But there is a correct answer. When a specific rule makes a change to a general rule, follow the specific one. When a specific rule doesn't change a general rule (like how this one makes no mention of changing focuses or M components) then you follow the general rule.
Again, compare the feat with Tools Required. The artificer class feature tells you that it changes spells so that they work with a focus. The feat does not. The feat therefore doesn't change spells or how a focus works. So what rules do you use: the general ones. What do the general rules say? Focuses replace M components of spells (and therefore only apply to spells with M components).
It is pretty poor rules understanding to rule differently.
Everyone I know who takes a feat usually does what the feat allows them to do.
This allows anyone to take Alchemist Supplies and cast Magic Missile so I'm going to continue to do so.
I have literally played in hundreds of games and never seen anyone say that the general rules don't allow you to do a specific part of a feat.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
As you say the entire wording must be adhered to and you cannot separate the ability to use a tool as a spellcasting focus from just what spells you can use that tool as a spellcasting focus for.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
No one is separating the spellcasting focus from what spells it can be used for. However, the rules for the use of a spellcasting focus are clearly defined and no where in the description of the Artificer Initiate feat does it state the focus gains additional functionality or overrules any other general rulesets. Something that gains the ability to qualify as a spellcasting focus only means it can function as a focus and the limits defined by the game ruleset.
You don't just get to use the tools as a spellcasting focus and that's it. There are conditions. Those conditions include any spell that use INT as its spellcasting ability.
Actually, this is all you can use the tools for: a spellcasting focus. The condition of "you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability" is to limit the character's use of this particular spellcasting focus; without this caveat then a character who has multiple spellcasting features would be allowed to use this as a focus for all their casting options. But under these set conditions, the feat only allows the selected tool to be used as a spellcasting focus.
That means Magic Missile , Knock , Catapult , Thunderwave and many more, the list goes on and on. How many are on the list and where do we find this list?
Spells do not use a spellcasting ability; Spellcasting using a spellcasting ability. The feature that grants the character Spellcasting will also identity the spellcasting ability. Take Thunderwave as an example:
LEVEL
1st
CASTING TIME
1 Action
RANGE/AREA
Self (15 ft )
COMPONENTS
V, S
DURATION
Instantaneous
SCHOOL
Evocation
ATTACK/SAVE
CON Save
DAMAGE/EFFECT
Thunder
A wave of thunderous force sweeps out from you. Each creature in a 15-foot cube originating from you must make a Constitution saving throw. On a failed save, a creature takes 2d8 thunder damage and is pushed 10 feet away from you. On a successful save, the creature takes half as much damage and isn't pushed.
In addition, unsecured objects that are completely within the area of effect are automatically pushed 10 feet away from you by the spell's effect, and the spell emits a thunderous boom audible out to 300 feet.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for each slot level above 1st.
The spell does not state is an INT ability score based spell. The spellcasting ability type is not a requirement for the spell.
The spellcasting ability is based on the feature that grants the character access for casting the spell. The most cited example is class that grants spellcasting (as cited above), but not all classes use the same spellcasting abilities. Furthermore, the class (as well as other game features) often have a requirement to have the spell either known or prepared in order to cast; or a define set of criteria that allows casting (i.e. once per long rest). But now matter how it is laid out, the spell is not what determines the spellcasting ability; it is the feature the character is using to cast the spell that determines the spellcasting ability.
So in short, there is no list of spells that use INT as a spellcasting ability; instead it is the character's feature(s) that grant spellcasting of a subset of spells and the feature defines INT for the spellcasting abilty.
Can we just make up rules or stick with the general rules for spellcasting. NO! We must follow RAW and just go by what the feat says. It says we can use any spell that uses INT as its spellcasting ability. This includes every single spell on the Artificer and Wizard spell list. EVERY SINGLE ONE! NO EXCEPTIONS!
You make this statement, yet you are the one who is looking to not follow RAW and proposing rules without citing specified exceptions. You admitted in an earlier post that the feat doesn't spell it out as clearly as some other rules; and this thread was started by citing a feature that clearly calls out exceptions to the general ruleset (the example class feature clear states "without" several time to distinguish when a general rule is being overruled). So if the feat does not follow the standard format(s) to make exceptions to the general ruleset then where in RAW does it state the general ruleset is not long applicable. Even the argument of using INT as a spellcasting ability is not being applied correctly because the spellcasting ability is not spell based but feature based. The spellcating ability is determined by the character's feature that grants access to and allows for casting of the spell. The spellcasting ability is not related to a spell's components, and no where in this thread is there an example of or a RAW citation on how the spellcasting ability alleviates or eliminates component requirements. Finally no rule or exception to a rule has been presented that changes how a spellcasting focus is defined to function.
All other rules for knowing and preparing a spell still applies. The character must meet all requires to cast the spell based on their spellcasting features. None of this changes. The only addition is that if the feature uses INT for the spellcasting ability, the character can choose to use their selected artisan tools to meet the requirements of a spellcasting focus.
Exactly! And since the feat allows you to use Alchemist's Supplies to cast the Magic Missile spell then you can do so.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Exactly! And since the feat allows you to use Alchemist's Supplies to cast the Magic Missile spell then you can do so.
No. You cannot.
You can only cast Magic Missile if you have a feature that grants you spellcasting and that feature allows you to either know, prepare, or provides an inherent ability to cast this spell.
Yes, that is correct. The feat does notallow the character to use Alchemist's Supplies to cast the Magic Missile spell. Therefore you cannot cast the spell.
The only way to cast the spell is for the character to have a feature that grants spellcasting and that feature allows the character to either know, prepare, or provides an inherent ability to cast the particular spell.
Yes! And if you have a way to cast it then this feat allows you to do so.
Why would you suddenly bring that up after 4 pages in. Did you mistakenly think I thought the feat somehow gave you the spell for free?
Sort of like you are mistakenly thinking that a general rule can somehow be piggybacked in to counteract a specific situation that the feat allows.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
Yes! And if you have a way to cast it then this feat allows you to do so.
No it doesn't. Either this is a poor statement or misunderstanding.
Why would you suddenly bring that up after 4 pages in. Did you mistakenly think I thought the feat somehow gave you the spell for free?
Hard to tell. You mistakenly think it changes how spells are cast.
Sort of like you are mistakenly thinking that a general rule can somehow be piggybacked in to counteract a specific situation that the feat allows.
Again, this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the rules work. I'm sorry, but really I think that with this much of a deep rooted misunderstanding of how the rules work (or even how to read them), the correct conclusion will continue to evade you.
If the feat gave you any evidence that it changed how focuses work or how spell components work, I'm sure you'd just post that by now, after four pages. Since you can't post that text, that must mean there is no text. That must mean that the tools work like any other focus for spells with M components.
The thing I can't fathom is why you still think the Wizard Spellcasting rule is different from this feat's rule? You don't ever explain it with rules. You only use made up literal nonsense (I can actually make no sense of it) as to why they're different. One says you can use a focus to cast some spells and the other says you can use a focus to cast some spells, but for some reason you keep emphasizing some nonexistent difference in how to apply the two rules.
I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm trying to get you to understand how to read rules.
Semantics (meaning) is exactly what we are arguing. Both game features have the exact semantic construction but as far as you've shown here, you have invented a reason for them to behave differently. I asked you to show me why you think they behave differently. You, being consistently unable to show using rules why they would behave differently, have only repeated the same inane literal nonsense ad nauseam.
How do you cast a V,S spell with a focus? What rules tell you about it? What rules in the feat either change how a focus is used or how M components behave in a spell.
Here, I'll spot you: in Tools required, the part that says "You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it)" is the part that does it for that feature.
For Chemical Mastery the part that says " and without material components, provided you use alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus" is the part that does it for that feature.
What's the part of the feat that does it? That is all you need to show: some rule that lets you use a focus for a V,S spell. That's it. If you can provide that rule then it is in the rules... and if you can't... Well, you haven't been able to do it so far over the last 4 pages...
You keep saying the rules do what they tell you, but have yet to point to a rule telling you that you can do what you are claiming. You are just assuming, incorrectly.
The feat does not give you an artisan tool to use as a focus to cast spells as some on here have claimed. They are incorrect in that assumption because they have rushed to a conclusion that they stubbornly cling to and to do so they have had to resort to quoting rules outside of the feat instead of looking inside the feat to see what it can do.
The feat does give you an artisan tool to use as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
This is the part that keeps giving you guys trouble, the part that is highlighted in bold is the part of the feat that allows you to use the spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Translation: Take Alchemist Supplies and cast Magic Missile so long as you have the actual alchemist supplies and have the spell prepared or learned or have some way within the rules to legally cast it. As by now you may of realized that I am a stickler for the rules when I have to be.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
So what rules tell you about using a spell casting focus for a spell that uses INT as its spell casting ability, whether or not it has M components?
Again, I'm looking for what the rules tell us that means. That is what I asked for in the previous post when you just pointed back at a rule that says nothing about that again.
What's the rule that tells you how to do that?
Where is the contradiction to the general rule? "Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins." If there isn't a contradiction, then the general rule still applies.
Yes! And if you have a way to cast it then this feat allows you to do so.
Why would you suddenly bring that up after 4 pages in. Did you mistakenly think I thought the feat somehow gave you the spell for free?
Sort of like you are mistakenly thinking that a general rule can somehow be piggybacked in to counteract a specific situation that the feat allows.
Posters do not control the page in which their post appears. My factors influence this and frankly not sure what the page number has to do with anything. Full disclosure, I can't guarantee the page this post will appear on either, maybe page 4 or page 5. We will see when I post. Anyway, I have brought up in a few posts how there are comments in this thread that are not fully accurate with regards to spells and spellcasting.
For example, your statement, "Yes! And if you have a way to cast it then this feat allows you to do so." is absolutely incorrect. And it is proven by arguments that you have made in this thread. A character can have a way to cast Magic Missile that does not use INT as a spellcasting ability. This is very important, and it is not something to be glossed over. When one glosses over or takes for granted the requirements for a game element they can end up drawing conclusions that are factual inaccurate or perceive that specific rules are presented in a description when they do not exist.
By faulty assuming that a spell has the spellcating ability, and not the feature that allows for Spellcasting, readers and posters may also now take for granted other key requirements for the spell to be cast. One faulty assumption can lead to another, and another, etc. This why posters on this board raise specific questions and discuss the details of a description for a game feature. The goal is to not take for granted the text, and just as importantly, not to create or intrepret specific rules that are not presented in the text. This is why the example of Chemical Mastery is good to reference in this thread. The verbiage in the description clearly calls out the exception to the general ruleset by referencing attributes the character gains and explicitly defines conditions that can be removed when performing activities through the feat. The developers ask these questions and work to ensure information is presented so players know what the specific rules are and the exceptions to the general ruleset.
The discussion throughout this tread has been based on the interpretation of how a spellcasting focus work and can be applied, the impact of casting a spell using INT ability score, and their overall relationship to the requirements of spell. With lack of specificity to something in a rule text, then the only applicable option is to revert to the general ruleset. Artificer Initiate feat does not alter a spell's requirements in anyway: the feat allows for the selection of a Cantrip and a 1st level spell (which you can cast once per long rest without expending a spell slot); and the feat grants proficiency with an artisan tool and allows that tool to be used as a spellcasting focus for spellcasting that uses INT as the spellcasting ability. It does not change how a spellcasting focus functions and it does not alter any requirements of the spell.
OK, so if we're gonna use this absolutist interpretation of the feat, and "...you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability" somehow means it overrides the normal spellcasting/focus rules...
Does that feat let you cast an M* spell with the focus? Does it also override "if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell"?
Does it let a wizard cast Force Cage without expending 1500GP worth of ruby dust?
Conflagrating the issue doesn't obfuscate what the feat allows you to do.
You gain proficiency with one type of artisan’s tools of your choice, and you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
How come no direct questions are ever answered by the person who has the view no one agrees with?
Two questions remain catastrophically (for the erroneous view) unanswered: What is different about any other feature that defines what items can be used as a focus? What part of the feat changes how focuses work with INT spells?
You can't seriously expect me to believe when you read that feat now that you don't see my point of view even when I've spelled it out for you.
The feat even says you can't use the tools for a spellcasting focus unless it's to cast any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
If they included any type of wording that said otherwise like is found elsewhere I wouldn't be arguing the RAW so adamantly but scattered throughout the sentence are the only references we have... any spell, they literally say any spell, and still people try to say they don't mean spells without the M component. They go on to clarify which spells are affected by the feat and which are not... any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability... how can anyone reasonably think to try and include further exceptions that simply aren't listed in the feat?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"A rightful place awaits you in the Realms Above, in the Land of the Great Light. Come in peace, and live beneath the sun again, where trees and flowers grow."
— The message of Eilistraee to all decent drow.
"Run thy sword across my chains, Silver Lady, that I may join your dance.”
No, i don't see your point of view, because i know how the rules work. The feat doesn't mention changing how spells are cast, so spells are cast as normal.
Again, two catastrophic problems for your incorrect interpretation: 1) Other rules worded the same way work differnently. 2) No words in the rule you quote actually say the feat does the thing you claim.
Again, any evidence above NONE AT ALL would be needed for you to claim that the rules do something more than what they say.
I mean, "do what you want" is always a solution.
But there is a correct answer. When a specific rule makes a change to a general rule, follow the specific one. When a specific rule doesn't change a general rule (like how this one makes no mention of changing focuses or M components) then you follow the general rule.
Again, compare the feat with Tools Required. The artificer class feature tells you that it changes spells so that they work with a focus. The feat does not. The feat therefore doesn't change spells or how a focus works. So what rules do you use: the general ones. What do the general rules say? Focuses replace M components of spells (and therefore only apply to spells with M components).
It is pretty poor rules understanding to rule differently.
Everyone I know who takes a feat usually does what the feat allows them to do.
This allows anyone to take Alchemist Supplies and cast Magic Missile so I'm going to continue to do so.
I have literally played in hundreds of games and never seen anyone say that the general rules don't allow you to do a specific part of a feat.
You have to convince your DM. (Or maybe you are the DM.)
Your argument isn't convincing (in fact it's pretty easy to disprove), so good luck with that.
No one is separating the spellcasting focus from what spells it can be used for. However, the rules for the use of a spellcasting focus are clearly defined and no where in the description of the Artificer Initiate feat does it state the focus gains additional functionality or overrules any other general rulesets. Something that gains the ability to qualify as a spellcasting focus only means it can function as a focus and the limits defined by the game ruleset.
Actually, this is all you can use the tools for: a spellcasting focus. The condition of "you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability" is to limit the character's use of this particular spellcasting focus; without this caveat then a character who has multiple spellcasting features would be allowed to use this as a focus for all their casting options. But under these set conditions, the feat only allows the selected tool to be used as a spellcasting focus.
Spells do not use a spellcasting ability; Spellcasting using a spellcasting ability. The feature that grants the character Spellcasting will also identity the spellcasting ability. Take Thunderwave as an example:
The spell does not state is an INT ability score based spell. The spellcasting ability type is not a requirement for the spell.
The spellcasting ability is based on the feature that grants the character access for casting the spell. The most cited example is class that grants spellcasting (as cited above), but not all classes use the same spellcasting abilities. Furthermore, the class (as well as other game features) often have a requirement to have the spell either known or prepared in order to cast; or a define set of criteria that allows casting (i.e. once per long rest). But now matter how it is laid out, the spell is not what determines the spellcasting ability; it is the feature the character is using to cast the spell that determines the spellcasting ability.
So in short, there is no list of spells that use INT as a spellcasting ability; instead it is the character's feature(s) that grant spellcasting of a subset of spells and the feature defines INT for the spellcasting abilty.
You make this statement, yet you are the one who is looking to not follow RAW and proposing rules without citing specified exceptions. You admitted in an earlier post that the feat doesn't spell it out as clearly as some other rules; and this thread was started by citing a feature that clearly calls out exceptions to the general ruleset (the example class feature clear states "without" several time to distinguish when a general rule is being overruled). So if the feat does not follow the standard format(s) to make exceptions to the general ruleset then where in RAW does it state the general ruleset is not long applicable. Even the argument of using INT as a spellcasting ability is not being applied correctly because the spellcasting ability is not spell based but feature based. The spellcating ability is determined by the character's feature that grants access to and allows for casting of the spell. The spellcasting ability is not related to a spell's components, and no where in this thread is there an example of or a RAW citation on how the spellcasting ability alleviates or eliminates component requirements. Finally no rule or exception to a rule has been presented that changes how a spellcasting focus is defined to function.
All other rules for knowing and preparing a spell still applies. The character must meet all requires to cast the spell based on their spellcasting features. None of this changes. The only addition is that if the feature uses INT for the spellcasting ability, the character can choose to use their selected artisan tools to meet the requirements of a spellcasting focus.
Exactly! And since the feat allows you to use Alchemist's Supplies to cast the Magic Missile spell then you can do so.
No. You cannot.
You can only cast Magic Missile if you have a feature that grants you spellcasting and that feature allows you to either know, prepare, or provides an inherent ability to cast this spell.
Yes, that is correct. The feat does not allow the character to use Alchemist's Supplies to cast the Magic Missile spell. Therefore you cannot cast the spell.
The only way to cast the spell is for the character to have a feature that grants spellcasting and that feature allows the character to either know, prepare, or provides an inherent ability to cast the particular spell.
Yes! And if you have a way to cast it then this feat allows you to do so.
Why would you suddenly bring that up after 4 pages in. Did you mistakenly think I thought the feat somehow gave you the spell for free?
Sort of like you are mistakenly thinking that a general rule can somehow be piggybacked in to counteract a specific situation that the feat allows.
No it doesn't. Either this is a poor statement or misunderstanding.
Hard to tell. You mistakenly think it changes how spells are cast.
Again, this shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how the rules work. I'm sorry, but really I think that with this much of a deep rooted misunderstanding of how the rules work (or even how to read them), the correct conclusion will continue to evade you.
If the feat gave you any evidence that it changed how focuses work or how spell components work, I'm sure you'd just post that by now, after four pages. Since you can't post that text, that must mean there is no text. That must mean that the tools work like any other focus for spells with M components.
The thing I can't fathom is why you still think the Wizard Spellcasting rule is different from this feat's rule? You don't ever explain it with rules. You only use made up literal nonsense (I can actually make no sense of it) as to why they're different. One says you can use a focus to cast some spells and the other says you can use a focus to cast some spells, but for some reason you keep emphasizing some nonexistent difference in how to apply the two rules.
It is incomprehensible.
I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I'm trying to get you to understand how to read rules.
Semantics (meaning) is exactly what we are arguing. Both game features have the exact semantic construction but as far as you've shown here, you have invented a reason for them to behave differently. I asked you to show me why you think they behave differently. You, being consistently unable to show using rules why they would behave differently, have only repeated the same inane literal nonsense ad nauseam.
How do you cast a V,S spell with a focus? What rules tell you about it? What rules in the feat either change how a focus is used or how M components behave in a spell.
Here, I'll spot you: in Tools required, the part that says "You must have a spellcasting focus—specifically thieves’ tools or some kind of artisan’s tool—in hand when you cast any spell with this Spellcasting feature (meaning the spell has an ‘M’ component when you cast it)" is the part that does it for that feature.
For Chemical Mastery the part that says " and without material components, provided you use alchemist’s supplies as the spellcasting focus" is the part that does it for that feature.
What's the part of the feat that does it? That is all you need to show: some rule that lets you use a focus for a V,S spell. That's it. If you can provide that rule then it is in the rules... and if you can't... Well, you haven't been able to do it so far over the last 4 pages...
You keep saying the rules do what they tell you, but have yet to point to a rule telling you that you can do what you are claiming. You are just assuming, incorrectly.
The feat does not give you an artisan tool to use as a focus to cast spells as some on here have claimed. They are incorrect in that assumption because they have rushed to a conclusion that they stubbornly cling to and to do so they have had to resort to quoting rules outside of the feat instead of looking inside the feat to see what it can do.
The feat does give you an artisan tool to use as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
This is the part that keeps giving you guys trouble, the part that is highlighted in bold is the part of the feat that allows you to use the spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
Translation: Take Alchemist Supplies and cast Magic Missile so long as you have the actual alchemist supplies and have the spell prepared or learned or have some way within the rules to legally cast it. As by now you may of realized that I am a stickler for the rules when I have to be.
So what rules tell you about using a spell casting focus for a spell that uses INT as its spell casting ability, whether or not it has M components?
Again, I'm looking for what the rules tell us that means. That is what I asked for in the previous post when you just pointed back at a rule that says nothing about that again.
What's the rule that tells you how to do that?
Where is the contradiction to the general rule? "Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins." If there isn't a contradiction, then the general rule still applies.
Posters do not control the page in which their post appears. My factors influence this and frankly not sure what the page number has to do with anything. Full disclosure, I can't guarantee the page this post will appear on either, maybe page 4 or page 5. We will see when I post. Anyway, I have brought up in a few posts how there are comments in this thread that are not fully accurate with regards to spells and spellcasting.
For example, your statement, "Yes! And if you have a way to cast it then this feat allows you to do so." is absolutely incorrect. And it is proven by arguments that you have made in this thread. A character can have a way to cast Magic Missile that does not use INT as a spellcasting ability. This is very important, and it is not something to be glossed over. When one glosses over or takes for granted the requirements for a game element they can end up drawing conclusions that are factual inaccurate or perceive that specific rules are presented in a description when they do not exist.
By faulty assuming that a spell has the spellcating ability, and not the feature that allows for Spellcasting, readers and posters may also now take for granted other key requirements for the spell to be cast. One faulty assumption can lead to another, and another, etc. This why posters on this board raise specific questions and discuss the details of a description for a game feature. The goal is to not take for granted the text, and just as importantly, not to create or intrepret specific rules that are not presented in the text. This is why the example of Chemical Mastery is good to reference in this thread. The verbiage in the description clearly calls out the exception to the general ruleset by referencing attributes the character gains and explicitly defines conditions that can be removed when performing activities through the feat. The developers ask these questions and work to ensure information is presented so players know what the specific rules are and the exceptions to the general ruleset.
The discussion throughout this tread has been based on the interpretation of how a spellcasting focus work and can be applied, the impact of casting a spell using INT ability score, and their overall relationship to the requirements of spell. With lack of specificity to something in a rule text, then the only applicable option is to revert to the general ruleset. Artificer Initiate feat does not alter a spell's requirements in anyway: the feat allows for the selection of a Cantrip and a 1st level spell (which you can cast once per long rest without expending a spell slot); and the feat grants proficiency with an artisan tool and allows that tool to be used as a spellcasting focus for spellcasting that uses INT as the spellcasting ability. It does not change how a spellcasting focus functions and it does not alter any requirements of the spell.
OK, so if we're gonna use this absolutist interpretation of the feat, and "...you can use that type of tool as a spellcasting focus for any spell you cast that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability" somehow means it overrides the normal spellcasting/focus rules...
Does that feat let you cast an M* spell with the focus? Does it also override "if a cost is indicated for a component, a character must have that specific component before he or she can cast the spell"?
Does it let a wizard cast Force Cage without expending 1500GP worth of ruby dust?
Conflagrating the issue doesn't obfuscate what the feat allows you to do.
Alchemist Supplies
Magic Missile
How come no direct questions are ever answered by the person who has the view no one agrees with?
Two questions remain catastrophically (for the erroneous view) unanswered: What is different about any other feature that defines what items can be used as a focus? What part of the feat changes how focuses work with INT spells?
You can't seriously expect me to believe when you read that feat now that you don't see my point of view even when I've spelled it out for you.
The feat even says you can't use the tools for a spellcasting focus unless it's to cast any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability.
If they included any type of wording that said otherwise like is found elsewhere I wouldn't be arguing the RAW so adamantly but scattered throughout the sentence are the only references we have... any spell, they literally say any spell, and still people try to say they don't mean spells without the M component. They go on to clarify which spells are affected by the feat and which are not... any spell that uses Intelligence as its spellcasting ability... how can anyone reasonably think to try and include further exceptions that simply aren't listed in the feat?
No, i don't see your point of view, because i know how the rules work. The feat doesn't mention changing how spells are cast, so spells are cast as normal.
Again, two catastrophic problems for your incorrect interpretation: 1) Other rules worded the same way work differnently. 2) No words in the rule you quote actually say the feat does the thing you claim.
Again, any evidence above NONE AT ALL would be needed for you to claim that the rules do something more than what they say.
I'm pretty convinced this entire thread is a troll. (and given previous threads, it should have been obvious from the beginning.)
Constructive debate is basically impossible here. Maybe a mod can lock it?