One of my players has tried bending the 5e rules, claiming he has a "source" for the mechanics, but has yet to show this source. I have repeatedly reminded we're using 5e, and have shown him the wording for the various things in question. Specifically, the creatures that die which he uses Raise Dead or similar. He's turned dead targets into Zombies, but has used the stats for the dead Wights rather than them becoming Zombies, and has taken dead cultists and made their souls into Ghosts, which we all know is not possible. This is not about sitting down with him and having a serious talk.....that's been done. There have been nearly embarrassing scenes during sessions due to his tactics, so I sat yesterday on my day off from work and went through a mental chess game of how to counter all his "minions", save one (who is functioning correctly as a Zombie and will play a specific role in the campaign later). I came to the realization that the Party has yet to have a real sense of danger in the campaign, so at their currently level of 7, the next two combats will put some hurt on them, and I want to specifically target all of the undead following this PC around. All of the undead were loyal to the BBG before they were killed. Ghosts can be dispersed to the Ethereal Plane or dispatched with a Legendary Ethereal silvered blade. Was thinking of weaving in the story that the Drow "army" they encounter in one of the upcoming rooms of the dungeon recognize the undead as having once been one of their own and manage to "claim them back".........not to fight against the party, but to not be available to the PC. He'll have to start over finding undead to follow him around. Or I can simply kill off the undead, or most of them. There are 2 wights, 2 ghosts, and 3 or 4 zombies. One of those zombies will not be killed, as previously mentioned. The question is: how do I kill a wight and a zombie with certainty, and how do I dispel the ghosts in a way other than already stated? Or is there another idea?
You're the DM, right? Short answer is whatever you says goes. You want his minions dead? They're dead. You want to stop them from coming back? They don't come back. His class features don't work the way he thinks they do? Tough shit for him. Sounds like you're at the point where you really need to just put your foot down and remind him who runs the table.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Don't try to fight this battle on his terms. If he's doing something that isn't part of the rules your group has agreed to play by, then simply tell him he cannot do that. And if he's trying to claim that what he's doing is within the rules, make him provide proof. This is Dungeons & Dragons, not Calvinball.
And can you be specific about which spells he's trying to use, and what level/class? I'm assuming the 3rd level spells Animate Dead and Summon Undead? Or is he high enough level to upcast Create Undead using an 8th level spell slot? As far as I can tell, it's not possible to summon a Wight prior to character level 15.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
7th lvl Necromancer. It's not that he summoned a Wight....a Wight was killed and he Animated it, using its Wight stats.
Print out the stat block for Skeleton and Zombie. Give him the appropriate stat block for his minion to use. If he continues using the wrong stat block, tell him that you will be taking control of all his undead minions. He can describe what he wants them to do. If that's within their capability, you make the rolls for them. Give control back when he's demonstrated that he knows what his capabilities actually are, and that he can be trusted to manage them appropriately. Don't be afraid of putting on the training wheels if he needs structure to grow as a player.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The creatures names determine their stats. You can never create a Zombie with the stats of anything besides a Zombie. Just as I cannot be a human with the stats of a Storm Giant, you cannot become a zombie with the stats of a Wight. It does not matter what they were previously. I am sure the player is referencing some version of a house rule.
Zombies and Skeletons are made with one of these spells: 4th level Animate Dead, 5th Danse Macabre, 6th Negative Energy Flood, or 7th Finger of Death.
Reaper Spirits are made with the 4th level Spirit of Death.
Ghouls, Ghasts, Wights and Mummies are created by the spells 6th Circle of Undeath, 6th level spell Create Undead, though you may have to upcast it to get some of those.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I had a fellow player who loved to animate the recently dead to make into his minions.
The first time he walked into a town with them he discovered how the people treated them and those who brought them around.
After a while I, being a cleric of equal level to him, I would just put the undead right back down if they got a little to frisky or we got to close to other people.
As people have said, this isn't a "loophole" moment, particularly if you're the DM. This is a moment where you put the DM foot down, tell him that using that spell he gets Zombies or Skeletons running off the printed blocks, and he can take it or leave it. Especially if you've already tried to have one talk with him that went nowhere.
Personally, I'd also rule that any reanimated undead that gets destroyed has now become too badly damaged to be reanimated again. Finally, as has been noted, one story-based countermeasure for a player who wants to play the "undead army" card is to highlight that necromancy is considered a Very Bad Thing Done By Evil Wizards in your setting, and start tossing up some social obstacles and other roadblocks in civilized areas if they make a habit of constantly making minions and keeping them around all the time.
If you look past the valid advices of interfering as a DM, you can opt to face the party with some NPC's that are paladins and clerics or possess abilities such as divine smite and turn undead. Whenever an undead is killed by radiant damage you can describe that the body of the undead is turned to dust as it is killed, ensuring he can't bring them back, and if the party slays the NPC's you can say they can't be made into undead creatures as the god they serve does not allow it, or something along those lines.
A wight corpse isn't a valid target to animate (and a wight isn't a valid result of using that spell). Even if you wanted to create undead (which a 7th level necromancer cannot do), you wouldn't use the corpse of a wight, you'd use what the spell actually calls for targeting.
It sounds like your player needs to re-read some spells.
Honestly I have a hard time imagining how this situation evolved to this point. The problematic player has been bald-faced lying to you and the rest of the table for a while now and I would hope this is obvious to everyone at the table by now. The problematic player has been spoken to about this and yet presumably their problematic behavior has continued. That or you are collaborating with the player to create an in game explanation of why their Wights and Ghosts are now Zombies and Skeletons. The fact that this thread was created however tells me that the problematic behavior has continued.
As others have said, as the DM there is no need for a loop hole or clever trick. As the DM you are the referee of the games rules and narrator of the games world. If you say "A rock falls and everyone dies" then a rock fell and everyone died.
There are many ways the destruction of the problematic character and/or summons could be achieved, either "within the rules" or via DM fiat. However considering the problematic player wasn't willing to cede any of their ill-gotten gains when they were spoken to, I doubt they would be more accepting of it happening in-game. I imagine any attempt to reign in the problematic player's power would either be met with outright refusal or more lying in an attempt to retain their power.
If it were me I would just kick them out of the table. If the problematic player is just someone you play D&D with and aren't otherwise connected with then it can be as simple as telling them they are no longer welcome. If the problematic player is a friend then you can stop the campaign saying it has gotten too stressful, then one on one explain to the problematic player that their behavior is part of why you stopped the campaign. If you still want to be friends tell them so and explain that you just don't want to play D&D with them anymore. Then you can invite everyone else back and either resume the old campaign without the problematic player or start a whole new campaign.
If you really must keep playing with them (you don't and really shouldn't) then I would do as Sigred suggests in post #6, maybe even go a bit further if their behavior continues. Have them hand over their character sheet so you can check that it was made correctly. Have them make their rolls in an app like DnDBeyond or Roll20, this way you can audit their rolls and ensure they are fair and applying the correct modifiers. It is possible the problematic player is only misrepresenting their summons, but I would not be surprised if they are misrepresenting other things as well.
Im pretty sure the only reasonable answer is that youre the DM, they can find another table. but if you are trying to compromise, the best thing is to say that flavor is free but the mechanics arent. you can say the zombie is a wight, but it cant do the things without being within the clearly outlined rules. if youve already had the serious conversation at the table, welcome them to come back some other time.
One of my players has tried bending the 5e rules, claiming he has a "source" for the mechanics, but has yet to show this source. I have repeatedly reminded we're using 5e, and have shown him the wording for the various things in question. Specifically, the creatures that die which he uses Raise Dead or similar. He's turned dead targets into Zombies, but has used the stats for the dead Wights rather than them becoming Zombies, and has taken dead cultists and made their souls into Ghosts, which we all know is not possible. This is not about sitting down with him and having a serious talk.....that's been done. There have been nearly embarrassing scenes during sessions due to his tactics, so I sat yesterday on my day off from work and went through a mental chess game of how to counter all his "minions", save one (who is functioning correctly as a Zombie and will play a specific role in the campaign later). I came to the realization that the Party has yet to have a real sense of danger in the campaign, so at their currently level of 7, the next two combats will put some hurt on them, and I want to specifically target all of the undead following this PC around. All of the undead were loyal to the BBG before they were killed. Ghosts can be dispersed to the Ethereal Plane or dispatched with a Legendary Ethereal silvered blade. Was thinking of weaving in the story that the Drow "army" they encounter in one of the upcoming rooms of the dungeon recognize the undead as having once been one of their own and manage to "claim them back".........not to fight against the party, but to not be available to the PC. He'll have to start over finding undead to follow him around. Or I can simply kill off the undead, or most of them. There are 2 wights, 2 ghosts, and 3 or 4 zombies. One of those zombies will not be killed, as previously mentioned. The question is: how do I kill a wight and a zombie with certainty, and how do I dispel the ghosts in a way other than already stated? Or is there another idea?
Make one of your badguys into a oathbreaker paladin. Steal his undead minion and jam it down his throat.
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
As the GM, you narrate the events in the game so when the players says "I cast Animate Dead on the wight, and make a wight", you say, "The corpse rises as a zombie."
If the player insists it's a wight, ignore him. When he says "my wight attacks" you say, "OK, your zombie attacks."
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
As a GM I have only one hard rule, that any rules that apply to the NPCs apply to PCs and vica versa. If a player is breaking the rules you as DM are within your rights to simply bar him and his tactics from the game. If you are unwilling, or unable to do this a firehose filled with holy water may be a viable alternative, or perhaps give the NPCs the ability to control all those undead
Ehhhhhh, well, they're stuck deep down in a massive dungeon, likely there for another 6 sessions. But I will utilize something silvered and holy water next session. Party will deal with a sizeable group of Drow, including a Mage.
There have been nearly embarrassing scenes during sessions due to his tactics, so I sat yesterday on my day off from work and went through a mental chess game of how to counter all his "minions", save one (who is functioning correctly as a Zombie and will play a specific role in the campaign later). I came to the realization that the Party has yet to have a real sense of danger in the campaign, so at their currently level of 7, the next two combats will put some hurt on them, and I want to specifically target all of the undead following this PC around. All of the undead were loyal to the BBG before they were killed. Ghosts can be dispersed to the Ethereal Plane or dispatched with a Legendary Ethereal silvered blade. Was thinking of weaving in the story that the Drow "army" they encounter in one of the upcoming rooms of the dungeon recognize the undead as having once been one of their own and manage to "claim them back".........not to fight against the party, but to not be available to the PC. He'll have to start over finding undead to follow him around. Or I can simply kill off the undead, or most of them. There are 2 wights, 2 ghosts, and 3 or 4 zombies. One of those zombies will not be killed, as previously mentioned. The question is: how do I kill a wight and a zombie with certainty, and how do I dispel the ghosts in a way other than already stated? Or is there another idea?
I would strongly dissuade this approach. The players at the table may interpret this as an approval for them to break rules and that you accept this as challenges for your game planning. Other players may now be inspired to find "creative" ways to implement their features in the hopes to generate interesting narratives at the table. Or at the very least, they may openly complain about how they are bounded by RAW but this one player is granted freedoms to shape the game world; and the original player may see this as a sign that they are the "lead character" and push to influence the campaign more. In summary, your proposed act could give off the appearance that you are rewarding play that is outside of the rules.
I echo other posters in this thread; the best course of action is to rule and hold to your ruling. At the table, pull out the spell description and read for the entire table the parameters for the type of undead the spell can create. Unless someone else at the table can present you a rule or point our something in the spell description you overlooked, then your ruling of the type of undead created is final. Do not accept the armor class, damage type, or any other features that are not on the stat block of the creature type (unless you choose to make the exception; but you are not obligated to do that). If the player states their "xxxxx" does something then chime in and say "Your Zombie does...." and use the stat blocks accordingly. Your argument is sound by using the spell description and the options that the spell description states.
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One of my players has tried bending the 5e rules, claiming he has a "source" for the mechanics, but has yet to show this source. I have repeatedly reminded we're using 5e, and have shown him the wording for the various things in question. Specifically, the creatures that die which he uses Raise Dead or similar. He's turned dead targets into Zombies, but has used the stats for the dead Wights rather than them becoming Zombies, and has taken dead cultists and made their souls into Ghosts, which we all know is not possible. This is not about sitting down with him and having a serious talk.....that's been done. There have been nearly embarrassing scenes during sessions due to his tactics, so I sat yesterday on my day off from work and went through a mental chess game of how to counter all his "minions", save one (who is functioning correctly as a Zombie and will play a specific role in the campaign later). I came to the realization that the Party has yet to have a real sense of danger in the campaign, so at their currently level of 7, the next two combats will put some hurt on them, and I want to specifically target all of the undead following this PC around. All of the undead were loyal to the BBG before they were killed. Ghosts can be dispersed to the Ethereal Plane or dispatched with a Legendary Ethereal silvered blade. Was thinking of weaving in the story that the Drow "army" they encounter in one of the upcoming rooms of the dungeon recognize the undead as having once been one of their own and manage to "claim them back".........not to fight against the party, but to not be available to the PC. He'll have to start over finding undead to follow him around. Or I can simply kill off the undead, or most of them. There are 2 wights, 2 ghosts, and 3 or 4 zombies. One of those zombies will not be killed, as previously mentioned. The question is: how do I kill a wight and a zombie with certainty, and how do I dispel the ghosts in a way other than already stated? Or is there another idea?
You're the DM, right? Short answer is whatever you says goes. You want his minions dead? They're dead. You want to stop them from coming back? They don't come back. His class features don't work the way he thinks they do? Tough shit for him. Sounds like you're at the point where you really need to just put your foot down and remind him who runs the table.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Don't try to fight this battle on his terms. If he's doing something that isn't part of the rules your group has agreed to play by, then simply tell him he cannot do that. And if he's trying to claim that what he's doing is within the rules, make him provide proof. This is Dungeons & Dragons, not Calvinball.
And can you be specific about which spells he's trying to use, and what level/class? I'm assuming the 3rd level spells Animate Dead and Summon Undead? Or is he high enough level to upcast Create Undead using an 8th level spell slot? As far as I can tell, it's not possible to summon a Wight prior to character level 15.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
7th lvl Necromancer. It's not that he summoned a Wight....a Wight was killed and he Animated it, using its Wight stats.
Print out the stat block for Skeleton and Zombie. Give him the appropriate stat block for his minion to use. If he continues using the wrong stat block, tell him that you will be taking control of all his undead minions. He can describe what he wants them to do. If that's within their capability, you make the rolls for them. Give control back when he's demonstrated that he knows what his capabilities actually are, and that he can be trusted to manage them appropriately. Don't be afraid of putting on the training wheels if he needs structure to grow as a player.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The creatures names determine their stats. You can never create a Zombie with the stats of anything besides a Zombie. Just as I cannot be a human with the stats of a Storm Giant, you cannot become a zombie with the stats of a Wight. It does not matter what they were previously. I am sure the player is referencing some version of a house rule.
Zombies and Skeletons are made with one of these spells: 4th level Animate Dead, 5th Danse Macabre, 6th Negative Energy Flood, or 7th Finger of Death.
Reaper Spirits are made with the 4th level Spirit of Death.
Ghouls, Ghasts, Wights and Mummies are created by the spells 6th Circle of Undeath, 6th level spell Create Undead, though you may have to upcast it to get some of those.
If you're the DM you control the stats of NPCs, not the player.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
No loop hole needed, it will just happen again and again, stand you ground or boot them from the game.
I am so glad I do not have to play with players like this.
CENSORSHIP IS THE TOOL OF COWARDS and WANNA BE TYRANTS.
I had a fellow player who loved to animate the recently dead to make into his minions.
The first time he walked into a town with them he discovered how the people treated them and those who brought them around.
After a while I, being a cleric of equal level to him, I would just put the undead right back down if they got a little to frisky or we got to close to other people.
As people have said, this isn't a "loophole" moment, particularly if you're the DM. This is a moment where you put the DM foot down, tell him that using that spell he gets Zombies or Skeletons running off the printed blocks, and he can take it or leave it. Especially if you've already tried to have one talk with him that went nowhere.
Personally, I'd also rule that any reanimated undead that gets destroyed has now become too badly damaged to be reanimated again. Finally, as has been noted, one story-based countermeasure for a player who wants to play the "undead army" card is to highlight that necromancy is considered a Very Bad Thing Done By Evil Wizards in your setting, and start tossing up some social obstacles and other roadblocks in civilized areas if they make a habit of constantly making minions and keeping them around all the time.
If you look past the valid advices of interfering as a DM, you can opt to face the party with some NPC's that are paladins and clerics or possess abilities such as divine smite and turn undead. Whenever an undead is killed by radiant damage you can describe that the body of the undead is turned to dust as it is killed, ensuring he can't bring them back, and if the party slays the NPC's you can say they can't be made into undead creatures as the god they serve does not allow it, or something along those lines.
A wight corpse isn't a valid target to animate (and a wight isn't a valid result of using that spell). Even if you wanted to create undead (which a 7th level necromancer cannot do), you wouldn't use the corpse of a wight, you'd use what the spell actually calls for targeting.
It sounds like your player needs to re-read some spells.
Honestly I have a hard time imagining how this situation evolved to this point. The problematic player has been bald-faced lying to you and the rest of the table for a while now and I would hope this is obvious to everyone at the table by now. The problematic player has been spoken to about this and yet presumably their problematic behavior has continued. That or you are collaborating with the player to create an in game explanation of why their Wights and Ghosts are now Zombies and Skeletons. The fact that this thread was created however tells me that the problematic behavior has continued.
As others have said, as the DM there is no need for a loop hole or clever trick. As the DM you are the referee of the games rules and narrator of the games world. If you say "A rock falls and everyone dies" then a rock fell and everyone died.
There are many ways the destruction of the problematic character and/or summons could be achieved, either "within the rules" or via DM fiat. However considering the problematic player wasn't willing to cede any of their ill-gotten gains when they were spoken to, I doubt they would be more accepting of it happening in-game. I imagine any attempt to reign in the problematic player's power would either be met with outright refusal or more lying in an attempt to retain their power.
If it were me I would just kick them out of the table. If the problematic player is just someone you play D&D with and aren't otherwise connected with then it can be as simple as telling them they are no longer welcome. If the problematic player is a friend then you can stop the campaign saying it has gotten too stressful, then one on one explain to the problematic player that their behavior is part of why you stopped the campaign. If you still want to be friends tell them so and explain that you just don't want to play D&D with them anymore. Then you can invite everyone else back and either resume the old campaign without the problematic player or start a whole new campaign.
If you really must keep playing with them (you don't and really shouldn't) then I would do as Sigred suggests in post #6, maybe even go a bit further if their behavior continues. Have them hand over their character sheet so you can check that it was made correctly. Have them make their rolls in an app like DnDBeyond or Roll20, this way you can audit their rolls and ensure they are fair and applying the correct modifiers. It is possible the problematic player is only misrepresenting their summons, but I would not be surprised if they are misrepresenting other things as well.
Im pretty sure the only reasonable answer is that youre the DM, they can find another table. but if you are trying to compromise, the best thing is to say that flavor is free but the mechanics arent. you can say the zombie is a wight, but it cant do the things without being within the clearly outlined rules. if youve already had the serious conversation at the table, welcome them to come back some other time.
Make one of your badguys into a oathbreaker paladin. Steal his undead minion and jam it down his throat.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
As the GM, you narrate the events in the game so when the players says "I cast Animate Dead on the wight, and make a wight", you say, "The corpse rises as a zombie."
If the player insists it's a wight, ignore him. When he says "my wight attacks" you say, "OK, your zombie attacks."
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
As a GM I have only one hard rule, that any rules that apply to the NPCs apply to PCs and vica versa. If a player is breaking the rules you as DM are within your rights to simply bar him and his tactics from the game. If you are unwilling, or unable to do this a firehose filled with holy water may be a viable alternative, or perhaps give the NPCs the ability to control all those undead
Ehhhhhh, well, they're stuck deep down in a massive dungeon, likely there for another 6 sessions. But I will utilize something silvered and holy water next session. Party will deal with a sizeable group of Drow, including a Mage.
I would strongly dissuade this approach. The players at the table may interpret this as an approval for them to break rules and that you accept this as challenges for your game planning. Other players may now be inspired to find "creative" ways to implement their features in the hopes to generate interesting narratives at the table. Or at the very least, they may openly complain about how they are bounded by RAW but this one player is granted freedoms to shape the game world; and the original player may see this as a sign that they are the "lead character" and push to influence the campaign more. In summary, your proposed act could give off the appearance that you are rewarding play that is outside of the rules.
I echo other posters in this thread; the best course of action is to rule and hold to your ruling. At the table, pull out the spell description and read for the entire table the parameters for the type of undead the spell can create. Unless someone else at the table can present you a rule or point our something in the spell description you overlooked, then your ruling of the type of undead created is final. Do not accept the armor class, damage type, or any other features that are not on the stat block of the creature type (unless you choose to make the exception; but you are not obligated to do that). If the player states their "xxxxx" does something then chime in and say "Your Zombie does...." and use the stat blocks accordingly. Your argument is sound by using the spell description and the options that the spell description states.