Not ever adding an M component... never ever ever.
Simply casting Magic Missile without it ever having an M component. If you look closely at the components for magic missile you'll notice it does NOT have an M component. And I never once ever said I was adding one.
Just like Chemical Mastery never adds an M component, not even with Right Tools for the Job. Chemical Mastery allows for the focus to be used while casting the spell and the spell does NOT have an M component.
Exact same difference for the Artificer Initiate feat, use the focus, cast the spell... never ever ever has an M component. Does not have one to start, doesn't get one during, and finishes resolving without one... even afterward it doesn't pick one up.
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"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Q: How does a spell without an M component interact with a focus? A: It doesn't. Q: How does Artificer Initiate change that? A: It doesn't. Q: What does Artificer Initiate do? A: Changes what can be a focus.
Again, there is a difference between the class features and the feat. Tools Required tells you that it adds M components to spells cast in that way. Chemical mastery tells you that M is not required (but tools are). Again, each of these says exactly when and how M components change. The feat Artificer Initiate is different: It makes no such mention.
You have to read the whole sentence. It doesn't just change what can be used as a focus, it also allows you to use that focus to cast a spell with INT spellcasting ability.
100% of the spells on the Artificer spell list qualify as targets for this feat because the feat simply checks for INT spellcasting ability, not whether there is or isn't an M component.
100% of the spells on the Wizard spell list qualify as targets for this feat because the feat simply checks for INT spellcasting ability, not whether there is or isn't an M component.
At this point I'm convinced you're simply trolling me as anyone who can read can see the feat checks for INT spellcasting ability and never ever mentions anything about an M component. Having one, not having one, adding one, removing one, none of this is mentioned in the feat. What is mentioned? If the spell in question has INT spellcasting ability.
Does Magic Missile from the wizard spell list have an INT spellcasting ability?
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
You have to read the whole sentence. It doesn't just change what can be used as a focus, it also allows you to use that focus to cast a spell with INT spellcasting ability.
100% of the spells on the Artificer spell list qualify as targets for this feat because the feat simply checks for INT spellcasting ability, not whether there is or isn't an M component.
100% of the spell on the Wizard spell list qualify as targets for this feat because the feat simply checks for INT spellcasting ability, not whether there is or isn't an M component.
At this point I'm convinced you're simply trolling me as anyone who can read can see the feat checks for INT spellcasting ability and never ever mentions anything about an M component. Having one, not having one, adding one, removing one, none of this is mentioned in the feat. What is mentioned? If the spell in question has INT spellcasting ability.
Does Magic Missile from the wizard spell list have an INT spellcasting ability?
If yes, then you can cast it with the focus.
If no, then you cannot cast it with the focus.
I am absolutely not trolling you, again this feels like you are reading a game feature and expecting something different than what it says. Like your OP of this thread. The rule says what it does.
Does the feature say it changes how spells are cast? Does it say anything about adding M components to spells that do not have them or removing them from those that dont? Do feature *like* it have those caveats? Yes. I just showed you that. If a feature wants to change how you interact with components, it will tell you directly. Does this one? Seriously, the actual answer to that direct question tells you all you need to know about this interaction. It's dead simple.
Again: Q: Does magic missile have an M component? A: No. Q: Does the feat change anything about casting spells without M components? A: No (for context, there is no text telling you that it does). Q: How do you cast a spell without an M component with a focus? A: The same way the general rules tell you: You do not.
This is the...3rd, 4th thread about this exact topic, started by the same person.
Do you have some arrangement with your DM whereby you are allowed to do something if a thread on dndbeyond "concludes" it works?
Otherwise, either your DM approves this or they don't; play the game how you like to play it. What you're asking for isn't RAW, but maybe that doesn't matter.
The feat does not ask if any spell, Magic Missile or not, has the M component or adds it.
It does ask if the spell has INT spellcasting ability.
Since that is all the feat checks for that is the only interaction that matters.
If Magic Missile from the wizard spell list has INT spellcasting ability, then it is a valid target.
So is Knock and Thunderwave and Catapult all of which don't have an M component, don't add an M component, never have anything in the feat mention anything about an M component... and yet all are valid targets for the feat simply because by RAW they all are on the wizard spell list and have INT spellcasting ability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
You keep skipping over the part that matters. The feat doesn't care if the spell has an M component, but the rules for casting spells do. And the feat doesn't change those.
Again, If a feature wants to change how you interact with components, it will tell you directly. Does this one?
I agree that it doesn't add a material component to any spells... who ever said it did?
And I agree that it does not let you cast spells that don't have material components with an Arcane Focus.
But when I read the feat and it says clear as day that you can use Artisan's tools as a focus to cast spells that have an INT spellcasting ability.
Then I can use Alchemist's supplies to cast the Magic Missile spell.
You all can argue until you're black and blue in the face about M components.
But I'm only concerned with the RAW of the feat. Artisan tools. Artisan tools as a spellcasting focus. Using Artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus to cast spells with an INT spellcasting ability.
RAW is RAW. Specific beats general. We're probably never going to agree on this. And whether or not it's intentional you are trolling because you keep trying to add something about M components to the discussion when the feat never brings it up.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
A: choose an artisan tool. B: use it as a spellcasting focus. C: cast a spell with INT spellcasting ability.
...then you can:
A: select Alchemist's supplies B: use Alchemist's supplies as a spellcasting focus C: to cast Magic Missile from the wizard spell list
If the feat specifically says you can do this then it simply trumps any and all general rules that normally state otherwise.
Easy peasy lemon squeezy let's get cheesy!
The feat allows you to use the tool as a spellcasting focus for Int-based spells. However, that only applies where you can already use a focus. Meaning you're bound by the normal focus rules, which means you can only use it where there's a material component with no listed cost that isn't consumed.
Magic Missile doesn't qualify. Fireball does.
Edit to add to this: The Wizard class states "You can use an arcane focus (see chapter 5, "Equipment") as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells." However, this doesn't lift the requirement that it needs to have an appropriate material cost to apply this. It's the same situation with the feat.
Nowhere in the feat does it say this, that you can use the focus to cast spells with an INT spellcasting ability... where you can already use a focus... or, so long as it has an M component... or, anything else of that nature.
And a specific rule is never bound by a general rule... it is the opposite in fact, specific beats general, not the other way around.
The feat stops at spells with an INT spellcasting ability.
If you can find them you can cast them, if you have this feat. I couldn't find any on the Bard spell list because they're CHA spellcasting ability, and neither could I find any on the Cleric spell list because they're WIS spellcasting ability, but every single spell, all 100% of them on the Artificer and Wizard lists qualify... not because they have an M component or lack an M component but because they all, all 100% of them have INT spellcasting ability.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
I've seen this debate before and it always runs in circles so, since it's also tangential to the topic of the thread at best, it's probably best to just drop it.
The only use of a focus is to act in place of M components of spells. That is why Tools Required needs to say that it changes M components in order to allow you to cast spells that normally don’t have M components with a focus.
If you really don’t understand why M components matter when we are talking about using a focus then maybe this discussion is moot.
I've seen this debate before and it always runs in circles so, since it's also tangential to the topic of the thread at best, it's probably best to just drop it.
The entire thread topic was probably bait for this very discussion.
Agreed. When a specific rule found inside a feat states a focus can do something else, like cast a spell with INT spellcasting ability and anyone tries to ignore that specific rule/exception and default to the general rule of using a focus to cast only spells that include an M component then it does become moot.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Ok. Can you point to the part of the rule that says that it changes the components of the spell so that spells without M can be cast with a focus? Or that it changes how a focus works so that it does something other than replace M components?
I mean, as was pointed out before, no base class focus rules tell you how a focus works or specify that they work for spells with M components, probably because the spell rules already do.
See that's just it, you keep missing the mark by arguing things that aren't in the feat and I haven't brought up.
Where does it say you change the components?
Where does it say it replaces M components?
It says you get a tool, but not any tool, it has to be an Artisan tool.
It says you can use it as a focus, but not any kind of focus, it has to be a spellcasting focus.
It says you can use that spellcasting focus to cast spells, but not spells with an M component and not spells without an M component, it has to be spells that have INT spellcasting ability.
Every single spell on the Artificer and Wizard spell lists qualifies as spells with an INT spellcasting ability.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
You can use an arcane focus (see the Adventuring Gear section) as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
from the feat:
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Compare the wording. neither makes an exception about allowing spells not normally cast with a focus to use one.
The spellcasting rules for wizards are general rules that apply to all wizards and allow them to follow the general rules for spellcasting. This means they can only use their focus to cast spells that include an M component in their spell description. Those rules do not specifically state that they can use their focus to cast spells with INT spellcasting ability, even though all wizard spells have INT spellcasting ability.
The Artificer Initiate feat has a very specific wording on how you can use the artisan tool focus to specifically cast any spell with INT spellcasting ability. This isn't mentioned under any of the classes, not a single one. It isn't even mentioned in any other feat. It can be found nowhere else in the entire game. This is as specific as you can get. It is only found here in this feat and makes no mention of including, or excluding any spell based on anything else, even M components, it only has one requirement listed for the spells that are valid targets for use with the artisan tool focus, and that is INT spellcasting ability.
Therefore to follow RAW you have to check if the spell has INT spellcasting ability, just that and nothing else applies. Not whether it has an M component. Not whether it doesn't have an M component. The specific rule does not check and is not limited by the normal, general rules for spellcasting. It only checks specifically for INT spellcasting ability and then allows you to cast that spell.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
The artificer feat has very specific wording that nearly identically matches the wording of the wizard class. Look again. Try reading word for word. I posted them to help you.
All the hand wringing and hemming and hawing about where the rules are written has nothing to do with their words or construction or what they let you do. In this case, their identical structure leads to identical function.
I would consider actually answering some of the questions I have brought up thoughtfully before responding. The correct answers really do point toward the right answer to this question.
Not ever adding an M component... never ever ever.
Simply casting Magic Missile without it ever having an M component. If you look closely at the components for magic missile you'll notice it does NOT have an M component. And I never once ever said I was adding one.
Just like Chemical Mastery never adds an M component, not even with Right Tools for the Job. Chemical Mastery allows for the focus to be used while casting the spell and the spell does NOT have an M component.
Exact same difference for the Artificer Initiate feat, use the focus, cast the spell... never ever ever has an M component. Does not have one to start, doesn't get one during, and finishes resolving without one... even afterward it doesn't pick one up.
Q: How does a spell without an M component interact with a focus?
A: It doesn't.
Q: How does Artificer Initiate change that?
A: It doesn't.
Q: What does Artificer Initiate do?
A: Changes what can be a focus.
Again, there is a difference between the class features and the feat. Tools Required tells you that it adds M components to spells cast in that way. Chemical mastery tells you that M is not required (but tools are). Again, each of these says exactly when and how M components change. The feat Artificer Initiate is different: It makes no such mention.
You have to read the whole sentence. It doesn't just change what can be used as a focus, it also allows you to use that focus to cast a spell with INT spellcasting ability.
100% of the spells on the Artificer spell list qualify as targets for this feat because the feat simply checks for INT spellcasting ability, not whether there is or isn't an M component.
100% of the spells on the Wizard spell list qualify as targets for this feat because the feat simply checks for INT spellcasting ability, not whether there is or isn't an M component.
At this point I'm convinced you're simply trolling me as anyone who can read can see the feat checks for INT spellcasting ability and never ever mentions anything about an M component. Having one, not having one, adding one, removing one, none of this is mentioned in the feat. What is mentioned? If the spell in question has INT spellcasting ability.
Does Magic Missile from the wizard spell list have an INT spellcasting ability?
If yes, then you can cast it with the focus.
If no, then you cannot cast it with the focus.
I am absolutely not trolling you, again this feels like you are reading a game feature and expecting something different than what it says. Like your OP of this thread. The rule says what it does.
Does the feature say it changes how spells are cast? Does it say anything about adding M components to spells that do not have them or removing them from those that dont? Do feature *like* it have those caveats? Yes. I just showed you that. If a feature wants to change how you interact with components, it will tell you directly. Does this one? Seriously, the actual answer to that direct question tells you all you need to know about this interaction. It's dead simple.
Again: Q: Does magic missile have an M component?
A: No.
Q: Does the feat change anything about casting spells without M components?
A: No (for context, there is no text telling you that it does).
Q: How do you cast a spell without an M component with a focus?
A: The same way the general rules tell you: You do not.
This is the...3rd, 4th thread about this exact topic, started by the same person.
Do you have some arrangement with your DM whereby you are allowed to do something if a thread on dndbeyond "concludes" it works?
Otherwise, either your DM approves this or they don't; play the game how you like to play it. What you're asking for isn't RAW, but maybe that doesn't matter.
The feat does not ask if any spell, Magic Missile or not, has the M component or adds it.
It does ask if the spell has INT spellcasting ability.
Since that is all the feat checks for that is the only interaction that matters.
If Magic Missile from the wizard spell list has INT spellcasting ability, then it is a valid target.
So is Knock and Thunderwave and Catapult all of which don't have an M component, don't add an M component, never have anything in the feat mention anything about an M component... and yet all are valid targets for the feat simply because by RAW they all are on the wizard spell list and have INT spellcasting ability.
You keep skipping over the part that matters. The feat doesn't care if the spell has an M component, but the rules for casting spells do. And the feat doesn't change those.
Again, If a feature wants to change how you interact with components, it will tell you directly. Does this one?
I agree that it doesn't add a material component to any spells... who ever said it did?
And I agree that it does not let you cast spells that don't have material components with an Arcane Focus.
But when I read the feat and it says clear as day that you can use Artisan's tools as a focus to cast spells that have an INT spellcasting ability.
Then I can use Alchemist's supplies to cast the Magic Missile spell.
You all can argue until you're black and blue in the face about M components.
But I'm only concerned with the RAW of the feat. Artisan tools. Artisan tools as a spellcasting focus. Using Artisan's tools as a spellcasting focus to cast spells with an INT spellcasting ability.
RAW is RAW. Specific beats general. We're probably never going to agree on this. And whether or not it's intentional you are trolling because you keep trying to add something about M components to the discussion when the feat never brings it up.
...tools...
...spellcasting focus...
...spells with INT spellcasting ability...
Done, done, and done!
The feat allows you to use the tool as a spellcasting focus for Int-based spells. However, that only applies where you can already use a focus. Meaning you're bound by the normal focus rules, which means you can only use it where there's a material component with no listed cost that isn't consumed.
Magic Missile doesn't qualify. Fireball does.
Edit to add to this: The Wizard class states "You can use an arcane focus (see chapter 5, "Equipment") as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells." However, this doesn't lift the requirement that it needs to have an appropriate material cost to apply this. It's the same situation with the feat.
Nowhere in the feat does it say this, that you can use the focus to cast spells with an INT spellcasting ability... where you can already use a focus... or, so long as it has an M component... or, anything else of that nature.
And a specific rule is never bound by a general rule... it is the opposite in fact, specific beats general, not the other way around.
The feat stops at spells with an INT spellcasting ability.
If you can find them you can cast them, if you have this feat. I couldn't find any on the Bard spell list because they're CHA spellcasting ability, and neither could I find any on the Cleric spell list because they're WIS spellcasting ability, but every single spell, all 100% of them on the Artificer and Wizard lists qualify... not because they have an M component or lack an M component but because they all, all 100% of them have INT spellcasting ability.
I've seen this debate before and it always runs in circles so, since it's also tangential to the topic of the thread at best, it's probably best to just drop it.
What does a focus do? Let me answer:
The only use of a focus is to act in place of M components of spells. That is why Tools Required needs to say that it changes M components in order to allow you to cast spells that normally don’t have M components with a focus.
If you really don’t understand why M components matter when we are talking about using a focus then maybe this discussion is moot.
The entire thread topic was probably bait for this very discussion.
Agreed. When a specific rule found inside a feat states a focus can do something else, like cast a spell with INT spellcasting ability and anyone tries to ignore that specific rule/exception and default to the general rule of using a focus to cast only spells that include an M component then it does become moot.
Ok. Can you point to the part of the rule that says that it changes the components of the spell so that spells without M can be cast with a focus? Or that it changes how a focus works so that it does something other than replace M components?
I mean, as was pointed out before, no base class focus rules tell you how a focus works or specify that they work for spells with M components, probably because the spell rules already do.
See that's just it, you keep missing the mark by arguing things that aren't in the feat and I haven't brought up.
Where does it say you change the components?
Where does it say it replaces M components?
It says you get a tool, but not any tool, it has to be an Artisan tool.
It says you can use it as a focus, but not any kind of focus, it has to be a spellcasting focus.
It says you can use that spellcasting focus to cast spells, but not spells with an M component and not spells without an M component, it has to be spells that have INT spellcasting ability.
Every single spell on the Artificer and Wizard spell lists qualifies as spells with an INT spellcasting ability.
You failing to see how the lack of those statements is relevant is telling as to why you continue to misunderstand.
Do you agree that a single class wizard without this feat cannot cast a spell with no M components using a focus?
from the wizard class:
Spellcasting Focus
You can use an arcane focus (see the Adventuring Gear section) as a spellcasting focus for your wizard spells.
from the feat:
Compare the wording. neither makes an exception about allowing spells not normally cast with a focus to use one.
The spellcasting rules for wizards are general rules that apply to all wizards and allow them to follow the general rules for spellcasting. This means they can only use their focus to cast spells that include an M component in their spell description. Those rules do not specifically state that they can use their focus to cast spells with INT spellcasting ability, even though all wizard spells have INT spellcasting ability.
The Artificer Initiate feat has a very specific wording on how you can use the artisan tool focus to specifically cast any spell with INT spellcasting ability. This isn't mentioned under any of the classes, not a single one. It isn't even mentioned in any other feat. It can be found nowhere else in the entire game. This is as specific as you can get. It is only found here in this feat and makes no mention of including, or excluding any spell based on anything else, even M components, it only has one requirement listed for the spells that are valid targets for use with the artisan tool focus, and that is INT spellcasting ability.
Therefore to follow RAW you have to check if the spell has INT spellcasting ability, just that and nothing else applies. Not whether it has an M component. Not whether it doesn't have an M component. The specific rule does not check and is not limited by the normal, general rules for spellcasting. It only checks specifically for INT spellcasting ability and then allows you to cast that spell.
The artificer feat has very specific wording that nearly identically matches the wording of the wizard class. Look again. Try reading word for word. I posted them to help you.
All the hand wringing and hemming and hawing about where the rules are written has nothing to do with their words or construction or what they let you do. In this case, their identical structure leads to identical function.
I would consider actually answering some of the questions I have brought up thoughtfully before responding. The correct answers really do point toward the right answer to this question.