So yesterday's session had a fight with boss character. The boss was a level 15 Rune Knight fighter.
So the battle goes as such, PC fighter attacks and crits the Boss.
Boss as a reaction uses the cloud rune to transfer the hit and damage to another PC.
Bard as a reaction casts Silvery Barbs on the friendly fighter PC.
Disagreement happens. I said that the Silvery Barbs can't be use against a Cloud Rune because 1. You wouldn't negate a hit from an ally. 2. The only reason to cast is to prevent the additional damage that you wouldn't know until after the damage got applied.
Bard suggest that he should be able to Silverly Barbs as a reaction once the cloud rune activates because he would know the damage is going to be transferred. As well the bard saw this same thing happen just two rounds before so he would have a point.
I would appreciate any feedback and clarification. Thank you.
I would go with a no here, but not for the reasons you listed:
First:
1. you would know the result of the "to hit" roll before you had to use silvery barbs, since its trigger is "when a creature succeeds on a attack roll [shortened]"
2. there is no problem with Silvery Barbs against an ally.
But the timing seems to be off here:
As far as I am concerned the sequence goes like this:
Roll to hit
Determine it the hit succeeds
If it succeeds: You may now cast silvery barbs to make it not that.
Then: the attack "hits"
You may now use reactions like Cloud Rune or Features like Smite that thrigger when you hit a creature with an attack.
The damage is calculated and applyed.
So the Bard would have to use Silvery barbs right after the roll of the Fighter, but before the NPS Fighter would have to decide to use Cloud Rune.
All that said: If it makes for a cool moment, you might want to allow it once since this case probably won't come up all to often.
The Bard should be able to use silvery barbs on the Fighter and force a reroll on the attack that succeeds on the other character chosen by the Rune Knight Cloud Rune to becoming the target of the attack using the same roll.
Personally I agree that in the order of operations the window to cast SB closes once “on hit” effects are being applied. The d20 roll has been fully resolved at that point.
Assuming the attacker can be seen within range, exactly when can you use silvery barbs ? When you determine the attack roll is successful, meaning after it's compared to the target's AC and established that it is. Every such trigger is a window it can be used.
I'm going to say I think this works. I have read through the other responses and I take the points that people are making. There are a couple of stipulations I would apply to the situation.
The rune knight did not do anything that silvery barbs could react to, so the trigger would have to be the attack that hit. Other posts concur.
Silvery barbs and the cloud rune are both reacting to the successful attack roll. I'm ok with this. I see no reason why two things cannot react to the same trigger.
In order for the party to want to do this, the cloud rune would have to trigger first. You can look through the rules to get guidance on how to determine the order of simultaneous effects, but I would let the PC who made the attack decide the order since it is on their turn.
Personally I agree that in the order of operations the window to cast SB closes once “on hit” effects are being applied. The d20 roll has been fully resolved at that point.
This is a fair interpretation and while I disagree with it, you may be right. The way I see it, you have two valid reactions happening from the same trigger. Someone just needs to decide which one goes off first, or else the whole exercise is pointless.
Silvery barbs is also a weird spell that can pretty easily lend itself to metagaming. Something can trigger silvery barbs that the character wouldn't even be aware of, like an insight check or something. Personally, I would require the caster to have awareness of the trigger, but RAW does not require this.
First of all, this is entirely a DM interpretation call; D&D doesn't have the level of granularity in its timing rules that allows this to be worked out authoritatively. (Nor should it.)
That said, I think it should be allowed. This entirely based on the game-mechanical level, not the fictional level. (Silvery Barbs barely works at the fictional level to begin with.)
The relevant part, is "The chosen creature becomes the target of the attack, using the same roll." The hit is not yet determined; if the new target has a higher AC, then it could become a miss.
Therefore, the attack roll is still in play, and subject to reactions that alter it.
when a creature you can see within 60 feet of yourself succeeds on an attack roll, an ability check, or a saving throw
Cloud Rune says
when you or a creature you can see within 30 feet of you is hit by an attack roll, you can use your reaction to invoke the rune and choose a different creature within 30 feet of you, other than the attacker. The chosen creature becomes the target of the attack, using the same roll
If you allow silvery barbs to happen after the rune has been invoked, you can create a paradox in which a reaction gets used even though its trigger never happened (i.e. the attack roll didn't hit)
Consider a similar scenario: the BBEG hits with an attack, but the PC uses shield or another shield-like reaction to bump their AC and block it. Could the BBEG use its cloud rune to move the attack to a different character, because the initial roll would have been a hit? Or has the window to use it closed once another reaction takes effect?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If you allow silvery barbs to happen after the rune has been invoked, you can create a paradox in which a reaction gets used even though its trigger never happened (i.e. the attack roll didn't hit)
Wild stuff, right? :)
EDIT: Imagine a situation where a wizard has an armor class of 15. The ogre hits the wizard and rolls a 17. At this point, two things happen. The wizard casts shield and the wizard's bard ally casts silvery barbs. Both of those spells are triggered by the ogre's successful hit and both reactions happen at the same time. Someone has to process the order of those simultaneous events. If the silvery barbs goes off first and the attack is rerolled, thereby missing, then the shield spell retroactively loses its trigger. And if the shield spell goes off turning the hit into a miss, then the silvery barbs spell retroactively loses its trigger. It gets even weirder if the silvery barbs goes off, the ogre rerolls the attack, and STILL hits the wizard, then the wizard casts shield and the hit becomes a miss, meaning that silvery barbs was never triggered in the first place despite the fact that it happened.
I'm just saying that these weird paradoxical interactions can happen throughout the game. You either have to decide that the reaction is wasted or you have to decide to give it back.
Really, they should have made Cloud Rune just transfer the damage; it’s weird trying to parse the state of the attack roll in this instant.
They really really shouldn't, because that opens up a whole new can of worms! You could attack your ally Wizard with an AC of 13, hit, and then just transfer the damage to the target with an AC of 35 to just completely bypass their armor.
Setting aside the fact that nothing in 5e has 35 AC, it’s a once per SR effect, so that exploit is hardly broken. Plus it’s arguably a net loss to DPR in any case, since it’s burning an attack from your side rather than reversing one from the other side.
The outcome of the re-targeted attack has no incidence on the initial one that i can see so i'm not sure what paradox there could be but reaction often have weird result.
Cloud Rune: The chosen creature becomes the target of the attack, using the same roll.
The attack could miss against the new target. Since you still have to determine if the attack hits, Silvery Barbs would be available if the attack his the new target.
Silvery Barbs: You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
The party member still made the attack roll so would need to roll again and take the lowest roll.
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I started playing D&D from the basic box set in 1979.
The wizard casts shield and the wizard's bard ally casts silvery barbs. Both of those spells are triggered by the ogre's successful hit and both reactions happen at the same time.
They don't, though. One gets declared and cast first
Generally speaking, the only reaction that gets "triggered" in 5e is a Readied action. Spells can have a specific trigger, but it's still a conscious decision to cast them. They don't happen automatically
If the DM applies the Xanathar's optional rule, they could decide the wizard determines whether they got their shield off first or the bard got silvery barbs off first -- but I'm not sure I would use that rule in this case, since it's for simultaneous effects like multiple "end of turn" conditions being applied
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If the DM applies the Xanathar's optional rule, they could decide the wizard determines whether they got their shield off first or the bard got silvery barbs off first -- but I'm not sure I would use that rule in this case, since it's for simultaneous effects like multiple "end of turn" conditions being applied
This brings us back to the initial example from the OP. The fighter, whose turn they attacked on, decides the order of the simultaneous effects. The fighter decides cloud rune happens first and then silvery barbs happens next, but also at the same time :)
If the DM applies the Xanathar's optional rule, they could decide the wizard determines whether they got their shield off first or the bard got silvery barbs off first -- but I'm not sure I would use that rule in this case, since it's for simultaneous effects like multiple "end of turn" conditions being applied
This brings us back to the initial example from the OP. The fighter, whose turn they attacked on, decides the order of the simultaneous effects.
They aren't simultaneous. The rune got invoked first, then the spell got cast
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Isn’t the rune knight the trigger for the silvery barb thing?
if so, did he have to make a d20 roll?
The thinking for me is, PC nat20s the rune enemy, rune enemy uses save and redirects the attack to a different creature. ( poor use of wording maybe )
Anyway, for silvery barbs, would not the rune knight be the triggering effect that it, silvery barbs, would be specifically attempting to do what? Can’t be altering the rune knights roll, he isn’t making one just using a defense to avoid a major attack, and redirecting it to i would think would be an ally to this attacker.
so in that case, you wasted a silvery barb for nothing, cause it didn’t affect any rune knight roll it never made, critical attack at same roll hits or misses new target, damage is done, oops my bad says the rune knight. ( great you gave him just ONE extra attack on your party by way of frendly fire, well done. [ i do hope people reading this realize that i am being sarcastic here, things happen that sometimes can have unusual consequences.])
ok so for the reading of the initial post of this thread, i would think it would be a no for silvery barbs to be able to change the roll.
That to me would clean this mess up about what reacts to what.
If the DM applies the Xanathar's optional rule, they could decide the wizard determines whether they got their shield off first or the bard got silvery barbs off first -- but I'm not sure I would use that rule in this case, since it's for simultaneous effects like multiple "end of turn" conditions being applied
This brings us back to the initial example from the OP. The fighter, whose turn they attacked on, decides the order of the simultaneous effects.
They aren't simultaneous. The rune got invoked first, then the spell got cast
This would be true if silvery barbs was reacting to the cloud rune, but nothing in the cloud rune is a valid trigger for silvery barbs. Both reactions are triggered by the successful attack roll. That's why both reactions are simultaneous. But as you and I have both quoted, the rule says simultaneous effects are processed in order. That doesn't change the fact that they are simultaneous effects.
If the DM applies the Xanathar's optional rule, they could decide the wizard determines whether they got their shield off first or the bard got silvery barbs off first -- but I'm not sure I would use that rule in this case, since it's for simultaneous effects like multiple "end of turn" conditions being applied
This brings us back to the initial example from the OP. The fighter, whose turn they attacked on, decides the order of the simultaneous effects.
They aren't simultaneous. The rune got invoked first, then the spell got cast
This would be true if silvery barbs was reacting to the cloud rune, but nothing in the cloud rune is a valid trigger for silvery barbs. Both reactions are triggered by the successful attack roll. That's why both reactions are simultaneous. But as you and I have both quoted, the rule says simultaneous effects are processed in order. That doesn't change the fact that they are simultaneous effects.
No, it's true because there's nothing in the rules saying all reactions happen at the same time
The fact that two reactions are in response to the same action doesn't mean they are simultaneous. This isn't old-school M:TG where you make a little stack of interrupts before resolving them all
Simultaneous effects are things like multiple spells affecting the same creature that all have effects that kick in at the beginning of that creature's turn
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No, it's true because there's nothing in the rules saying all reactions happen at the same time
The fact that two reactions are in response to the same action doesn't mean they are simultaneous. This isn't old-school M:TG where you make a little stack of interrupts before resolving them all
Simultaneous effects are things like multiple spells affecting the same creature that all have effects that kick in at the beginning of that creature's turn
I agree.
Also, the simultaneity rule is a red herring here. Even if they're simultaneous, it has no effect on the outcome. If you could choose to have the barbs be dealt with first, the die gets rerolled, then the rune redirects the possibly-now-missing attack. Or the rune happens first, the attack is redirected, and then the attack die is rerolled. Shrug. There's no problems, no paradoxes, nothing.
But there's no reason to think simultaneity applies, because the reactions aren't simultaneous. Barbs is only used because the cloud rune was used, so the cloud rune happened first. In the fiction, the attacker thought they were striking the enemy, there was a puff of mist, and it was revealed that their target was actually their friend, but the wizard reacted fast enough to cast a spell to make them miss. In the mechanics, an attack roll was made, cloud rune was used as a reaction to the attack roll, changing its target, then silvery barbs was used as a reaction to the same attack roll.
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Wondering if I could get a second opinion.
So yesterday's session had a fight with boss character. The boss was a level 15 Rune Knight fighter.
So the battle goes as such, PC fighter attacks and crits the Boss.
Boss as a reaction uses the cloud rune to transfer the hit and damage to another PC.
Bard as a reaction casts Silvery Barbs on the friendly fighter PC.
Disagreement happens. I said that the Silvery Barbs can't be use against a Cloud Rune because 1. You wouldn't negate a hit from an ally. 2. The only reason to cast is to prevent the additional damage that you wouldn't know until after the damage got applied.
Bard suggest that he should be able to Silverly Barbs as a reaction once the cloud rune activates because he would know the damage is going to be transferred. As well the bard saw this same thing happen just two rounds before so he would have a point.
I would appreciate any feedback and clarification. Thank you.
I would go with a no here, but not for the reasons you listed:
First:
1. you would know the result of the "to hit" roll before you had to use silvery barbs, since its trigger is "when a creature succeeds on a attack roll [shortened]"
2. there is no problem with Silvery Barbs against an ally.
But the timing seems to be off here:
As far as I am concerned the sequence goes like this:
Roll to hit
Determine it the hit succeeds
If it succeeds: You may now cast silvery barbs to make it not that.
Then: the attack "hits"
You may now use reactions like Cloud Rune or Features like Smite that thrigger when you hit a creature with an attack.
The damage is calculated and applyed.
So the Bard would have to use Silvery barbs right after the roll of the Fighter, but before the NPS Fighter would have to decide to use Cloud Rune.
All that said: If it makes for a cool moment, you might want to allow it once since this case probably won't come up all to often.
The Bard should be able to use silvery barbs on the Fighter and force a reroll on the attack that succeeds on the other character chosen by the Rune Knight Cloud Rune to becoming the target of the attack using the same roll.
Personally I agree that in the order of operations the window to cast SB closes once “on hit” effects are being applied. The d20 roll has been fully resolved at that point.
Assuming the attacker can be seen within range, exactly when can you use silvery barbs ? When you determine the attack roll is successful, meaning after it's compared to the target's AC and established that it is. Every such trigger is a window it can be used.
Point, but it still just feels off to force a reroll at that stage. Then at the same time using Shield at that stage still sounds right.
Really, they should have made Cloud Rune just transfer the damage; it’s weird trying to parse the state of the attack roll in this instant.
I'm going to say I think this works. I have read through the other responses and I take the points that people are making. There are a couple of stipulations I would apply to the situation.
This is a fair interpretation and while I disagree with it, you may be right. The way I see it, you have two valid reactions happening from the same trigger. Someone just needs to decide which one goes off first, or else the whole exercise is pointless.
Silvery barbs is also a weird spell that can pretty easily lend itself to metagaming. Something can trigger silvery barbs that the character wouldn't even be aware of, like an insight check or something. Personally, I would require the caster to have awareness of the trigger, but RAW does not require this.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
First of all, this is entirely a DM interpretation call; D&D doesn't have the level of granularity in its timing rules that allows this to be worked out authoritatively. (Nor should it.)
That said, I think it should be allowed. This entirely based on the game-mechanical level, not the fictional level. (Silvery Barbs barely works at the fictional level to begin with.)
The relevant part, is "The chosen creature becomes the target of the attack, using the same roll." The hit is not yet determined; if the new target has a higher AC, then it could become a miss.
Therefore, the attack roll is still in play, and subject to reactions that alter it.
SB says it happens
Cloud Rune says
If you allow silvery barbs to happen after the rune has been invoked, you can create a paradox in which a reaction gets used even though its trigger never happened (i.e. the attack roll didn't hit)
Consider a similar scenario: the BBEG hits with an attack, but the PC uses shield or another shield-like reaction to bump their AC and block it. Could the BBEG use its cloud rune to move the attack to a different character, because the initial roll would have been a hit? Or has the window to use it closed once another reaction takes effect?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Wild stuff, right? :)
EDIT: Imagine a situation where a wizard has an armor class of 15. The ogre hits the wizard and rolls a 17. At this point, two things happen. The wizard casts shield and the wizard's bard ally casts silvery barbs. Both of those spells are triggered by the ogre's successful hit and both reactions happen at the same time. Someone has to process the order of those simultaneous events. If the silvery barbs goes off first and the attack is rerolled, thereby missing, then the shield spell retroactively loses its trigger. And if the shield spell goes off turning the hit into a miss, then the silvery barbs spell retroactively loses its trigger. It gets even weirder if the silvery barbs goes off, the ogre rerolls the attack, and STILL hits the wizard, then the wizard casts shield and the hit becomes a miss, meaning that silvery barbs was never triggered in the first place despite the fact that it happened.
I'm just saying that these weird paradoxical interactions can happen throughout the game. You either have to decide that the reaction is wasted or you have to decide to give it back.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Setting aside the fact that nothing in 5e has 35 AC, it’s a once per SR effect, so that exploit is hardly broken. Plus it’s arguably a net loss to DPR in any case, since it’s burning an attack from your side rather than reversing one from the other side.
The outcome of the re-targeted attack has no incidence on the initial one that i can see so i'm not sure what paradox there could be but reaction often have weird result.
Cloud Rune: The chosen creature becomes the target of the attack, using the same roll.
The attack could miss against the new target. Since you still have to determine if the attack hits, Silvery Barbs would be available if the attack his the new target.
Silvery Barbs: You magically distract the triggering creature and turn its momentary uncertainty into encouragement for another creature. The triggering creature must reroll the d20 and use the lower roll.
The party member still made the attack roll so would need to roll again and take the lowest roll.
I started playing D&D from the basic box set in 1979.
They don't, though. One gets declared and cast first
Generally speaking, the only reaction that gets "triggered" in 5e is a Readied action. Spells can have a specific trigger, but it's still a conscious decision to cast them. They don't happen automatically
If the DM applies the Xanathar's optional rule, they could decide the wizard determines whether they got their shield off first or the bard got silvery barbs off first -- but I'm not sure I would use that rule in this case, since it's for simultaneous effects like multiple "end of turn" conditions being applied
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This brings us back to the initial example from the OP. The fighter, whose turn they attacked on, decides the order of the simultaneous effects. The fighter decides cloud rune happens first and then silvery barbs happens next, but also at the same time :)
I don't follow. Every reaction must have a trigger that you are reacting to. The trigger is what allows the reaction.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
They aren't simultaneous. The rune got invoked first, then the spell got cast
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Isn’t the rune knight the trigger for the silvery barb thing?
if so, did he have to make a d20 roll?
The thinking for me is, PC nat20s the rune enemy, rune enemy uses save and redirects the attack to a different creature. ( poor use of wording maybe )
Anyway, for silvery barbs, would not the rune knight be the triggering effect that it, silvery barbs, would be specifically attempting to do what? Can’t be altering the rune knights roll, he isn’t making one just using a defense to avoid a major attack, and redirecting it to i would think would be an ally to this attacker.
so in that case, you wasted a silvery barb for nothing, cause it didn’t affect any rune knight roll it never made, critical attack at same roll hits or misses new target, damage is done, oops my bad says the rune knight. ( great you gave him just ONE extra attack on your party by way of frendly fire, well done. [ i do hope people reading this realize that i am being sarcastic here, things happen that sometimes can have unusual consequences.])
ok so for the reading of the initial post of this thread, i would think it would be a no for silvery barbs to be able to change the roll.
That to me would clean this mess up about what reacts to what.
This would be true if silvery barbs was reacting to the cloud rune, but nothing in the cloud rune is a valid trigger for silvery barbs. Both reactions are triggered by the successful attack roll. That's why both reactions are simultaneous. But as you and I have both quoted, the rule says simultaneous effects are processed in order. That doesn't change the fact that they are simultaneous effects.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
No, it's true because there's nothing in the rules saying all reactions happen at the same time
The fact that two reactions are in response to the same action doesn't mean they are simultaneous. This isn't old-school M:TG where you make a little stack of interrupts before resolving them all
Simultaneous effects are things like multiple spells affecting the same creature that all have effects that kick in at the beginning of that creature's turn
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I agree.
Also, the simultaneity rule is a red herring here. Even if they're simultaneous, it has no effect on the outcome. If you could choose to have the barbs be dealt with first, the die gets rerolled, then the rune redirects the possibly-now-missing attack. Or the rune happens first, the attack is redirected, and then the attack die is rerolled. Shrug. There's no problems, no paradoxes, nothing.
But there's no reason to think simultaneity applies, because the reactions aren't simultaneous. Barbs is only used because the cloud rune was used, so the cloud rune happened first. In the fiction, the attacker thought they were striking the enemy, there was a puff of mist, and it was revealed that their target was actually their friend, but the wizard reacted fast enough to cast a spell to make them miss. In the mechanics, an attack roll was made, cloud rune was used as a reaction to the attack roll, changing its target, then silvery barbs was used as a reaction to the same attack roll.