No you don’t know the location, unless a DM says your passive or active perception check can beat the passive stealth check of a creature that to a blind creature is heavily obscured, almost invisible one might say.
Passive stealth is Not A Thing. You are not hidden until you take an action to hide.
I don’t think they did, in fact it seems they understands that an unseen creature’s location is known unless it is hidden: both unseen and unheard. It says it right in the section that you linked. You know the location of creatures you can hear.
No you don’t know the location, unless a DM says your passive or active perception check can beat the passive stealth check of a creature that to a blind creature is heavily obscured, almost invisible one might say.
There's no such thing as a passive stealth check. The closest you get to that is a character that's guaranteed a minimum result (such as a high-level rogue with proficiency). Even then, Stealth is only used if you take the Hide action, not passively.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
Were you trying to point to a rule that said that a unseen creature's position was known?
From your own official source: "The rules on hiding in the “Dexterity” section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules."
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
Couple of points to unpack here:
-The Passive Checks section explicitly states Hiding is covered in its own section (meaning it falls outside of the Passive Checks rule unless it refers back to it in some way). -Hiding makes Stealth an active check, not a passive. -Making noise gives away your position, meaning it's explicitly stated a creature knows the location of another that's making noise they can hear.
That seals what we've been talking about rather nicely. Thanks for that link!
From your own official source: "The rules on hiding in the “Dexterity” section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules."
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
Couple of points to unpack here:
-The Passive Checks section explicitly states Hiding is covered in its own section (meaning it falls outside of the Passive Checks rule unless it refers back to it in some way). -Hiding makes Stealth an active check, not a passive. -Making noise gives away your position, meaning it's explicitly stated a creature knows the location of another that's making noise they can hear.
That seals what we've been talking about rather nicely. Thanks for that link!
Nope, you have to perceive where the creature is, you don’t get to know automatically.
You ether can actively or passively attempt to decern the general area, and narrow the area to guess in.
RAW does NOT automatically grant success when you are blind and have to listen for where the enemy is.
Unless you have a high ass perception skill, you still have to GUESS.
From your own official source: "The rules on hiding in the “Dexterity” section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules."
HIDING
The DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, make a Dexterity (Stealth) check. Until you are discovered or you stop hiding, that check's total is contested by the Wisdom (Perception) check of any creature that actively searches for signs of your presence.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you. However, under certain circumstances, the DM might allow you to stay hidden as you approach a creature that is distracted, allowing you to gain advantage on an attack roll before you are seen.
Passive Perception. When you hide, there's a chance someone will notice you even if they aren't searching. To determine whether such a creature notices you, the DM compares your Dexterity (Stealth) check with that creature's passive Wisdom (Perception) score, which equals 10 + the creature's Wisdom modifier, as well as any other bonuses or penalties. If the creature has advantage, add 5. For disadvantage, subtract 5. For example, if a 1st-level character (with a proficiency bonus of +2) has a Wisdom of 15 (a +2 modifier) and proficiency in Perception, he or she has a passive Wisdom (Perception) of 14.
What Can You See? One of the main factors in determining whether you can find a hidden creature or object is how well you can see in an area, which might be lightly or heavily obscured, as explained in chapter 8.
You can't hide from a creature that can see you clearly, and you give away your position if you make noise, such as shouting a warning or knocking over a vase. An invisible creature can always try to hide. Signs of its passage might still be noticed, and it does have to stay quiet.
Couple of points to unpack here:
-The Passive Checks section explicitly states Hiding is covered in its own section (meaning it falls outside of the Passive Checks rule unless it refers back to it in some way). -Hiding makes Stealth an active check, not a passive. -Making noise gives away your position, meaning it's explicitly stated a creature knows the location of another that's making noise they can hear.
That seals what we've been talking about rather nicely. Thanks for that link!
Nope, you have to perceive where the creature is, you don’t get to know automatically.
You ether can actively or passively attempt to decern the general area, and narrow the area to guess in.
RAW does NOT automatically grant success when you are blind and have to listen for where the enemy is.
Unless you have a high ass perception skill, you still have to GUESS.
You only need to perceive if the creature is hidden. Which means a creature needs to take an action to attempt to hide (unless it has a feature that allows a Hide attempt as a Bonus action like a Rogue)
Not being able to see the creature does not make them hidden so no perceiving is necessary. Otherwise the rules wouldn’t say “An invisible creature can always try to hide”
Note how for a creature that is invisible it states: “For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured.”
A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.
The part that states: “A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.”
So, a creature that is blinded imparts both heavily obscured and total cover to all objects, creatures, and whatever to the rest of the blinded creatures world, which by default grants the invisible condition to every thing but the blinded creature.
Now you have to plug that bit of info into the unseen attackers and targets, and we are at the bit that everyone thinks is automatically a success, targeting a creature you can hear but not see.
Perception
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.
So, with more RAW to digest, and the fact an invisible creature ( or one concealed by way of another creature having been blinded ) it becomes a contest of hide and seek, and as per the totality of RAW a DM or player could use the passive ability checks to determine the outcome.
And now we are right back to the beginning, can a blinded caster fire a Lighting Bolt at an enemy and auto-hit, by RAW nope, but the DM is the final rules decider and can rule as they wish.
( Note: that’s why some DM just don’t really bother with the whole mess and let things slide, as the ability to effectively rule the situation by the rules that are scattered throughout the game requires a fair bit of research and analysis of how it all works and fits together. )
It is ok to rule differently than the rules. It is problematic to try to use rules to justify ruling in a non-RAW way.
Blindness does not impart cover because blindness is not an obstacle. “For the purposes of hiding” does work in that sentence. It mean something. It means that since creatures can only attempt to hide if they are heavily obscured, they can attempt to hide if they are invisible without that requirement.
So, with more RAW to digest, and the fact an invisible creature ( or one concealed by way of another creature having been blinded ) it becomes a contest of hide and seek, and as per the totality of RAW a DM or player could use the passive ability checks to determine the outcome.
The rules for finding a hidden object (or creature) are only applicable to things that are hidden. Being blind does not render other creatures hidden.
Think of this. An archer readies to shoot an arrow and then closes their eyes. They are now Blinded, but the target they could shoot at before is still able to be shot. They just have disadvantage on the shot due to no longer being able to see them.
Like the others have said, it's okay if your home games rule against RAW. But that doesn't make your rulings RAW.
No. D&D has a definition of blind. You just pointed a big flashlight at the whole problem. You are so hung up on what you want the result to be that you’ll use anything to prove it. Blinded has only one definition we need:
A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.
If there was only the blind character and his target in the room i could "see" the blind character hearing them if they do not take the hide action. Or move silently to another location.
But, if there are any other people in the room they should also have to try to hide so as not to make ANY noise. Otherwise the blind character is hearing everyone else in the room and could actually accidentally target them instead.
Trying to passively or even actively hear a specific target in a combat area should be close to impossible by any logical standard. But people will die on the cross of RAW.
The lightning bolt will hit everyone in its line of casting but if that line is off "target" too far then it can miss its intended target. The caster could also just randomly cast a fireball in a direction and hit a bunch of people.
That whole idea of peoples senses getting more acute with the loss of one, like hearing if you can not see, takes a LONG time to actually appear to happen. And actually does not happen. You just learn to use what you have better. Your hearing does not get better.
Trying to passively or even actively hear a specific target in a combat area should be close to impossible by any logical standard. But people will die on the cross of RAW.
I think you're missing the point, which is: rule how you want but the RAW isn't unclear. RAW isn't logical in many places, and knowing the location of creatures is one of them.
If there was only the blind character and his target in the room i could "see" the blind character hearing them if they do not take the hide action. Or move silently to another location.
But, if there are any other people in the room they should also have to try to hide so as not to make ANY noise. Otherwise the blind character is hearing everyone else in the room and could actually accidentally target them instead.
Trying to passively or even actively hear a specific target in a combat area should be close to impossible by any logical standard. But people will die on the cross of RAW.
The lightning bolt will hit everyone in its line of casting but if that line is off "target" too far then it can miss its intended target. The caster could also just randomly cast a fireball in a direction and hit a bunch of people.
That whole idea of peoples senses getting more acute with the loss of one, like hearing if you can not see, takes a LONG time to actually appear to happen. And actually does not happen. You just learn to use what you have better. Your hearing does not get better.
5E rules are not based on logic or reality. They are a streamlined set of game mechanics for ease of use by new players while trying to keep a minimum of complexity for more experienced players.
For some it has been ruled that if one person in a party can see a hidden character everyone in the party can see him.
Does that include the blind character? If even one person in the party can see the enemy the blind guy can see him also.
If one party member can see in the dark does that let all the others know were the enemies are?
As you can see i am not a great fan of the Advantage/Disadvantage rule. It was added for simplicity I understand but it tends to know reflect all situations well. A DC check would reflect things better. ( or gasp! A negative modifier to the to hit roll.)
I would not rule one person seeing a hidden creature would allow all party members to see the hidden creature.
But if a perception check was needed to find that creature it would be reasonable to let that party member help the others find it.
But as for one party member seeing in the dark letting other characters know where the enemies are, they would know automatically by the rules assuming the creatures were not hidden. But they'd have disadvantage on attack rolls against those creatures.
And I can understand your dislike of the RAW adv/dis rule. (Personally it hasn't bothered me yet; though maybe it will someday.) Though with the DC, could do that by having the enemies hidden to start with. (Nothing says they couldn't have taken the hide action prior to coming across the party. Goblins with darkvision would probably plan to be stealthy while coming up on a blind party for example.) And the negative modifier is kind of already done by disadvantage. (Far less likely to crit, whereas a flat minus would still have the same odds.)
For some it has been ruled that if one person in a party can see a hidden character everyone in the party can see him.
Does that include the blind character? If even one person in the party can see the enemy the blind guy can see him also.
If one party member can see in the dark does that let all the others know were the enemies are?
As you can see i am not a great fan of the Advantage/Disadvantage rule. It was added for simplicity I understand but it tends to know reflect all situations well. A DC check would reflect things better. ( or gasp! A negative modifier to the to hit roll.)
For me, the first question I would rule only the party member that can see the creature can see them. Everyone else still has disadvantage.
Second question the blind guy can’t see either way, the condition overrides it, if you allow all to see if one player sees. I wouldn’t so see answer one.
third question if it’s just seeing in the dark via darkvision or magical darkness via Devils Sight, then no. Characters without darkvision/DS can’t see and would have disadvantage. If the creature was also hidden, and one sees the creature, see the first question’s answer.
It seems to me blindness and magical darkness only provides conditions like disadvantage making it harder to hit someone. Let's look at it in a different light... You're in a 100'x100' room somewhere in the center. There's a door on the north end of this big room centerish on the north wall. You're facing south when the big bad cast a heightened/extended (whatever meta magic that increases the diameter) Darkness that covers the entire room (or he blinds you, pick either). You decide to run away. Do you allow them to turn around and run straight to the door they cannot see? So in this case, how do you determine which way they actually run?
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Passive stealth is Not A Thing. You are not hidden until you take an action to hide.
There's no such thing as a passive stealth check. The closest you get to that is a character that's guaranteed a minimum result (such as a high-level rogue with proficiency). Even then, Stealth is only used if you take the Hide action, not passively.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/using-ability-scores#PassiveChecks
oh great!
Were you trying to point to a rule that said that a unseen creature's position was known?
From your own official source: "The rules on hiding in the “Dexterity” section below rely on passive checks, as do the exploration rules."
Couple of points to unpack here:
-The Passive Checks section explicitly states Hiding is covered in its own section (meaning it falls outside of the Passive Checks rule unless it refers back to it in some way).
-Hiding makes Stealth an active check, not a passive.
-Making noise gives away your position, meaning it's explicitly stated a creature knows the location of another that's making noise they can hear.
That seals what we've been talking about rather nicely. Thanks for that link!
Nope, you have to perceive where the creature is, you don’t get to know automatically.
You ether can actively or passively attempt to decern the general area, and narrow the area to guess in.
RAW does NOT automatically grant success when you are blind and have to listen for where the enemy is.
Unless you have a high ass perception skill, you still have to GUESS.
You only need to perceive if the creature is hidden. Which means a creature needs to take an action to attempt to hide (unless it has a feature that allows a Hide attempt as a Bonus action like a Rogue)
Not being able to see the creature does not make them hidden so no perceiving is necessary. Otherwise the rules wouldn’t say “An invisible creature can always try to hide”
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/appendix-a-conditions#Invisible
Note how for a creature that is invisible it states: “For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured.”
A heavily obscured area--such as darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage--blocks vision entirely. A creature effectively suffers from the blinded condition when trying to see something in that area.
Then you have this:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/basic-rules/combat#TotalCover
The part that states: “A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle.”
So, a creature that is blinded imparts both heavily obscured and total cover to all objects, creatures, and whatever to the rest of the blinded creatures world, which by default grants the invisible condition to every thing but the blinded creature.
Now you have to plug that bit of info into the unseen attackers and targets, and we are at the bit that everyone thinks is automatically a success, targeting a creature you can hear but not see.
Perception
Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses. For example, you might try to hear a conversation through a closed door, eavesdrop under an open window, or hear monsters moving stealthily in the forest. Or you might try to spot things that are obscured or easy to miss, whether they are orcs lying in ambush on a road, thugs hiding in the shadows of an alley, or candlelight under a closed secret door.
So, with more RAW to digest, and the fact an invisible creature ( or one concealed by way of another creature having been blinded ) it becomes a contest of hide and seek, and as per the totality of RAW a DM or player could use the passive ability checks to determine the outcome.
And now we are right back to the beginning, can a blinded caster fire a Lighting Bolt at an enemy and auto-hit, by RAW nope, but the DM is the final rules decider and can rule as they wish.
( Note: that’s why some DM just don’t really bother with the whole mess and let things slide, as the ability to effectively rule the situation by the rules that are scattered throughout the game requires a fair bit of research and analysis of how it all works and fits together. )
It is ok to rule differently than the rules. It is problematic to try to use rules to justify ruling in a non-RAW way.
Blindness does not impart cover because blindness is not an obstacle. “For the purposes of hiding” does work in that sentence. It mean something. It means that since creatures can only attempt to hide if they are heavily obscured, they can attempt to hide if they are invisible without that requirement.
The rules for finding a hidden object (or creature) are only applicable to things that are hidden. Being blind does not render other creatures hidden.
Dictionary Definitions =/= D&D Definitions
Think of this. An archer readies to shoot an arrow and then closes their eyes. They are now Blinded, but the target they could shoot at before is still able to be shot. They just have disadvantage on the shot due to no longer being able to see them.
Like the others have said, it's okay if your home games rule against RAW. But that doesn't make your rulings RAW.
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No. D&D has a definition of blind. You just pointed a big flashlight at the whole problem. You are so hung up on what you want the result to be that you’ll use anything to prove it. Blinded has only one definition we need:
If there was only the blind character and his target in the room i could "see" the blind character hearing them if they do not take the hide action. Or move silently to another location.
But, if there are any other people in the room they should also have to try to hide so as not to make ANY noise. Otherwise the blind character is hearing everyone else in the room and could actually accidentally target them instead.
Trying to passively or even actively hear a specific target in a combat area should be close to impossible by any logical standard. But people will die on the cross of RAW.
The lightning bolt will hit everyone in its line of casting but if that line is off "target" too far then it can miss its intended target.
The caster could also just randomly cast a fireball in a direction and hit a bunch of people.
That whole idea of peoples senses getting more acute with the loss of one, like hearing if you can not see, takes a LONG time to actually appear to happen. And actually does not happen. You just learn to use what you have better. Your hearing does not get better.
I think you're missing the point, which is: rule how you want but the RAW isn't unclear. RAW isn't logical in many places, and knowing the location of creatures is one of them.
5E rules are not based on logic or reality. They are a streamlined set of game mechanics for ease of use by new players while trying to keep a minimum of complexity for more experienced players.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
We have reached the point in the discourse where we are arguing about what words mean. These are the least satisfying discussions about rules.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Here is an illogical question.
For some it has been ruled that if one person in a party can see a hidden character everyone in the party can see him.
Does that include the blind character? If even one person in the party can see the enemy the blind guy can see him also.
If one party member can see in the dark does that let all the others know were the enemies are?
As you can see i am not a great fan of the Advantage/Disadvantage rule. It was added for simplicity I understand but it tends to know reflect all situations well. A DC check would reflect things better. ( or gasp! A negative modifier to the to hit roll.)
I would not rule one person seeing a hidden creature would allow all party members to see the hidden creature.
But if a perception check was needed to find that creature it would be reasonable to let that party member help the others find it.
But as for one party member seeing in the dark letting other characters know where the enemies are, they would know automatically by the rules assuming the creatures were not hidden. But they'd have disadvantage on attack rolls against those creatures.
And I can understand your dislike of the RAW adv/dis rule. (Personally it hasn't bothered me yet; though maybe it will someday.) Though with the DC, could do that by having the enemies hidden to start with. (Nothing says they couldn't have taken the hide action prior to coming across the party. Goblins with darkvision would probably plan to be stealthy while coming up on a blind party for example.) And the negative modifier is kind of already done by disadvantage. (Far less likely to crit, whereas a flat minus would still have the same odds.)
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For me, the first question I would rule only the party member that can see the creature can see them. Everyone else still has disadvantage.
Second question the blind guy can’t see either way, the condition overrides it, if you allow all to see if one player sees. I wouldn’t so see answer one.
third question if it’s just seeing in the dark via darkvision or magical darkness via Devils Sight, then no. Characters without darkvision/DS can’t see and would have disadvantage. If the creature was also hidden, and one sees the creature, see the first question’s answer.
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It seems to me blindness and magical darkness only provides conditions like disadvantage making it harder to hit someone. Let's look at it in a different light... You're in a 100'x100' room somewhere in the center. There's a door on the north end of this big room centerish on the north wall. You're facing south when the big bad cast a heightened/extended (whatever meta magic that increases the diameter) Darkness that covers the entire room (or he blinds you, pick either). You decide to run away. Do you allow them to turn around and run straight to the door they cannot see? So in this case, how do you determine which way they actually run?