So I thought of an interesting scenario. Say someone is a sorcerer who has the eldritch adept feat with the armor of shadows invocation. If they use the invocation to cast mage armor on themself, can they twin it? Technicality it's a single target spell that doesn't have a range of self, even though the invocation has the self restricted use of the spell. If yes, then potentially you can cast it on a party member without using spell slot or having the spell access by other means.
It seems like it's within the bounds of the rules technically. I'd definitely run this one by your DM though, since many DMs don't allow everything that the rules technically do.
It seems like it's within the bounds of the rules technically. I'd definitely run this one by your DM though, since many DMs don't allow everything that the rules technically do.
I agree. This is definitely in the territory of Ask Your DM. I suspect that many wouldn't mind since it isn't that powerful a use and still costs 1 2 sorcery points to twin the spell.
However, a DM could easily rule that the wording of the invocation "You can cast mage armoron yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components." .. effectively changes the casting of Mage Armor performed using the invocation to a self only spell that is then ineligible to be twinned.
"When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip)."
Arguably, the invocation version of the spell DOES have a range of self since the invocation restricts you to casting it only on yourself. As such, it can't be twinned.
It seems like it's within the bounds of the rules technically. I'd definitely run this one by your DM though, since many DMs don't allow everything that the rules technically do.
...
Arguably, the invocation version of the spell DOES have a range of self since the invocation restricts you to casting it only on yourself. As such, it can't be twinned.
So .. bottom line is ask your DM.
That's the same conclusion I came to, but it is a point of argument, not a clear cut statement, but overall, I had the same thoughts.
The Armor of Shadows Invocation doesn't change the Mage Armor spell itself. It's still a Touch range spell. But if you are casting the spell by using this Invocation Feature then you can only cast it on yourself as per the description of the Mage Armor Invocation:
Armor of Shadows
You can cast mage armor on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
At this point you could twin the spell to target a willing creature who isn't wearing armor within touch range. You could even repeat this process to cast this spell onto your entire party if you want to spend the necessary sorcery points to do so.
It seems like it's within the bounds of the rules technically. I'd definitely run this one by your DM though, since many DMs don't allow everything that the rules technically do.
I agree. This is definitely in the territory of Ask Your DM. I suspect that many wouldn't mind since it isn't that powerful a use and still costs 2 sorcery points to twin the spell.
However, a DM could easily rule that the wording of the invocation "You can cast mage armoron yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components." .. effectively changes the casting of Mage Armor performed using the invocation to a self only spell that is then ineligible to be twinned.
"When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip)."
Arguably, the invocation version of the spell DOES have a range of self since the invocation restricts you to casting it only on yourself. As such, it can't be twinned.
So .. bottom line is ask your DM.
It should only cost one sorcery point because mage armor is a lvl1 spell. But I don't think your argument is plausible. You can claim the spell range "effectively" is self, but twin spell doesn't go off of effective range. A DM can decide whatever, but I don't see any RAW support for this argument. It kind of has the same flavor as people who argue that an adjuration wizard using this invocation to cast mage armor consecutively doesn't replenish their arcane ward because mage armor cast "at will" would "effectively" make it a cantrip. The invocation doesn't actually change the level of the spell, nor does it change the range of the spell.
But perhaps you could make a RAI argument that twin spell is meant to exclude the ability to expand a spell casting restricted to self to others. My only argument to that is mage armor is not normally restricted this way, so said expansion of this restriction is not unprecidented for mage armor. Also I don't know if this is good let alone broken, so there's that.
The Invocation Armor of Shadows doesn't change the spell's range of touch but limit you to cast mage armor on yourself and therefore should be eligible for Twin Spell Metamagic.
Range: Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch
It seems like it's within the bounds of the rules technically. I'd definitely run this one by your DM though, since many DMs don't allow everything that the rules technically do.
I agree. This is definitely in the territory of Ask Your DM. I suspect that many wouldn't mind since it isn't that powerful a use and still costs 2 sorcery points to twin the spell.
However, a DM could easily rule that the wording of the invocation "You can cast mage armoron yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components." .. effectively changes the casting of Mage Armor performed using the invocation to a self only spell that is then ineligible to be twinned.
"When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip)."
Arguably, the invocation version of the spell DOES have a range of self since the invocation restricts you to casting it only on yourself. As such, it can't be twinned.
So .. bottom line is ask your DM.
It should only cost one sorcery point because mage armor is a lvl1 spell. But I don't think your argument is plausible. You can claim the spell range "effectively" is self, but twin spell doesn't go off of effective range. A DM can decide whatever, but I don't see any RAW support for this argument. It kind of has the same flavor as people who argue that an adjuration wizard using this invocation to cast mage armor consecutively doesn't replenish their arcane ward because mage armor cast "at will" would "effectively" make it a cantrip. The invocation doesn't actually change the level of the spell, nor does it change the range of the spell.
But perhaps you could make a RAI argument that twin spell is meant to exclude the ability to expand a spell casting restricted to self to others. My only argument to that is mage armor is not normally restricted this way, so said expansion of this restriction is not unprecidented for mage armor. Also I don't know if this is good let alone broken, so there's that.
You're right about the 1 sorcery point .. I was thinking of quicken and revised my original post.
As for the range of the spell, all the invocation says is: "You can cast mage armor on yourself at will" .. can you cast the invocation version of Mage Armor on anyone else? No.
I also said it was arguable either way so that the DM will have to decide.
Clearly, the invocation version of Mage Armor is different from the spell. It can be cast at will, it does not require a spell slot and it can target only the caster. A character casting the Mage Armor spell itself is able to target anyone with it .. it is a spell that does not have a range of self and so is eligible to be twinned. The invocation version of Mage Armor has more restrictions including self only targeting. The caster CAN'T target anyone but themselves with the spell. If that is not the definition of a spell with a range of self then I am not sure what is.
So, does the invocation allow you to cast Mage Armor? No it does not because Mage Armor has a range of Touch and can be cast on anyone. However, one interpreation is that the invocation allows you to cast a spell similar to mage armor with the added constraint of a range of self only. OR .. perhaps the invocation allows you to cast Mage Armor but the fact that you can't target anyone but yourself is some sort of constraint separate from the spell itself imposed by the rules and unrelated to the spell itself?
It basically comes down to whether the DM decides whether the invocation allows the casting of Mage Armor with modifications to the spell or with some sort of separate additional constraints imposed that are separate from the spell. It depends on whether the DM interprets the invocation to mean that the Range of Mage Armor is changed to Touch (self-only) when cast as an invocation (which accurately describes the text of the invocation) or whether the spell cast using the invocation is identical to a regular Mage Armor spell but the caster limits themselves to casting it only on themselves because their patron prevents the magic from working on anyone else (or any other explanation a DM might care to introduce).
Personally, I think either way is a valid interpretation of RAW which is why I'd say ask the DM. :)
Any time there is shenaniganery involved, whether it is strictly RAW or not, you should ask your DM. Anything involving edge case use of sorcery points falls squarely in that category.
Here's my devil's advocate position for why this shouldn't work: since the invocation states you can cast Mage Armor "on yourself" at will, it doesn't matter if you Twin it, Extend it, cast it from your familiar; the only valid target is yourself. So it's not an issue of range, it's a matter of target exclusivity as defined by the Invocation.
My genuine position is that I'd probably allow this combo just because it's not that strong. One extra party member having the equivalent of Studded Leather for the cost of an entire feat and 1 Sorcery Point per 8 hours doesn't seem game breaking. Maybe there's some condition where this would be a serious problem but I can't imagine it.
Here's my devil's advocate position for why this shouldn't work: since the invocation states you can cast Mage Armor "on yourself" at will, it doesn't matter if you Twin it . . . the only valid target is yourself. So it's not an issue of range, it's a matter of target exclusivity as defined by the Invocation.
No, we are no longer resolving the situation using the rules of the Invocation once that feature is used to cast the spell. We use the rules for the Twinning Feature to resolve the twinning of the spell, including how to determine the valid targets for the second target of the spell allowed by the Twinning Feature. That feature states that "When you cast a spell" (which we are doing with the Invocation) you can "target a second creature in range with the same spell". That's the requirement -- the range of the spell. The range of the spell is unchanged by the Invocation.
No, we are no longer resolving the situation using the rules of the Invocation once that feature is used to cast the spell. We use the rules for the Twinning Feature to resolve the twinning of the spell, including how to determine the valid targets for the second target of the spell allowed by the Twinning Feature. That feature states that "When you cast a spell" (which we are doing with the Invocation) you can "target a second creature in range with the same spell". That's the requirement -- the range of the spell. The range of the spell is unchanged by the Invocation.
I'm not going to say that you're wrong, but I am going to say that I disagree.
I think you're viewing the Invocation and the Metamagic as two discrete events that are resolved in isolation: 1. Activate Armor of Shadows to cast Mage Armor (can only target self) 2. Activate Twinned Spell on Mage Armor (Target a second creature in range). This is fine if that's how you see the features, but I don't agree that's how the features should be seen.
I think both features should occur simultaneously, and therefore interfere with each other. Thus the action would resolve in one step, like this: 1. Activate Armor of Shadows to cast Mage Armor, applying Twinned Spell (can target a second creature in range)(can only target self). So you would cast Mage Armor on yourself and one other valid target in range, but there are no other valid targets in range because Armor of Shadows precludes you from targeting creatures other than yourself (if I were actually enforcing this in my game I would refund the Sorcery Point). To me this is pretty straightforward; Metamagic doesn't let you break the rules of the spell you're casting, and the Mage Armor cast by Armor of Shadows can only target yourself.
Yeaaah... The RAW isn't clear on this one. Ask your DM.
There's a clear argument both for and against doing it and neither is actually exclusively supported by the rules.
For: Armor of Shadows says you target yourself, but doesn't say you have to be the ONLY target of the spell.
Against: Because Armor of Shadows only allows you to target yourself, it can't be Twinned to another target.
As a DM, I wouldn't be against using it this way, only because Mage Armor isn't that strong to begin with. They're saving a single 1st-level spell slot and potentially one prepared spell at the cost of a sorcery point.
Yeaaah... The RAW isn't clear on this one. Ask your DM.
There's a clear argument both for and against doing it and neither is actually exclusively supported by the rules.
For: Armor of Shadows says you target yourself, but doesn't say you have to be the ONLY target of the spell.
Against: Because Armor of Shadows only allows you to target yourself, it can't be Twinned to another target.
As a DM, I wouldn't be against using it this way, only because Mage Armor isn't that strong to begin with. They're saving a single 1st-level spell slot and potentially one prepared spell at the cost of a sorcery point.
I think the RAW is more clear than you give credit. AoS clearly states that you can cast mage armor on yourself at will. The twin spell condition is "when you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self..." mage armor, even with AoS, is a spell cast on one creature and doesn't have a range of self. So you can "target a second creature in range with the same spell." A second creature in range of mage armor would include any creator in touch range who's unarmered.
Keep in mind, you are not casting AoS, you are casting mage armor. AoS allows you to cast it with restriction, but you cast it nonetheless. By casting it on yourself, you have followed that restriction. Twinning it to another target doesn't change the fact that you used AoS to cast mage armor on yourself. There's no conflict, just a loophole.
And yeah, it's probably not that good. Just thought it was interesting.
The Armor of Shadows Invocation let you cast mage armor on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
The mage armor range is touch, which the target of a spell must be within when you cast it. It targets a willing creature that you touch. Armor of Shadows further limit the target you can choose as part of the spell's effect. The only creature you can touch is yourself.
Metamagic grant the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs.
Twinned Spell says when you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip). To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level.
Since when you only choose target as part of a spell's effect, when casting mage armor via Armor of Shadows, it's still a spell with a range of touch incapable of targeting more than one creature, it should be eligible to be a Twinned Spell strictly speaking RAW. To put it in perspective here's how it look like:
You touch a willing creature yourself who isn’t wearing armor, and a protective magical force surrounds it until the spell ends. The target’s base AC becomes 13 + its Dexterity modifier. The spell ends if the target dons armor or if you dismiss the spell as an action.
Range: Most spells have ranges expressed in feet. Some spells can target only a creature (including you) that you touch. Other spells, such as the shield spell, affect only you. These spells have a range of self.
Targets: A typical spell requires you to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell's magic
So I thought of an interesting scenario. Say someone is a sorcerer who has the eldritch adept feat with the armor of shadows invocation. If they use the invocation to cast mage armor on themself, can they twin it? Technicality it's a single target spell that doesn't have a range of self, even though the invocation has the self restricted use of the spell. If yes, then potentially you can cast it on a party member without using spell slot or having the spell access by other means.
It seems like it's within the bounds of the rules technically. I'd definitely run this one by your DM though, since many DMs don't allow everything that the rules technically do.
I agree. This is definitely in the territory of Ask Your DM. I suspect that many wouldn't mind since it isn't that powerful a use and still costs 1
2sorcery points to twin the spell.However, a DM could easily rule that the wording of the invocation "You can cast mage armor on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components." .. effectively changes the casting of Mage Armor performed using the invocation to a self only spell that is then ineligible to be twinned.
"When you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip)."
Arguably, the invocation version of the spell DOES have a range of self since the invocation restricts you to casting it only on yourself. As such, it can't be twinned.
So .. bottom line is ask your DM.
That's the same conclusion I came to, but it is a point of argument, not a clear cut statement, but overall, I had the same thoughts.
The Armor of Shadows Invocation doesn't change the Mage Armor spell itself. It's still a Touch range spell. But if you are casting the spell by using this Invocation Feature then you can only cast it on yourself as per the description of the Mage Armor Invocation:
At this point you could twin the spell to target a willing creature who isn't wearing armor within touch range. You could even repeat this process to cast this spell onto your entire party if you want to spend the necessary sorcery points to do so.
It should only cost one sorcery point because mage armor is a lvl1 spell. But I don't think your argument is plausible. You can claim the spell range "effectively" is self, but twin spell doesn't go off of effective range. A DM can decide whatever, but I don't see any RAW support for this argument. It kind of has the same flavor as people who argue that an adjuration wizard using this invocation to cast mage armor consecutively doesn't replenish their arcane ward because mage armor cast "at will" would "effectively" make it a cantrip. The invocation doesn't actually change the level of the spell, nor does it change the range of the spell.
But perhaps you could make a RAI argument that twin spell is meant to exclude the ability to expand a spell casting restricted to self to others. My only argument to that is mage armor is not normally restricted this way, so said expansion of this restriction is not unprecidented for mage armor. Also I don't know if this is good let alone broken, so there's that.
The Invocation Armor of Shadows doesn't change the spell's range of touch but limit you to cast mage armor on yourself and therefore should be eligible for Twin Spell Metamagic.
You're right about the 1 sorcery point .. I was thinking of quicken and revised my original post.
As for the range of the spell, all the invocation says is: "You can cast mage armor on yourself at will" .. can you cast the invocation version of Mage Armor on anyone else? No.
I also said it was arguable either way so that the DM will have to decide.
Clearly, the invocation version of Mage Armor is different from the spell. It can be cast at will, it does not require a spell slot and it can target only the caster. A character casting the Mage Armor spell itself is able to target anyone with it .. it is a spell that does not have a range of self and so is eligible to be twinned. The invocation version of Mage Armor has more restrictions including self only targeting. The caster CAN'T target anyone but themselves with the spell. If that is not the definition of a spell with a range of self then I am not sure what is.
So, does the invocation allow you to cast Mage Armor? No it does not because Mage Armor has a range of Touch and can be cast on anyone. However, one interpreation is that the invocation allows you to cast a spell similar to mage armor with the added constraint of a range of self only. OR .. perhaps the invocation allows you to cast Mage Armor but the fact that you can't target anyone but yourself is some sort of constraint separate from the spell itself imposed by the rules and unrelated to the spell itself?
It basically comes down to whether the DM decides whether the invocation allows the casting of Mage Armor with modifications to the spell or with some sort of separate additional constraints imposed that are separate from the spell. It depends on whether the DM interprets the invocation to mean that the Range of Mage Armor is changed to Touch (self-only) when cast as an invocation (which accurately describes the text of the invocation) or whether the spell cast using the invocation is identical to a regular Mage Armor spell but the caster limits themselves to casting it only on themselves because their patron prevents the magic from working on anyone else (or any other explanation a DM might care to introduce).
Personally, I think either way is a valid interpretation of RAW which is why I'd say ask the DM. :)
Any time there is shenaniganery involved, whether it is strictly RAW or not, you should ask your DM. Anything involving edge case use of sorcery points falls squarely in that category.
Here's my devil's advocate position for why this shouldn't work: since the invocation states you can cast Mage Armor "on yourself" at will, it doesn't matter if you Twin it, Extend it, cast it from your familiar; the only valid target is yourself. So it's not an issue of range, it's a matter of target exclusivity as defined by the Invocation.
My genuine position is that I'd probably allow this combo just because it's not that strong. One extra party member having the equivalent of Studded Leather for the cost of an entire feat and 1 Sorcery Point per 8 hours doesn't seem game breaking. Maybe there's some condition where this would be a serious problem but I can't imagine it.
No, we are no longer resolving the situation using the rules of the Invocation once that feature is used to cast the spell. We use the rules for the Twinning Feature to resolve the twinning of the spell, including how to determine the valid targets for the second target of the spell allowed by the Twinning Feature. That feature states that "When you cast a spell" (which we are doing with the Invocation) you can "target a second creature in range with the same spell". That's the requirement -- the range of the spell. The range of the spell is unchanged by the Invocation.
I'm not going to say that you're wrong, but I am going to say that I disagree.
I think you're viewing the Invocation and the Metamagic as two discrete events that are resolved in isolation: 1. Activate Armor of Shadows to cast Mage Armor (can only target self) 2. Activate Twinned Spell on Mage Armor (Target a second creature in range). This is fine if that's how you see the features, but I don't agree that's how the features should be seen.
I think both features should occur simultaneously, and therefore interfere with each other. Thus the action would resolve in one step, like this: 1. Activate Armor of Shadows to cast Mage Armor, applying Twinned Spell (can target a second creature in range)(can only target self). So you would cast Mage Armor on yourself and one other valid target in range, but there are no other valid targets in range because Armor of Shadows precludes you from targeting creatures other than yourself (if I were actually enforcing this in my game I would refund the Sorcery Point). To me this is pretty straightforward; Metamagic doesn't let you break the rules of the spell you're casting, and the Mage Armor cast by Armor of Shadows can only target yourself.
It's not a matter of simultaneous events or not. It's just a matter of Features doing what they say.
The Invocation allows you to successfully cast a spell. "When" that happens, you can choose another target within range. There is no conflict.
Yeaaah... The RAW isn't clear on this one. Ask your DM.
There's a clear argument both for and against doing it and neither is actually exclusively supported by the rules.
For: Armor of Shadows says you target yourself, but doesn't say you have to be the ONLY target of the spell.
Against: Because Armor of Shadows only allows you to target yourself, it can't be Twinned to another target.
As a DM, I wouldn't be against using it this way, only because Mage Armor isn't that strong to begin with. They're saving a single 1st-level spell slot and potentially one prepared spell at the cost of a sorcery point.
I think the RAW is more clear than you give credit. AoS clearly states that you can cast mage armor on yourself at will. The twin spell condition is "when you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self..." mage armor, even with AoS, is a spell cast on one creature and doesn't have a range of self. So you can "target a second creature in range with the same spell." A second creature in range of mage armor would include any creator in touch range who's unarmered.
Keep in mind, you are not casting AoS, you are casting mage armor. AoS allows you to cast it with restriction, but you cast it nonetheless. By casting it on yourself, you have followed that restriction. Twinning it to another target doesn't change the fact that you used AoS to cast mage armor on yourself. There's no conflict, just a loophole.
And yeah, it's probably not that good. Just thought it was interesting.
The Armor of Shadows Invocation let you cast mage armor on yourself at will, without expending a spell slot or material components.
The mage armor range is touch, which the target of a spell must be within when you cast it. It targets a willing creature that you touch. Armor of Shadows further limit the target you can choose as part of the spell's effect. The only creature you can touch is yourself.
Metamagic grant the ability to twist your spells to suit your needs.
Twinned Spell says when you cast a spell that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can spend a number of sorcery points equal to the spell’s level to target a second creature in range with the same spell (1 sorcery point if the spell is a cantrip). To be eligible, a spell must be incapable of targeting more than one creature at the spell’s current level.
Since when you only choose target as part of a spell's effect, when casting mage armor via Armor of Shadows, it's still a spell with a range of touch incapable of targeting more than one creature, it should be eligible to be a Twinned Spell strictly speaking RAW. To put it in perspective here's how it look like:
Mage Armor
1st-level abjuration
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S,
M (a piece of cured leather)Duration: 8 hours
You touch
a willing creatureyourself who isn’t wearing armor, and a protective magical force surrounds it until the spell ends. The target’s base AC becomes 13 + its Dexterity modifier. The spell ends if the target dons armor or if you dismiss the spell as an action.I wholeheartedly agree that twinned works with AoS. The range of touch doesn’t change so twinned works. You just have to be one of the targets per AoS
EZD6 by DM Scotty
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/397599/EZD6-Core-Rulebook?