Longsword isn’t pointless, Sap and a Shield works nicely defensively.
At lv4 a Fighter with Action Surge and Great Weapon Master could as you say:
1st Attack, draw a Greataxe then attack. Cleave into a second enemy and then stow the axe. Killing both so that you are no longer in melee range with an enemy… and to trigger Great Weapon Master
2nd (/third) attack, draw a Shortsword and attack with it then gain advantage to the next attack. Then with Vex draw and attack with a Scimitar…
But you wouldn’t then be able to put away the two light weapons to draw the Greataxe… soo:
Instead you would draw and throw a Handaxe and a Dagger/Light Hammer which as both offer another interaction as well means you could:
draw a Greataxe then drop it on the floor and use your free object interaction to pick it up again… then move in for your bonus action attack.
That should read 5th level.
I misspoke. You attack with the greataxe, the draw your scimitar. (At the end of the cleave attack) You then attack with the scimitar storing it at the end of its attack and drawing your other Scimitar to complete the actions storing it at the end.
This works as two handed weapons only require two hands when attacking. So five attacks at level 5 not including action surge.
Does this ‘character’ have the Dual Wielder feat? And the fifth attack is from that?
Because this way there is still a problem with this, you wouldn’t be able to draw the Greataxe for the bonus action attack.
You would need four object interactions to draw and stow two light weapons, five if you want to then draw another weapon. The way you are doing it, you have three. Which is why I was saying that throwing a weapon could solve the issue… or Dual Wielder
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D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
Does this ‘character’ have the Dual Wielder feat? And the fifth attack is from that?
Because this way there is still a problem with this, you wouldn’t be able to draw the Greataxe for the bonus action attack.
You would need four object interactions to draw and stow two light weapons, five if you want to then draw another weapon. The way you are doing it, you have three. Which is why I was saying that throwing a weapon could solve the issue… or Dual Wielder
You do need the dual wielder feat to get the 5th attack. But you don't need to worry about stowing the greataxe as you can just hold it in your free hand all combat.
If you try to start it by holding nothing, you get stuck on step 3:
holding nothing draw greataxe + attack greataxe holding greataxe draw scimitar1 + attack scimitar1 holding scimitar1 and greataxe can't draw another weapon as part of your next attack since your hands are full. If you stow a weapon your next attack has to be with a weapon you're already holding.
They previously mentioned that the the various two weapon, throwing weapon, and drawing/stowing rules ended up worded this way because they found it was the easiest way to make sure players with characters who are throwing various objects didn't end up in a surprising scenario where they suddenly can't make their second attack even though they just did it two turns in a row.
It went roughly like this:
Turn 1: 2 Throwing attacks (Start with 2 weapons. Action is Throw+Draw. Bonus is Throw. End with 1 weapon) Turn 2: 2 Throwing attacks (Start with 1 weapon. Action is Throw+Draw. Bonus is Throw. End with 0 weapons) Turn 3 and later: 1 Throwing attack (Start with 0 weapons. Action is Draw+Throw. Bonus is wasted. End with 0 weapons)
If you try to start it by holding nothing, you get stuck on step 3:
holding nothing draw greataxe + attack greataxe holding greataxe draw scimitar1 + attack scimitar1 holding scimitar1 and greataxe can't draw another weapon as part of your next attack since your hands are full. If you stow a weapon your next attack has to be with a weapon you're already holding.
They previously mentioned that the the various two weapon, throwing weapon, and drawing/stowing rules ended up worded this way because they found it was the easiest way to make sure players with characters who are throwing various objects didn't end up in a surprising scenario where they suddenly can't make their second attack even though they just did it two turns in a row.
It went roughly like this:
Turn 1: 2 Throwing attacks (Start with 2 weapons. Action is Throw+Draw. Bonus is Throw. End with 1 weapon) Turn 2: 2 Throwing attacks (Start with 1 weapon. Action is Throw+Draw. Bonus is Throw. End with 0 weapons) Turn 3 and later: 1 Throwing attack (Start with 0 weapons. Action is Draw+Throw. Bonus is wasted. End with 0 weapons)
The key is you never stow the greataxe. You carry it in your hand or hold it in your free hand.
So attack one Greataxe,
Cleave attack draw Scimitar
Attack two Scimitar stow Scimitar
Light attack draw completely new Scimitar
Bonus action Scimitar
Next round.
Attack with Scimitar Stow Scimitar
Attack two make greataxe attack.
Cleave attack draw completely different Scimitar. Etc.
Not sure what you mean but if you mean to draw a new scimitar and make one extra attack as a Bonus Action, you can't do so when making an attack as part of a Bonus Action; only as part of an Attack action.
ATTACK ACTION: Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action.
Not sure what you mean but if you mean to draw a new scimitar and make one extra attack as a Bonus Action, you can't do so when making an attack as part of a Bonus Action; only as part of an Attack action.
ATTACK ACTION: Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action.
Keep in mind Nick moves the Scimitar attack from the bonus action to the attack action and therefore you can draw/stow weapons with that attack.
Only the last attack happens on the bonus action and you wouldn't be able to draw/stow on it.
I read the rule as you only get one free draw/stow per turn. so you can cleave attack, DRAW scimitar...then you're done. You can't drop the scimitar, because you have no stow left. You can't draw because you have no draws left. You cannot draw for every swing you make.
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I read the rule as you only get one free draw/stow per turn. so you can cleave attack, DRAW scimitar...then you're done. You can't drop the scimitar, because you have no stow left. You can't draw because you have no draws left. You cannot draw for every swing you make.
It says you can draw/stow a weapon when you make an attack during the attack action. So I am presuming clave happens as part of the attack action and not in a weird state outside the attack action. And Nick bumps one of the attacks to the attack action. You never need to anything. You just stow it.
I may need to look at the object interaction rules though.
I read the rule as you only get one free draw/stow per turn. so you can cleave attack, DRAW scimitar...then you're done. You can't drop the scimitar, because you have no stow left. You can't draw because you have no draws left. You cannot draw for every swing you make.
So I am presuming clave happens as part of the attack action and not in a weird state outside the attack action.
In my opinion, the Cleave attack is NOT an Attack action attack:
Cleave
If you hit a creature with a melee attack roll using this weapon, you can make a melee attack roll with the weapon against a second creature
This is a feature that is allowing a creature to make an attack and this feature does not explicitly say anything about the attack being part of an Attack action like the Nick property does, for example.
However, I believe that you can still repeat the sequence that you've been proposing in this thread if you also take advantage of your one object interaction from this other combat rule:
Interacting with Things. You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action.
So, you get one interaction from your first Attack action attack (Greataxe), you get a second interaction from you second Attack action attack (via Extra Attack), and you get a third interaction from the Nick property attack. Your fourth interaction comes from the above "Interacting with Things" rule.
So, if you wanted to start out each turn wielding a Greataxe (and ending those turns wielding a Greataxe), you would have these interactions:
Draw Scimitar
Stow Scimitar
Draw Other Scimitar
Stow Other Scimitar
That's 4 interactions, allowing for a repeating cycle of 5 attacks for a Level 5 Fighter with this one Feat. Not too shabby.
So I am presuming clave happens as part of the attack action and not in a weird state outside the attack action.
In my opinion, the Cleave attack is NOT an Attack action attack:
Cleave
If you hit a creature with a melee attack roll using this weapon, you can make a melee attack roll with the weapon against a second creature
This is a feature that is allowing a creature to make an attack and this feature does not explicitly say anything about the attack being part of an Attack action like the Nick property does, for example.
However, I believe that you can still repeat the sequence that you've been proposing in this thread if you also take advantage of your one object interaction from this other combat rule:
Interacting with Things. You can interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or action.
So, you get one interaction from your first Attack action attack (Greataxe), you get a second interaction from you second Attack action attack (via Extra Attack), and you get a third interaction from the Nick property attack. Your fourth interaction comes from the above "Interacting with Things" rule.
So, if you wanted to start out each turn wielding a Greataxe (and ending those turns wielding a Greataxe), you would have these interactions:
Draw Scimitar
Stow Scimitar
Draw Other Scimitar
Stow Other Scimitar
That's 4 interactions, allowing for a repeating cycle of 5 attacks for a Level 5 Fighter with this one Feat. Not too shabby.
Yeah I wouldn't argue that much that Cleave is part of the attack action or not. A maul with topple may be a better option anyway since if the opponent falls prone, you would get advantage on all the other attacks and potentially cause the rest of the party to get advantage as well.
It make sense to not say Cleaveis not part of the Attack action so it can be used on an attack made as a Bonus Action or Reaction such as an Opportunity Attack.
It make sense to not say Cleaveis not part of the Attack action so it can be used on an attack made as a Bonus Action or Reaction such as an Opportunity Attack.
It can be used whenever you can attack but only once per turn (so yes for opportunity attack).
But if you want to Stow your Greataxe again then you’ll want to use it during your action because then it is an attack during your action. I don’t really see any other way to interpret that
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D&D, Youth Work and the Priesthood sadly do not typically interact... I do what I can!
I think the Bonus Action is going to throw a wrench in the swap 'til you drop crowd's panties. The BA from Light Property and the BA from the Dual Wielder feat, unless you have the free object interaction free, is going to be a problem. FOI might not even save you. Swapping weapons using the Nick Mastery should be possible. Is equipping/unequipping going to be allowed between your main and Nick attack? They are being merged. You are attacking twice as part of an attack during an attack action. As stated, I think most DMs are going to put the kibosh on this whole thing. Keep in mind that a Fighter could get 8 attacks per turn over 2 rounds at level 20... One more question. If you drop a weapon, what prevents someone from picking it up and using it. Throwing it? If they're not attacking, then a Fighter with an 18 STR should be able to throw a Great axe 10 feet? Take an attack of opportunity to run and pick up your axe.
The BA from Light Property and the BA from the Dual Wielder feat, unless you have the free object interaction free, is going to be a problem. FOI might not even save you. Swapping weapons using the Nick Mastery should be possible. Is equipping/unequipping going to be allowed between your main and Nick attack? They are being merged. You are attacking twice as part of an attack during an attack action.
Yes, you can equip and unequip one weapon (two if you have the Dual Wielder feat) when you make the Nick attack as part of the [actions]Attack[/actions] action.
One more question. If you drop a weapon, what prevents someone from picking it up and using it. Throwing it? If they're not attacking, then a Fighter with an 18 STR should be able to throw a Great axe 10 feet? Take an attack of opportunity to run and pick up your axe.
Nothing is preventing another creature from picking up a dropped weapon, but it also costs the same to sheath a weapon as it does to drop it and the same is true for drawing a weapon versus picking it up.
A Thrown Greataxe is an Improvised Weapon. It is not a great option and most characters are not proficient.
Does the new PHB go into any more detail on weapon swapping then the 2014 did? It seems that there’s so many cases that a little detail would help. For example, sheathing a dagger and drawing a short sword would be way easier then sheathing/slinging a mace and shield and drawing a long bow but the current rules are pretty vague on exactly what the latter case would entail. My understanding of RAW for the dagger to sword would be that it’s an action to accomplish but for one hand & shield to something would be what, 2 actions?
It’s basically DM’s decision. But from my understanding most are banning sword and board (weapons/shield) juggling, because of the AC add of the board.
So with dual wielding feat could you theoretically, go into a fight with a hand crossbow and a longsword drawn, shoot with the handcrossbow, apply vex, then stow crossbow, then attack with longsword, apply vex, then draw dagger, attack with dagger using nick?
"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. [. . .] I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. [. . .] [R]ational people know that things act of themselves or not at all."
The conversion document is super clear. Every attack as part of the attack action gives you a free equip or unequip (whether that's draw or pick up off the ground, or sheath or drop on the ground), taken either before or after the attack. A nick attack is part of the attack action, so also gets the free equip or unequip.
Currently ambiguous: Whether a cleave attack (or other similar constructions), when triggered by an attack as part of the attack action, is itself part of the attack action or not. (I would say yes - it's not explicitly a different action, and it is happening during the attack action. But there's no good reason to prefer that interpretation over 'it's not part of any action' that I've seen some people argue for, besides personal preference).
Also unambiguous: you don't have to be holding both weapons for light/nick at the same time. Indeed, SAC said as much - the only requirement for the light weapon attack is that it's a different light weapon.
Please pardon my ignorance but what is this conversion document you are referring to? Also I heard that the devs have somewhat addressed 2024 dual wielding concerns in some sage advice or interviews or something. Does this sound familiar to you? Of course I'm not asking for anyone to scour the internet on behalf. Just figured I'd ask the beautiful hivemind if that was real because I can't even remember where I originally read it.
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"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. [. . .] I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. [. . .] [R]ational people know that things act of themselves or not at all."
-Gene Wolfe,Shadow of the Torturer
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That should read 5th level.
I misspoke. You attack with the greataxe, the draw your scimitar. (At the end of the cleave attack) You then attack with the scimitar storing it at the end of its attack and drawing your other Scimitar to complete the actions storing it at the end.
This works as two handed weapons only require two hands when attacking. So five attacks at level 5 not including action surge.
Does this ‘character’ have the Dual Wielder feat? And the fifth attack is from that?
Because this way there is still a problem with this, you wouldn’t be able to draw the Greataxe for the bonus action attack.
You would need four object interactions to draw and stow two light weapons, five if you want to then draw another weapon. The way you are doing it, you have three. Which is why I was saying that throwing a weapon could solve the issue… or Dual Wielder
You do need the dual wielder feat to get the 5th attack. But you don't need to worry about stowing the greataxe as you can just hold it in your free hand all combat.
Yes, you can draw OR stow a weapon as part of an attack, before or after you make it, but not both. So that example has to read like this to work
holding greataxe
attack greataxe + stow greataxe
holding nothing
draw scimitar1 + attack scimitar1
holding scimitar1
draw scimitar2 + attack scimitar2
holding scimitar1 and scimitar 2
If you try to start it by holding nothing, you get stuck on step 3:
holding nothing
draw greataxe + attack greataxe
holding greataxe
draw scimitar1 + attack scimitar1
holding scimitar1 and greataxe
can't draw another weapon as part of your next attack since your hands are full. If you stow a weapon your next attack has to be with a weapon you're already holding.
They previously mentioned that the the various two weapon, throwing weapon, and drawing/stowing rules ended up worded this way because they found it was the easiest way to make sure players with characters who are throwing various objects didn't end up in a surprising scenario where they suddenly can't make their second attack even though they just did it two turns in a row.
It went roughly like this:
Turn 1: 2 Throwing attacks (Start with 2 weapons. Action is Throw+Draw. Bonus is Throw. End with 1 weapon)
Turn 2: 2 Throwing attacks (Start with 1 weapon. Action is Throw+Draw. Bonus is Throw. End with 0 weapons)
Turn 3 and later: 1 Throwing attack (Start with 0 weapons. Action is Draw+Throw. Bonus is wasted. End with 0 weapons)
The key is you never stow the greataxe. You carry it in your hand or hold it in your free hand.
So attack one Greataxe,
Cleave attack draw Scimitar
Attack two Scimitar stow Scimitar
Light attack draw completely new Scimitar
Bonus action Scimitar
Next round.
Attack with Scimitar Stow Scimitar
Attack two make greataxe attack.
Cleave attack draw completely different Scimitar. Etc.
Cleave attack
Not sure what you mean but if you mean to draw a new scimitar and make one extra attack as a Bonus Action, you can't do so when making an attack as part of a Bonus Action; only as part of an Attack action.
Keep in mind Nick moves the Scimitar attack from the bonus action to the attack action and therefore you can draw/stow weapons with that attack.
Only the last attack happens on the bonus action and you wouldn't be able to draw/stow on it.
I read the rule as you only get one free draw/stow per turn. so you can cleave attack, DRAW scimitar...then you're done. You can't drop the scimitar, because you have no stow left. You can't draw because you have no draws left. You cannot draw for every swing you make.
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
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It says you can draw/stow a weapon when you make an attack during the attack action. So I am presuming clave happens as part of the attack action and not in a weird state outside the attack action. And Nick bumps one of the attacks to the attack action. You never need to anything. You just stow it.
I may need to look at the object interaction rules though.
Join us here! Equip or Unequip a weapon - once per attack or once per Attack [Action]?
In my opinion, the Cleave attack is NOT an Attack action attack:
This is a feature that is allowing a creature to make an attack and this feature does not explicitly say anything about the attack being part of an Attack action like the Nick property does, for example.
However, I believe that you can still repeat the sequence that you've been proposing in this thread if you also take advantage of your one object interaction from this other combat rule:
So, you get one interaction from your first Attack action attack (Greataxe), you get a second interaction from you second Attack action attack (via Extra Attack), and you get a third interaction from the Nick property attack. Your fourth interaction comes from the above "Interacting with Things" rule.
So, if you wanted to start out each turn wielding a Greataxe (and ending those turns wielding a Greataxe), you would have these interactions:
Draw Scimitar
Stow Scimitar
Draw Other Scimitar
Stow Other Scimitar
That's 4 interactions, allowing for a repeating cycle of 5 attacks for a Level 5 Fighter with this one Feat. Not too shabby.
Yeah I wouldn't argue that much that Cleave is part of the attack action or not. A maul with topple may be a better option anyway since if the opponent falls prone, you would get advantage on all the other attacks and potentially cause the rest of the party to get advantage as well.
It make sense to not say Cleave is not part of the Attack action so it can be used on an attack made as a Bonus Action or Reaction such as an Opportunity Attack.
It can be used whenever you can attack but only once per turn (so yes for opportunity attack).
But if you want to Stow your Greataxe again then you’ll want to use it during your action because then it is an attack during your action. I don’t really see any other way to interpret that
I think the Bonus Action is going to throw a wrench in the swap 'til you drop crowd's panties. The BA from Light Property and the BA from the Dual Wielder feat, unless you have the free object interaction free, is going to be a problem. FOI might not even save you. Swapping weapons using the Nick Mastery should be possible. Is equipping/unequipping going to be allowed between your main and Nick attack? They are being merged. You are attacking twice as part of an attack during an attack action. As stated, I think most DMs are going to put the kibosh on this whole thing. Keep in mind that a Fighter could get 8 attacks per turn over 2 rounds at level 20...
One more question. If you drop a weapon, what prevents someone from picking it up and using it. Throwing it? If they're not attacking, then a Fighter with an 18 STR should be able to throw a Great axe 10 feet? Take an attack of opportunity to run and pick up your axe.
We are all in danger!
Yes, you can equip and unequip one weapon (two if you have the Dual Wielder feat) when you make the Nick attack as part of the [actions]Attack[/actions] action.
Nothing is preventing another creature from picking up a dropped weapon, but it also costs the same to sheath a weapon as it does to drop it and the same is true for drawing a weapon versus picking it up.
A Thrown Greataxe is an Improvised Weapon. It is not a great option and most characters are not proficient.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
It’s basically DM’s decision. But from my understanding most are banning sword and board (weapons/shield) juggling, because of the AC add of the board.
So with dual wielding feat could you theoretically, go into a fight with a hand crossbow and a longsword drawn, shoot with the handcrossbow, apply vex, then stow crossbow, then attack with longsword, apply vex, then draw dagger, attack with dagger using nick?
"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. [. . .] I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. [. . .] [R]ational people know that things act of themselves or not at all."
-Gene Wolfe, Shadow of the Torturer
The conversion document is super clear. Every attack as part of the attack action gives you a free equip or unequip (whether that's draw or pick up off the ground, or sheath or drop on the ground), taken either before or after the attack. A nick attack is part of the attack action, so also gets the free equip or unequip.
Currently ambiguous: Whether a cleave attack (or other similar constructions), when triggered by an attack as part of the attack action, is itself part of the attack action or not. (I would say yes - it's not explicitly a different action, and it is happening during the attack action. But there's no good reason to prefer that interpretation over 'it's not part of any action' that I've seen some people argue for, besides personal preference).
Also unambiguous: you don't have to be holding both weapons for light/nick at the same time. Indeed, SAC said as much - the only requirement for the light weapon attack is that it's a different light weapon.
Please pardon my ignorance but what is this conversion document you are referring to? Also I heard that the devs have somewhat addressed 2024 dual wielding concerns in some sage advice or interviews or something. Does this sound familiar to you? Of course I'm not asking for anyone to scour the internet on behalf. Just figured I'd ask the beautiful hivemind if that was real because I can't even remember where I originally read it.
"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. [. . .] I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fact to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. [. . .] [R]ational people know that things act of themselves or not at all."
-Gene Wolfe, Shadow of the Torturer