It allows you to cast Heal which is a spell without an M component with a spellcasting focus, specifically Alchemist's Supplies.
Doesn't this go against the general rule that you can only use a focus to cast spells with an M component?
I call cheater, cheater, pants on fire!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
It allows you to cast Heal which is a spell without an M component with a spellcasting focus, specifically Alchemist's Supplies.
Doesn't this go against the general rule that you can only use a focus to cast spells with an M component?
I call cheater, cheater, pants on fire!
Yes, but Artificers are different. The base class requires a spell focus for all spells.
Tools Required
You produce your artificer spell effects through your tools. You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it).
Yes, but that is part of their spellcasting rules... (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it).
But for the Chemical mastery feature it specifically states the two spells granted by the feature, in particular the Heal does not have an M component when being cast this way, and can only be cast this way with a spellcasting focus, specifically Alchemist's Supplies.
So to reiterate, you are casting a spell without an M component with a focus... which is directly opposite of the general rule.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Also, the interaction Chemical Mastery has on Heal is completely redundant with Tools Required. Chemical Mastery only enables you to use Alchemist's Supplies as a spellcasting focus for two specific spells, sometimes. But Tools Required allows you to use any artisans tools as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. (You may also notice that artisans tools are not listed as spellcasting foci, this is yet another example of Specific Beats General). This is in addition to Tools Required also making all Artificer spells require material components.
Yeah you make some good points and I agree with most of what you say... except for one key point that keeps sticking in my craw.
Every subclass of Artificer has a set of subclass spells that are always prepared at certain levels, in this case they are called Alchemist Spells. For this subclass they get Healing Word and Ray of Sickness at 3rd level and more at higher levels, etc.
But the 15th level feature Chemical Mastery doesn't say the spells you can cast without an M component are Artificer spells even though Greater Restoration is on the Artificer spell list.
Heal is not, in fact it is a 6th level and therefore cannot be an Artificer spell as their spell list only goes up to 5th level spells.
In addition the feature makes a point of saying the spells can only be cast this specific way... no M components, and using a focus (specifically Alchemist's Supplies), and a few other conditions etc.
I guess it's not cheating like you say and the specific beats the general in this case and you can just cast these 2 spells using this feature with a spellcasting focus but no M components.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I’m confused on what is so confusing. It sure seems like the feature tells you exactly what you can do with it and how. Isn’t it acceptable to just take the rule’s word for how it works?
It just sounded counter intuitive at first. I mean a character usually can't use a focus to cast a spell without an M component.
But understanding the 'specific beats general' rule and going by RAW I guess any examples of using a focus to cast a spell without an M component is acceptable.
Would the community at large agree?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
But understanding the 'specific beats general' rule and going by RAW I guess any examples of using a focus to cast a spell without an M component is acceptable.
The exception only applies to Heal and Greater Restoration, when cast as part of the Chemical Mastery feature. It would not apply to any other spells, be they Artificer spells or not.
For example, neither uses a spell slot, but instead is 1/day. If you were to cast Greater Restoration as an Artificer spell using an Artificer spell slot (because you had already used that spell that day per the Chemical Mastery feature), that extra casting would indeed have the M component and still be cast via your tools.
If a specific rule says you can use a focus to cast a spell without an M component then you can.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
It's literally the rules - so it cannot be cheating. You might consider it unbalanced or overpowered and get away with it. But it cannot be cheating.
Why is it a problem? If you're bothered your players have access to more healing, despair not. You, as GM, have access to unlimited damage.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It's a bitter pill to swallow when a feature allows such a specific exception to a general rule that everyone usually follows but I guess since you have to:
A: Be an Artificer B: Be an Alchemist C: Be 15th level
I can live with it if everyone else can.
PS: What about the Artificer Initiate feat?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
It's a bitter pill to swallow when a feature allows such a specific exception to a general rule that everyone usually follows but I guess since you have to:
A: Be an Artificer B: Be an Alchemist C: Be 15th level
I can live with it if everyone else can.
PS: What about the Artificer Initiate feat?
There are a lot of “specific beats general” rules in the game so this one isn’t that odd, especially when it comes to class features. RAW, hiding, dashing, dodging and disengaging all require an action. Yet monks and rogues can do most of these as a BA per specific class features. It really shouldn’t be that bitter a pill to swallow. It’s quite common
Considering the base class feature Tools Required, it looks like the feature you think is so overpowered ONLY functionally provides 2 unique things for the artificer: allows a casting of one of each of these spells a single time a day without a slot (and plenty of other features do similar) and removes the costly component from the spell that has it (and a few other features do that). All of the other parts are essentially fixing fact that these spells wouldn't be covered by tools required.
Do you think that Warlock Mystic Arcanum features or Way of the Four Elements monks are OP? What about Limited Wish? I would say it is obviously better than this because it allows access to more spells. Under certain conditions, Shepherd Druids get to cast a spell at 9th level when they don't even have 9th level slots.
In fact the feat you ask about in your PS allows you to cast a spell without a spell slot. And a bunch of others that give a first or second level spell. You don't explain what you might think is overpowered about the feat.
The Artificer Initiate feat still does not allow your Wizard-not-Artificer spells to gain the benefits of Alchemical Savant, no.
(The feat does not give the M component to your Int-based spells; it just lets you use your chosen tool as a focus. The Chemical Mastery feature explicitly tells you that it needs your alchemist supplies as a focus. In other words, the class feature was specifically worded to work with the other class feature. The feat was not.)
Yeah, I'm not saying the feat gives the spell an M component. I'm drawing a parallel between the two features. Each allow you to use tools as a focus to cast a spell without an M component.
No, I'm down with all the other instances of specific beats general, but for some reason this one just struck me as wrong at first. The general rule of needing a focus (or component pouch, etc.) to cast a spell with an M component, and not being able to use a focus to cast a spell without one is the norm. So seeing some examples of such a glaring contradiction, Chemical Mastery and Artificer Initiate just threw me.
But I got my head screwed on straight now. All is good. Move along, these are not the droids you're looking for...
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The feat doesn't actually change any requirements for casting spells. It only allows you to "use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence." Most would argue that since it doesn't change how spells behave, this ability only changes what you can use as a focus, not how it works. It is missing the parenthetical that tells you M components are added to spells that don't normally have them that the Tools Required feature contains.
Yeah, to be clear neither the Chemical Mastery or Artificer Initiate feature are adding an M component to the spell, quite the contrary in that they are allowing you to use a tool focus to cast a spell that does NOT have an M component.
The Chemical Mastery flat out says the spell does NOT have an M component for that particular way of casting it... one does not get added. You use the focus, cast the spell, and it does NOT have an M component.
The Artificer Initiate feat says you choose an artisan tool, gain proficiency, and can use it to cast a spell with an INT spellcasting ability, even if that spell doesn't have an M component... one does not get added. You use the focus, cast the spell, and it does NOT have an M component.
An example for the Artificer Initiate feat would be using Cobbler's tools to cast Knock which does NOT have an M component and this feat does NOT give it one. Casting Knock doesn't require a focus but this feat allows you to use one to cast it anyway.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I'm drawing a parallel between the two features. Each allow you to use tools as a focus to cast a spell without an M component.
Your parallel, in RAW at least, is incorrect.
Chemical Master "lets" you use a specific tool with spells that don't have an M component (actually, it removes the M component in one case, and requires you to use the Alchemist Supplies in the casting, which are both steps beyond what you are saying).
Meanwhile, Artificer Initiate does no such thing. They are not the same.
(Whatever synergy you are chasing, be it Order of Scribes / Alchemist / Magic Missile or something else, is going to require special DM approval; the Artificer Initiate feat does not solve it for you.)
A: choose an artisan tool. B: use it as a spellcasting focus. C: cast a spell with INT spellcasting ability.
...then you can:
A: select Alchemist's supplies B: use Alchemist's supplies as a spellcasting focus C: to cast Magic Missile from the wizard spell list
If the feat specifically says you can do this then it simply trumps any and all general rules that normally state otherwise.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy let's get cheesy!
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
There is a problem of your statement of C. B and C should be combined to say what the rule actually says, not separate and inaccurate statements. B/C: you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
You stole a base there. The rule says you can use the focus for any spell that has Int as a spellcasting ability, but still doesn't say you can add M components to spells that don't have them. Again, it is missing the wording that Tools Required has that says it changes the components of spells. Nowhere in the feat does it say the components of spells are changed or how the focus is used. It only states that what you can use as a focus is altered.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
It allows you to cast Heal which is a spell without an M component with a spellcasting focus, specifically Alchemist's Supplies.
Doesn't this go against the general rule that you can only use a focus to cast spells with an M component?
I call cheater, cheater, pants on fire!
Yes, but Artificers are different. The base class requires a spell focus for all spells.
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Yes, but that is part of their spellcasting rules... (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it).
But for the Chemical mastery feature it specifically states the two spells granted by the feature, in particular the Heal does not have an M component when being cast this way, and can only be cast this way with a spellcasting focus, specifically Alchemist's Supplies.
So to reiterate, you are casting a spell without an M component with a focus... which is directly opposite of the general rule.
The fact that one rule contradicts another is not an error or cheating, it is by design: https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/introduction#SpecificBeatsGeneral
Also, the interaction Chemical Mastery has on Heal is completely redundant with Tools Required. Chemical Mastery only enables you to use Alchemist's Supplies as a spellcasting focus for two specific spells, sometimes. But Tools Required allows you to use any artisans tools as a spellcasting focus for your artificer spells. (You may also notice that artisans tools are not listed as spellcasting foci, this is yet another example of Specific Beats General). This is in addition to Tools Required also making all Artificer spells require material components.
Furthermore, the feature Chemical Mastery specifically states: "You can cast greater restoration and heal without expending a spell slot, without preparing the spell, and without material components, provided you use alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus." - https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/tcoe/artificer#ChemicalMastery
Wow, this one sentence contradicts a number of different rules!
To bad this cheating is only limited to one spell casting per long rest.
Yeah you make some good points and I agree with most of what you say... except for one key point that keeps sticking in my craw.
Every subclass of Artificer has a set of subclass spells that are always prepared at certain levels, in this case they are called Alchemist Spells. For this subclass they get Healing Word and Ray of Sickness at 3rd level and more at higher levels, etc.
But the 15th level feature Chemical Mastery doesn't say the spells you can cast without an M component are Artificer spells even though Greater Restoration is on the Artificer spell list.
Heal is not, in fact it is a 6th level and therefore cannot be an Artificer spell as their spell list only goes up to 5th level spells.
In addition the feature makes a point of saying the spells can only be cast this specific way... no M components, and using a focus (specifically Alchemist's Supplies), and a few other conditions etc.
I guess it's not cheating like you say and the specific beats the general in this case and you can just cast these 2 spells using this feature with a spellcasting focus but no M components.
I’m confused on what is so confusing. It sure seems like the feature tells you exactly what you can do with it and how. Isn’t it acceptable to just take the rule’s word for how it works?
It just sounded counter intuitive at first. I mean a character usually can't use a focus to cast a spell without an M component.
But understanding the 'specific beats general' rule and going by RAW I guess any examples of using a focus to cast a spell without an M component is acceptable.
Would the community at large agree?
The exception only applies to Heal and Greater Restoration, when cast as part of the Chemical Mastery feature. It would not apply to any other spells, be they Artificer spells or not.
For example, neither uses a spell slot, but instead is 1/day. If you were to cast Greater Restoration as an Artificer spell using an Artificer spell slot (because you had already used that spell that day per the Chemical Mastery feature), that extra casting would indeed have the M component and still be cast via your tools.
Agreed!
If a specific rule says you can use a focus to cast a spell without an M component then you can.
It's literally the rules - so it cannot be cheating. You might consider it unbalanced or overpowered and get away with it. But it cannot be cheating.
Why is it a problem? If you're bothered your players have access to more healing, despair not. You, as GM, have access to unlimited damage.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
It's a bitter pill to swallow when a feature allows such a specific exception to a general rule that everyone usually follows but I guess since you have to:
A: Be an Artificer
B: Be an Alchemist
C: Be 15th level
I can live with it if everyone else can.
PS: What about the Artificer Initiate feat?
There are a lot of “specific beats general” rules in the game so this one isn’t that odd, especially when it comes to class features. RAW, hiding, dashing, dodging and disengaging all require an action. Yet monks and rogues can do most of these as a BA per specific class features. It really shouldn’t be that bitter a pill to swallow. It’s quite common
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?
Considering the base class feature Tools Required, it looks like the feature you think is so overpowered ONLY functionally provides 2 unique things for the artificer: allows a casting of one of each of these spells a single time a day without a slot (and plenty of other features do similar) and removes the costly component from the spell that has it (and a few other features do that). All of the other parts are essentially fixing fact that these spells wouldn't be covered by tools required.
Do you think that Warlock Mystic Arcanum features or Way of the Four Elements monks are OP? What about Limited Wish? I would say it is obviously better than this because it allows access to more spells. Under certain conditions, Shepherd Druids get to cast a spell at 9th level when they don't even have 9th level slots.
In fact the feat you ask about in your PS allows you to cast a spell without a spell slot. And a bunch of others that give a first or second level spell. You don't explain what you might think is overpowered about the feat.
The Artificer Initiate feat still does not allow your Wizard-not-Artificer spells to gain the benefits of Alchemical Savant, no.
(The feat does not give the M component to your Int-based spells; it just lets you use your chosen tool as a focus. The Chemical Mastery feature explicitly tells you that it needs your alchemist supplies as a focus. In other words, the class feature was specifically worded to work with the other class feature. The feat was not.)
Yeah, I'm not saying the feat gives the spell an M component. I'm drawing a parallel between the two features. Each allow you to use tools as a focus to cast a spell without an M component.
No, I'm down with all the other instances of specific beats general, but for some reason this one just struck me as wrong at first. The general rule of needing a focus (or component pouch, etc.) to cast a spell with an M component, and not being able to use a focus to cast a spell without one is the norm. So seeing some examples of such a glaring contradiction, Chemical Mastery and Artificer Initiate just threw me.
But I got my head screwed on straight now. All is good. Move along, these are not the droids you're looking for...
The feat doesn't actually change any requirements for casting spells. It only allows you to "use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence." Most would argue that since it doesn't change how spells behave, this ability only changes what you can use as a focus, not how it works. It is missing the parenthetical that tells you M components are added to spells that don't normally have them that the Tools Required feature contains.
Yeah, to be clear neither the Chemical Mastery or Artificer Initiate feature are adding an M component to the spell, quite the contrary in that they are allowing you to use a tool focus to cast a spell that does NOT have an M component.
The Chemical Mastery flat out says the spell does NOT have an M component for that particular way of casting it... one does not get added. You use the focus, cast the spell, and it does NOT have an M component.
The Artificer Initiate feat says you choose an artisan tool, gain proficiency, and can use it to cast a spell with an INT spellcasting ability, even if that spell doesn't have an M component... one does not get added. You use the focus, cast the spell, and it does NOT have an M component.
An example for the Artificer Initiate feat would be using Cobbler's tools to cast Knock which does NOT have an M component and this feat does NOT give it one. Casting Knock doesn't require a focus but this feat allows you to use one to cast it anyway.
Your parallel, in RAW at least, is incorrect.
Chemical Master "lets" you use a specific tool with spells that don't have an M component (actually, it removes the M component in one case, and requires you to use the Alchemist Supplies in the casting, which are both steps beyond what you are saying).
Meanwhile, Artificer Initiate does no such thing. They are not the same.
(Whatever synergy you are chasing, be it Order of Scribes / Alchemist / Magic Missile or something else, is going to require special DM approval; the Artificer Initiate feat does not solve it for you.)
If the feat says you can:
A: choose an artisan tool.
B: use it as a spellcasting focus.
C: cast a spell with INT spellcasting ability.
...then you can:
A: select Alchemist's supplies
B: use Alchemist's supplies as a spellcasting focus
C: to cast Magic Missile from the wizard spell list
If the feat specifically says you can do this then it simply trumps any and all general rules that normally state otherwise.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy let's get cheesy!
There is a problem of your statement of C. B and C should be combined to say what the rule actually says, not separate and inaccurate statements. B/C: you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
You stole a base there. The rule says you can use the focus for any spell that has Int as a spellcasting ability, but still doesn't say you can add M components to spells that don't have them. Again, it is missing the wording that Tools Required has that says it changes the components of spells. Nowhere in the feat does it say the components of spells are changed or how the focus is used. It only states that what you can use as a focus is altered.