Here is a question for rogues PHB page 96 i believe says this... Beginning at 7th level, you can nimbly dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as an ancient red dragon’s fiery breath or an ice storm spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.
The question is does that work against something like fireball as you need to make a dex saving throw? And if so is it only 1 time per round like a reaction or is it any time in a round when dex saving throws are needed? So basically how many times can a rogue use evasion
Yes it does work against fireball. It is not a reaction but any time during a round when the rouge is subjected to an effect which causes them to make a dex save to take half damage. Therfore if I am a 7th level rouge and 1000 wizards all cast fireball on me one at a time, I could theoretically survive ant take no damage with evasion acting on each fireball
Yes this Feature is effective against the Fireball spell. The Feature does not specify any restrictions for how often it can be used so therefore you can use it whenever the situation occurs. "When you are subjected to an effect . . ." means any and every time that this happens, your Evasion Feature passively kicks in automatically.
Compare this against other Features such as Sneak Attack which explicitly says "once per turn" or Stroke of Luck which explicitly says "Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest".
The Evasion Feature does not have any such restriction in its wording and so it is unrestricted.
Alright thats what i thought but our DM is fairly new and has never played a rogue and isnt very familiar with them said it seems a bit op to him so asking to help clarify for him
Yes this Feature is effective against the Fireball spell. The Feature does not specify any restrictions for how often it can be used so therefore you can use it whenever the situation occurs. "When you are subjected to an effect . . ." means any and every time that this happens, your Evasion Feature passively kicks in automatically.
Compare this against other Features such as Sneak Attack which explicitly says "once per turn" or Stroke of Luck which explicitly says "Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest".
The Evasion Feature does not have any such restriction in its wording and so it is unrestricted.
Alright here is another question do you have to see it say the guy who cast fireball or a dragon or whatever that is doing their thing to make you make a dex saving throw is behind you does evasion still work or do you gotta be looking at where its coming from? My DM is saying his friend who has more experience DM'ing says you gotta see it to use evasion so now im curious if wizards has put out anything saying that or giving more info on how it works
Again, "When you are subjected to an effect . . ." does not mention anything about knowing or seeing where the effect came from so there is no such restriction.
Keep in mind also that default 5e combat rules assume that "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around" so simply being behind someone doesn't necessarily mean that that person cannot see it coming. Even so, there are AOE scenarios where you don't actually have line of sight but the AOE can still reach you "around the corner" depending on exactly where it was targeted. Even in those cases, the Evasion feature is not restricted by this. The Feature applies "When you are subjected to an effect . . ." no matter the additional circumstances.
Evasion works all the time for any area effect that you get a Dex save for.
Uncanny Dodge requires your Reaction and you must be able to see your attacker to halve the damage. It can be any kind of attack though. Possibly your friends friend is thinking about that.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Your DM may be thinking about the Barbarian's similar Danger Sense feature, which includes some specific wording not found in the Rogue's Evasion ability.
"You have advantage on Dexterity saving throws against effects that you can see, such as traps and spells. To gain this benefit, you can’t be blinded, deafened, or incapacitated."
Evasion works all the time for any area effect that you get a Dex save for.
Uncanny Dodge requires your Reaction and you must be able to see your attacker to halve the damage. It can be any kind of attack though. Possibly your friends friend is thinking about that.
I think part of it is my DM thinks its op cause he cast fireball the other day with a bad guy said alright guys dex saving throw and i was like cool and succeeded and no damage and he was like but its an attack not an area effect when me and 1 of the others tried informing him and wanted to make it 1 time per round like a reaction his friend said not to and i think he just doesnt want me to always be like evasion no damage or half damage... this is a campaign he made himself so i get and fully understand there are homebrew elements in it which is fine but restricting my rogues evasion seems a bit of an over reach to me when i dont think he has restricted stuff for anyone else
Remind your GM that it only applies to dexterity saves and not any other type of saving throw. Evasion is one of the major abilities of rogues (which honestly are a somewhat sub-par class). They don't get any bonuses against Constitution, Strength, or Wisdom saving throws, for example.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Evasion works all the time for any area effect that you get a Dex save for.
Uncanny Dodge requires your Reaction and you must be able to see your attacker to halve the damage. It can be any kind of attack though. Possibly your friends friend is thinking about that.
I think part of it is my DM thinks its op cause he cast fireball the other day with a bad guy said alright guys dex saving throw and i was like cool and succeeded and no damage and he was like but its an attack not an area effect when me and 1 of the others tried informing him and wanted to make it 1 time per round like a reaction his friend said not to and i think he just doesnt want me to always be like evasion no damage or half damage... this is a campaign he made himself so i get and fully understand there are homebrew elements in it which is fine but restricting my rogues evasion seems a bit of an over reach to me when i dont think he has restricted stuff for anyone else
I agree. :) The DM should not really house rule stuff that they don't understand due to a knee jerk reaction that it is too powerful. I've seen DMs do that with Paladin smites and the rogue sneak attack - especially after seeing how effective they are on a crit. If they want to house rule evasion, I'm a bit surprised that they haven't also house ruled sneak attack.
Monks and Rogues both get evasion. I have a monk and a rogue in my home game and they have been able to survive dex save damage based spells extremely well (they characters are now level 17). It is a very cool and fun feature and makes the players feel good to use it. It can be used on ANY dexterity based save effect that allow a save for 1/2 damage (so it doesn't work on Disintegrate for example but would work on fireball or Lightning Bolt) whether the character sees it coming or not, and as many times in one turn as they have separate saves. It really isn't overpowered ... just cool :)
If I want spells that stand a better chance of doing damage to them then perhaps the wizard will cast a cone of cold or cloudkill which are con saves in among the fireballs. Enemies are smart too and when facing a higher level rogue or monk, an intelligent enemy will know to cast a different spell.
Unfortunately, new DMs tend to be a bit less familiar with all the options available so when the rogue or monk avoids lots of damage they want to nerf the character instead of making the much more reasonable adjustments to their NPCs and their encounters. Newer DMs can also tend to be a bit more adversarial ... D&D is a game where the DM should be a neutral arbitrator of the character decisions within the game world and adjudicate how those interactions work out and what the NPCs do in response.
Nerfing character abilities that a DM declares "Overpowered" is often a response based on the NPCs failing to "win" against the PCs due to their cool character abilities. The DM should ideally be celebrating the players success using the cool character abilities and having fun rather than trying to change the rules of the game to let "their" NPCs win. It's much easier to change up the NPCs and leave the PCs the way they are and celebrate the successes with the players. Rules changes like this are often not aimed at creating a more fun play environment for the players but creating one in which the "DMs side" can win or do more damage to the party - which is unfortunate since the DM controls the entire world environment so there is absolutely no need to change the rules to give the DM an advantage.
Personally, the only rules I feel a DM should leave out are ones that tend to mitigate the other player abilities, reduce excitement in the game, or really are overpowered.
Examples - mostly some spells:
Simulacrum - I'd probably leave this one out of most games I play or at least remove the possibility of creating infinite simulacrums - house rules I'd also use would include that a simulacrum casting wish is the same as the original caster casting wish so that the simulacrum doesn't become a mechanism to have unlimited wish spells cast without a risk of side effects.
Coffeelocks - Warlock/sorcerer multiclasses who like to take many short rests and no long rests so that they can build up an infinite number of spell slots by cycling short rest sorcery points (from short rest warlock spell slots) into buying more spell slots. (Spell slots only reset on a long rest). Basically, I'd mandate a long rest every day or incur exhaustion that could not be removed with greater restoration (to avoid the Divine Soul sorcerer/warlock coffeelock at level 11+). (Though to be honest, I'd wouldn't likely need that since I'd chat to the player and they likely agree that infinite spell slots, although cool, would not be in the best interests of the game ... so it wouldn't become an issue in the first place).
Silvery Barbs - I don't use this one mostly because it can take away the excitement and risk of opponents rolling crits. There are some character features (rune knight) that can do something similar but it is 1/short rest. A higher level caster could probably afford to mitigate every fun roll they didn't like and even when being hit by a crit ... the risk is part of the excitement and fun. So I leave this spell out because it reduces player fun on average.
Other than that, I don't think there is anything I'd leave out just because someone might consider it OP.
Anyway, I hope your DM realizes that there is no need to nerf key rogue class abilities for no reason (and I hope they realize that the other DM they are consulting with also doesn't seem to understand how the Evasion feature works and may be confusing it with Uncanny Dodge that DOES require a reaction and an attacker the character can see).
Evasion works all the time for any area effect that you get a Dex save for.
Uncanny Dodge requires your Reaction and you must be able to see your attacker to halve the damage. It can be any kind of attack though. Possibly your friends friend is thinking about that.
I think part of it is my DM thinks its op cause he cast fireball the other day with a bad guy said alright guys dex saving throw and i was like cool and succeeded and no damage and he was like but its an attack not an area effect when me and 1 of the others tried informing him and wanted to make it 1 time per round like a reaction his friend said not to and i think he just doesnt want me to always be like evasion no damage or half damage... this is a campaign he made himself so i get and fully understand there are homebrew elements in it which is fine but restricting my rogues evasion seems a bit of an over reach to me when i dont think he has restricted stuff for anyone else
I agree. :) The DM should not really house rule stuff that they don't understand due to a knee jerk reaction that it is too powerful. I've seen DMs do that with Paladin smites and the rogue sneak attack - especially after seeing how effective they are on a crit. If they want to house rule evasion, I'm a bit surprised that they haven't also house ruled sneak attack.
Monks and Rogues both get evasion. I have a monk and a rogue in my home game and they have been able to survive dex save damage based spells extremely well (they characters are now level 17). It is a very cool and fun feature and makes the players feel good to use it. It can be used on ANY dexterity based save effect that allow a save for 1/2 damage (so it doesn't work on Disintegrate for example but would work on fireball or Lightning Bolt) whether the character sees it coming or not, and as many times in one turn as they have separate saves. It really isn't overpowered ... just cool :)
If I want spells that stand a better chance of doing damage to them then perhaps the wizard will cast a cone of cold or cloudkill which are con saves in among the fireballs. Enemies are smart too and when facing a higher level rogue or monk, an intelligent enemy will know to cast a different spell.
Unfortunately, new DMs tend to be a bit less familiar with all the options available so when the rogue or monk avoids lots of damage they want to nerf the character instead of making the much more reasonable adjustments to their NPCs and their encounters. Newer DMs can also tend to be a bit more adversarial ... D&D is a game where the DM should be a neutral arbitrator of the character decisions within the game world and adjudicate how those interactions work out and what the NPCs do in response.
Nerfing character abilities that a DM declares "Overpowered" is often a response based on the NPCs failing to "win" against the PCs due to their cool character abilities. The DM should ideally be celebrating the players success using the cool character abilities and having fun rather than trying to change the rules of the game to let "their" NPCs win. It's much easier to change up the NPCs and leave the PCs the way they are and celebrate the successes with the players. Rules changes like this are often not aimed at creating a more fun play environment for the players but creating one in which the "DMs side" can win or do more damage to the party - which is unfortunate since the DM controls the entire world environment so there is absolutely no need to change the rules to give the DM an advantage.
Personally, the only rules I feel a DM should leave out are ones that tend to mitigate the other player abilities, reduce excitement in the game, or really are overpowered.
Examples - mostly some spells:
Simulacrum - I'd probably leave this one out of most games I play or at least remove the possibility of creating infinite simulacrums - house rules I'd also use would include that a simulacrum casting wish is the same as the original caster casting wish so that the simulacrum doesn't become a mechanism to have unlimited wish spells cast without a risk of side effects.
Coffeelocks - Warlock/sorcerer multiclasses who like to take many short rests and no long rests so that they can build up an infinite number of spell slots by cycling short rest sorcery points (from short rest warlock spell slots) into buying more spell slots. (Spell slots only reset on a long rest). Basically, I'd mandate a long rest every day or incur exhaustion that could not be removed with greater restoration (to avoid the Divine Soul sorcerer/warlock coffeelock at level 11+). (Though to be honest, I'd wouldn't likely need that since I'd chat to the player and they likely agree that infinite spell slots, although cool, would not be in the best interests of the game ... so it wouldn't become an issue in the first place).
Silvery Barbs - I don't use this one mostly because it can take away the excitement and risk of opponents rolling crits. There are some character features (rune knight) that can do something similar but it is 1/short rest. A higher level caster could probably afford to mitigate every fun roll they didn't like and even when being hit by a crit ... the risk is part of the excitement and fun. So I leave this spell out because it reduces player fun on average.
Other than that, I don't think there is anything I'd leave out just because someone might consider it OP.
Anyway, I hope your DM realizes that there is no need to nerf key rogue class abilities for no reason (and I hope they realize that the other DM they are consulting with also doesn't seem to understand how the Evasion feature works and may be confusing it with Uncanny Dodge that DOES require a reaction and an attacker the character can see).
Not sure if he will come around cause yesterday when talking about it he said this
So my buddy also said with the evasion , it works on all area of effect attacks but you have to be able to see it to use it. If you are hit from behind you cannot use it.
At that point is up to the dungeon master, but according to him, you know if you can’t see something how can you made it so yeah technically you would have to see it to evade it
Let’s just put it this way let’s decide between me and you and say f everyone else’s rules. I vote if you can’t see it you Can’t evade it
Which honestly is part of the reason im trying to find more out about exactly how it works or if there is anywhere that goes into as i agree with everyone else it makes a rogue a rogue and at the same time feel frustrated and like leaving that table as it affects being able to play the class as intended to some degree as they are limiting use of a class feature
Not sure if he will come around cause yesterday when talking about it he said this
So my buddy also said with the evasion , it works on all area of effect attacks but you have to be able to see it to use it. If you are hit from behind you cannot use it.
At that point is up to the dungeon master, but according to him, you know if you can’t see something how can you made it so yeah technically you would have to see it to evade it
Let’s just put it this way let’s decide between me and you and say f everyone else’s rules. I vote if you can’t see it you Can’t evade it
Which honestly is part of the reason im trying to find more out about exactly how it works or if there is anywhere that goes into as i agree with everyone else it makes a rogue a rogue and at the same time feel frustrated and like leaving that table as it affects being able to play the class as intended to some degree as they are limiting use of a class feature
I mean, first of all, if it's making you consider leaving the group, you'll want to make that known. Make it clear that you just want to be able to play the game the way the developers intended.
Second, easy reasoning for why it works if you can't see it: The feature reflects the ability of the character to react on a moment's notice.
Third, a feature to contrast against: Barbarian has Danger Sense, which grants advantage on Dex saves against sources you can see. They're very careful to mention that in the rule, whereas Evasion doesn't specify the ability to see the ability in either Rogue or Monk. This was clearly intentional on the devs' part and taken into account when balancing the classes.
Personally, the only rules I feel a DM should leave out are ones that tend to mitigate the other player abilities, reduce excitement in the game, or really are overpowered.
Examples - mostly some spells:
Simulacrum - I'd probably leave this one out of most games I play or at least remove the possibility of creating infinite simulacrums - house rules I'd also use would include that a simulacrum casting wish is the same as the original caster casting wish so that the simulacrum doesn't become a mechanism to have unlimited wish spells cast without a risk of side effects.
Coffeelocks - Warlock/sorcerer multiclasses who like to take many short rests and no long rests so that they can build up an infinite number of spell slots by cycling short rest sorcery points (from short rest warlock spell slots) into buying more spell slots. (Spell slots only reset on a long rest). Basically, I'd mandate a long rest every day or incur exhaustion that could not be removed with greater restoration (to avoid the Divine Soul sorcerer/warlock coffeelock at level 11+). (Though to be honest, I'd wouldn't likely need that since I'd chat to the player and they likely agree that infinite spell slots, although cool, would not be in the best interests of the game ... so it wouldn't become an issue in the first place).
Silvery Barbs - I don't use this one mostly because it can take away the excitement and risk of opponents rolling crits. There are some character features (rune knight) that can do something similar but it is 1/short rest. A higher level caster could probably afford to mitigate every fun roll they didn't like and even when being hit by a crit ... the risk is part of the excitement and fun. So I leave this spell out because it reduces player fun on average.
I'd just like to point out that, at least in the case of Simulacrum and Wish interacting, that's the same way Adventurer's League handles the combination. You are you, and so are they. The other things, I don't see an issue with the updates here. My takes:
Simulacrum - I don't allow Simulacrums to create Simulacrums, which means no caster can have more than one active at a time.
Coffeelock - The way I DM doesn't allow this anyway. I don't allow players to rest in increments so they can stack multiple Short Rests between encounters. Each gap between encounters can only provide a single Short Rest. (If they take one, it doesn't exclude the ability to Long Rest.)
Silvery Barbs - No. That spell was wrong for them to produce in the first place. Can't use it, but neither can my NPCs. I'm willing to work with a player if they want the background that gives it (even if reflavored for the world they're in) to replace the spell with something else reasonable so they aren't losing something for using it.
One of the issues I see is that the GM is saying Evasion doesn't work against foes who are "behind" you. Fifth Edition does not have facing for characters- everyone is assumed to be looking around on a frequent basis and maintaining situational awareness during combat, there is no "back."
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I mean, first of all, if it's making you consider leaving the group, you'll want to make that known. Make it clear that you just want to be able to play the game the way the developers intended.
Second, easy reasoning for why it works if you can't see it: The feature reflects the ability of the character to react on a moment's notice.
I'll second these good points as well.
In particular, keep in mind that ALL characters already get the ability to make a DEX save vs a spell like Fireball. It doesn't matter if they see it coming or know that it's coming at all -- they still get a chance to take half damage. This simulates an immediate dexterity-based reflex whereby a creature tries to protect itself from taking the full brunt of the damage as something is blowing up in its face. It's built into the spell description. The Rogue Feature is the same idea, but they just do this better than other creatures, so they take even less average damage. Nothing else about the situation has changed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Here is a question for rogues PHB page 96 i believe says this... Beginning at 7th level, you can nimbly dodge out of the way of certain area effects, such as an ancient red dragon’s fiery breath or an ice storm spell. When you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you instead take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, and only half damage if you fail.
The question is does that work against something like fireball as you need to make a dex saving throw? And if so is it only 1 time per round like a reaction or is it any time in a round when dex saving throws are needed? So basically how many times can a rogue use evasion
Yes it does work against fireball. It is not a reaction but any time during a round when the rouge is subjected to an effect which causes them to make a dex save to take half damage. Therfore if I am a 7th level rouge and 1000 wizards all cast fireball on me one at a time, I could theoretically survive ant take no damage with evasion acting on each fireball
Yes this Feature is effective against the Fireball spell. The Feature does not specify any restrictions for how often it can be used so therefore you can use it whenever the situation occurs. "When you are subjected to an effect . . ." means any and every time that this happens, your Evasion Feature passively kicks in automatically.
Compare this against other Features such as Sneak Attack which explicitly says "once per turn" or Stroke of Luck which explicitly says "Once you use this feature, you can’t use it again until you finish a short or long rest".
The Evasion Feature does not have any such restriction in its wording and so it is unrestricted.
That is correct. Rogues can be squishy so things like this help to keep them alive.
It also stacks with resistances. So if you're resistant to fire damage and fail a fireball save, you only take 1/4 damage.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Alright thats what i thought but our DM is fairly new and has never played a rogue and isnt very familiar with them said it seems a bit op to him so asking to help clarify for him
Alright here is another question do you have to see it say the guy who cast fireball or a dragon or whatever that is doing their thing to make you make a dex saving throw is behind you does evasion still work or do you gotta be looking at where its coming from? My DM is saying his friend who has more experience DM'ing says you gotta see it to use evasion so now im curious if wizards has put out anything saying that or giving more info on how it works
Again, "When you are subjected to an effect . . ." does not mention anything about knowing or seeing where the effect came from so there is no such restriction.
Keep in mind also that default 5e combat rules assume that "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around" so simply being behind someone doesn't necessarily mean that that person cannot see it coming. Even so, there are AOE scenarios where you don't actually have line of sight but the AOE can still reach you "around the corner" depending on exactly where it was targeted. Even in those cases, the Evasion feature is not restricted by this. The Feature applies "When you are subjected to an effect . . ." no matter the additional circumstances.
Evasion works all the time for any area effect that you get a Dex save for.
Uncanny Dodge requires your Reaction and you must be able to see your attacker to halve the damage. It can be any kind of attack though. Possibly your friends friend is thinking about that.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Your DM may be thinking about the Barbarian's similar Danger Sense feature, which includes some specific wording not found in the Rogue's Evasion ability.
"You have advantage on Dexterity saving throws against effects that you can see, such as traps and spells. To gain this benefit, you can’t be blinded, deafened, or incapacitated."
I think part of it is my DM thinks its op cause he cast fireball the other day with a bad guy said alright guys dex saving throw and i was like cool and succeeded and no damage and he was like but its an attack not an area effect when me and 1 of the others tried informing him and wanted to make it 1 time per round like a reaction his friend said not to and i think he just doesnt want me to always be like evasion no damage or half damage... this is a campaign he made himself so i get and fully understand there are homebrew elements in it which is fine but restricting my rogues evasion seems a bit of an over reach to me when i dont think he has restricted stuff for anyone else
Remind your GM that it only applies to dexterity saves and not any other type of saving throw. Evasion is one of the major abilities of rogues (which honestly are a somewhat sub-par class). They don't get any bonuses against Constitution, Strength, or Wisdom saving throws, for example.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I agree. :) The DM should not really house rule stuff that they don't understand due to a knee jerk reaction that it is too powerful. I've seen DMs do that with Paladin smites and the rogue sneak attack - especially after seeing how effective they are on a crit. If they want to house rule evasion, I'm a bit surprised that they haven't also house ruled sneak attack.
Monks and Rogues both get evasion. I have a monk and a rogue in my home game and they have been able to survive dex save damage based spells extremely well (they characters are now level 17). It is a very cool and fun feature and makes the players feel good to use it. It can be used on ANY dexterity based save effect that allow a save for 1/2 damage (so it doesn't work on Disintegrate for example but would work on fireball or Lightning Bolt) whether the character sees it coming or not, and as many times in one turn as they have separate saves. It really isn't overpowered ... just cool :)
If I want spells that stand a better chance of doing damage to them then perhaps the wizard will cast a cone of cold or cloudkill which are con saves in among the fireballs. Enemies are smart too and when facing a higher level rogue or monk, an intelligent enemy will know to cast a different spell.
Unfortunately, new DMs tend to be a bit less familiar with all the options available so when the rogue or monk avoids lots of damage they want to nerf the character instead of making the much more reasonable adjustments to their NPCs and their encounters. Newer DMs can also tend to be a bit more adversarial ... D&D is a game where the DM should be a neutral arbitrator of the character decisions within the game world and adjudicate how those interactions work out and what the NPCs do in response.
Nerfing character abilities that a DM declares "Overpowered" is often a response based on the NPCs failing to "win" against the PCs due to their cool character abilities. The DM should ideally be celebrating the players success using the cool character abilities and having fun rather than trying to change the rules of the game to let "their" NPCs win. It's much easier to change up the NPCs and leave the PCs the way they are and celebrate the successes with the players. Rules changes like this are often not aimed at creating a more fun play environment for the players but creating one in which the "DMs side" can win or do more damage to the party - which is unfortunate since the DM controls the entire world environment so there is absolutely no need to change the rules to give the DM an advantage.
Personally, the only rules I feel a DM should leave out are ones that tend to mitigate the other player abilities, reduce excitement in the game, or really are overpowered.
Examples - mostly some spells:
Simulacrum - I'd probably leave this one out of most games I play or at least remove the possibility of creating infinite simulacrums - house rules I'd also use would include that a simulacrum casting wish is the same as the original caster casting wish so that the simulacrum doesn't become a mechanism to have unlimited wish spells cast without a risk of side effects.
Coffeelocks - Warlock/sorcerer multiclasses who like to take many short rests and no long rests so that they can build up an infinite number of spell slots by cycling short rest sorcery points (from short rest warlock spell slots) into buying more spell slots. (Spell slots only reset on a long rest). Basically, I'd mandate a long rest every day or incur exhaustion that could not be removed with greater restoration (to avoid the Divine Soul sorcerer/warlock coffeelock at level 11+). (Though to be honest, I'd wouldn't likely need that since I'd chat to the player and they likely agree that infinite spell slots, although cool, would not be in the best interests of the game ... so it wouldn't become an issue in the first place).
Silvery Barbs - I don't use this one mostly because it can take away the excitement and risk of opponents rolling crits. There are some character features (rune knight) that can do something similar but it is 1/short rest. A higher level caster could probably afford to mitigate every fun roll they didn't like and even when being hit by a crit ... the risk is part of the excitement and fun. So I leave this spell out because it reduces player fun on average.
Other than that, I don't think there is anything I'd leave out just because someone might consider it OP.
Anyway, I hope your DM realizes that there is no need to nerf key rogue class abilities for no reason (and I hope they realize that the other DM they are consulting with also doesn't seem to understand how the Evasion feature works and may be confusing it with Uncanny Dodge that DOES require a reaction and an attacker the character can see).
Not sure if he will come around cause yesterday when talking about it he said this
So my buddy also said with the evasion , it works on all area of effect attacks but you have to be able to see it to use it. If you are hit from behind you cannot use it.
At that point is up to the dungeon master, but according to him, you know if you can’t see something how can you made it so yeah technically you would have to see it to evade it
Let’s just put it this way let’s decide between me and you and say f everyone else’s rules. I vote if you can’t see it you Can’t evade it
Which honestly is part of the reason im trying to find more out about exactly how it works or if there is anywhere that goes into as i agree with everyone else it makes a rogue a rogue and at the same time feel frustrated and like leaving that table as it affects being able to play the class as intended to some degree as they are limiting use of a class feature
Well in the end, even if your GM is technically wrong, it's his game so it's his rules.
It can be a bummer, but eventually they should be able to learn how to work their game.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I mean, first of all, if it's making you consider leaving the group, you'll want to make that known. Make it clear that you just want to be able to play the game the way the developers intended.
Second, easy reasoning for why it works if you can't see it: The feature reflects the ability of the character to react on a moment's notice.
Third, a feature to contrast against: Barbarian has Danger Sense, which grants advantage on Dex saves against sources you can see. They're very careful to mention that in the rule, whereas Evasion doesn't specify the ability to see the ability in either Rogue or Monk. This was clearly intentional on the devs' part and taken into account when balancing the classes.
I'd just like to point out that, at least in the case of Simulacrum and Wish interacting, that's the same way Adventurer's League handles the combination. You are you, and so are they. The other things, I don't see an issue with the updates here. My takes:
Simulacrum - I don't allow Simulacrums to create Simulacrums, which means no caster can have more than one active at a time.
Coffeelock - The way I DM doesn't allow this anyway. I don't allow players to rest in increments so they can stack multiple Short Rests between encounters. Each gap between encounters can only provide a single Short Rest. (If they take one, it doesn't exclude the ability to Long Rest.)
Silvery Barbs - No. That spell was wrong for them to produce in the first place. Can't use it, but neither can my NPCs. I'm willing to work with a player if they want the background that gives it (even if reflavored for the world they're in) to replace the spell with something else reasonable so they aren't losing something for using it.
One of the issues I see is that the GM is saying Evasion doesn't work against foes who are "behind" you. Fifth Edition does not have facing for characters- everyone is assumed to be looking around on a frequent basis and maintaining situational awareness during combat, there is no "back."
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
I'll second these good points as well.
In particular, keep in mind that ALL characters already get the ability to make a DEX save vs a spell like Fireball. It doesn't matter if they see it coming or know that it's coming at all -- they still get a chance to take half damage. This simulates an immediate dexterity-based reflex whereby a creature tries to protect itself from taking the full brunt of the damage as something is blowing up in its face. It's built into the spell description. The Rogue Feature is the same idea, but they just do this better than other creatures, so they take even less average damage. Nothing else about the situation has changed.