As such, any type of magical damage should not apply. Non-magical bludgeoning damage is therefore much more appropriate.
[Snipped]
Turning into a gas at any depth of liquid should IMO impart some measure of damage to the form, and force the creature to abandon the new form, or be ejected from the offending substance.
This is why I argued for bludgeoning damage, which makes more sense since water is not magical, there are no extra-planar effects happening.
Force damage does not make sense here. A gaseous creature is one turned into gas. Gasses disperse in liquid all the time: just look at all the Carbon dioxide that is currently acidifying the world's oceans as we speak. And without Oxygen created by above-water plant life dispersing into water, there would be a lot less fish in the sea. This is a totally natural process that happens without any of us noticing most of the time. While I would agree that some damage would reasonably happen when a gas with an Intelligence score gets surrounded by water, that water is still just a mundane substance. Force damage is described explicitly in the PHB as "pure magical energy focused into damaging form." (PHB pg 196)
My point is that Etherealness is a magical planar effect. Water is just water, a totally mundane, everyday substance with varying degrees of salinity and animal poop in it. As such, any type of magical damage should not apply. Non-magical bludgeoning damage is therefore much more appropriate.
And everyday plain water is considered a solid to a form that turns into a gas. Plain water also has the ability to absorb gases within itself, dispersing it throughout the whole.
the reason for the force damage is based on how creatures that might materialize within a substance that is considered impenetrable to the creatures natural form is handled in other parts of the rules that handle similar conditions.
Turning into a gas at any depth of liquid should IMO impart some measure of damage to the form, and force the creature to abandon the new form, or be ejected from the offending substance.
My point is that Etherealness is a magical planar effect. Water is just water, a totally mundane, everyday substance with varying degrees of salinity and animal poop in it. As such, any type of magical damage should not apply. Non-magical bludgeoning damage is therefore much more appropriate.
And my point was simply that spells and other game effects that have the opportunity of leaving you inside of a solid often tell you that you are shunted out. it is a reasonable ruling.
My point is that Etherealness is a magical planar effect. Water is just water, a totally mundane, everyday substance with varying degrees of salinity and animal poop in it. As such, any type of magical damage should not apply. Non-magical bludgeoning damage is therefore much more appropriate.
And my point was simply that spells and other game effects that have the opportunity of leaving you inside of a solid often tell you that you are shunted out. it is a reasonable ruling.
Shunting out does not automatically mean you should be taking Force damage, though. Applying the effect related to Etherealness, a planar travel-type spell, to the interaction between a gas and a liquid is not balanced from a world-building perspective unless you're arguing that the liquid itself is pure magic, similar to the way that Force Wall or Magic Missile are; in which case, it would no longer be water.
I'm sorry that you aren't understanding me but I am not spending more time on trying to explain it. The exact damage is irrelevant, the shunting is what I've referenced over and over in my answer.
Penguins do not swim under water they actually fly.
The idea of shunting the character to the closest unoccupied space outside the water could be problematic
If the character is 1000 ft below the surface. You essentially just created a teleport spell.
And if your only going to shunt them to the next closest water filled area is pretty useless. It does waste the spell so that is ok. You were doing it in an emergency anyway.
Letting them get pushed to the surface would answer most if any problems.
Quick WIS check, DM choice, might get a player that little voice that nether confirms or denies if it’s wise, but imparts a bit of knowledge so as to put one’s finger on the scale.
I would take the explanation of why as a measure of what the players logic was and play it from there.
Force damage does not make sense since water is not a magical force like Magic MIssile or Eldritch Blast. This is not an Ethereal creature that happened to stop inside a solid surface. I think it would be reasonable that 3d6 bludgeoning damage occurs, which would be reduced by being in Gaseous state.
I mean, we are debating rulings here now, not rules. But as it goes etherealness uses force damage.
But if you look closely at the entire topic and perceptions of all who have their each unique approach, mine just gives it a KISS.
and fits well within RAW, and is broad enough for a player or DM to figure the rest out.
Real world physics don’t necessarily apply however buoyancy can be less than water pressure. Sometimes if deep enough gas would need to accumulate before its collective buoyancy exceeds the pressure on top of it.
a gas form creature might still be able to walk on the sea bed though likely encumbered by the weight of water over them. If used this offensively then shoving multiple gas form creatures together could make them rise.
none of this is canon as RL can be either ignored or exaggerated by the DM. Could make a weird campaign though.
My point is that Etherealness is a magical planar effect. Water is just water, a totally mundane, everyday substance with varying degrees of salinity and animal poop in it. As such, any type of magical damage should not apply. Non-magical bludgeoning damage is therefore much more appropriate.
And everyday plain water is considered a solid to a form that turns into a gas. Plain water also has the ability to absorb gases within itself, dispersing it throughout the whole.
the reason for the force damage is based on how creatures that might materialize within a substance that is considered impenetrable to the creatures natural form is handled in other parts of the rules that handle similar conditions.
Turning into a gas at any depth of liquid should IMO impart some measure of damage to the form, and force the creature to abandon the new form, or be ejected from the offending substance.
This is why I argued for bludgeoning damage, which makes more sense since water is not magical, there are no extra-planar effects happening.
Force damage does not make sense here. A gaseous creature is one turned into gas. Gasses disperse in liquid all the time: just look at all the Carbon dioxide that is currently acidifying the world's oceans as we speak. And without Oxygen created by above-water plant life dispersing into water, there would be a lot less fish in the sea. This is a totally natural process that happens without any of us noticing most of the time. While I would agree that some damage would reasonably happen when a gas with an Intelligence score gets surrounded by water, that water is still just a mundane substance. Force damage is described explicitly in the PHB as "pure magical energy focused into damaging form." (PHB pg 196)
Everyone is free to rule as they wish,
it is just a game.
And my point was simply that spells and other game effects that have the opportunity of leaving you inside of a solid often tell you that you are shunted out. it is a reasonable ruling.
Shunting out does not automatically mean you should be taking Force damage, though. Applying the effect related to Etherealness, a planar travel-type spell, to the interaction between a gas and a liquid is not balanced from a world-building perspective unless you're arguing that the liquid itself is pure magic, similar to the way that Force Wall or Magic Missile are; in which case, it would no longer be water.
I'm sorry that you aren't understanding me but I am not spending more time on trying to explain it. The exact damage is irrelevant, the shunting is what I've referenced over and over in my answer.