We have historical examples of crossbow use by mounted knights during the crusades that were almost certainly cocked and loaded before they got in the saddle.
This is not a rule. D&D is not a simulation of the crusades.
The Ammunition rule relevantly states: "You can use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from it. The type of ammunition required is specified with the weapon's range. Each attack expends one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)." (Trimmed about recovering ammo).
So, you must have ammunition to fire it. The attack expends a piece of ammunition. Thus the weapon needs to be loaded at the moment you fire it. If it is already loaded, you would not need to load it, so wouldn't need the free hand. It never says you must draw ammunition nor that you must load it as part of the attack. There is certainly some time horizon over which you could pre-load it. And certainly you cannot fire it unless it is loaded. (Technically, you don't need the free hand to draw the ammunition, only to load it. So if you don't have the free hand, i guess RAW you draw it and then fail to reload. I'd just say you decline to draw ammunition in that case).
There is no allowance for preloading weapons with ammunition. Your argument is that you can do it because the rules don't say you can't. The rules don't say you can.
The rules do say you can draw the ammunition as part of the attack and part of the statement is that you must have a free hand to load it. The actual "natural language" reading is that you draw and load the ammunition each time you make an attack and there is no explicit allowance for preloading the ammunition. You draw the weapon, and it is unloaded.
Natural language: A pistol is a pistol. It can be carried loaded. The rules don't have to tell me that explicitly, the use of the word 'pistol' does. If it doesn't operate like a pistol, then its not a pistol. The rules also don't define exactly how you use a sword, but you still use a sword like its a sword.
The rules never command me to load the weapon before firing. They tell me i must spend ammo. Imply that it must be loaded when i fire it. That I draw ammo as part of the attack. And that I need a free hand to load it as part of that attack. But if I don't load it right then, I don't need the free hand, because I'm not loading it. (It doesn't say you need a free hand to operate or fire it, just that you need a free hand to load it).
(Technically, the rules never explicitly tell you it has to be loaded to fire it. They merely imply it. Natural language kicks in, and we understand pistols fire bullets and crossbows fire bolts, which must be properly loaded to be fired.)
Any DM telling me I couldn't preload a pistol is a DM I don't want to play with.
And yes, the game is a (very rough and loose) simulation. The purpose of the rules is to avoid the Cops 'n Robbers "I shot you", "No you didn't" problem. It still assumes you know what pistols, swords, shields, and etc... are and vaguely how they operate.
We have historical examples of crossbow use by mounted knights during the crusades that were almost certainly cocked and loaded before they got in the saddle.
This is not a rule. D&D is not a simulation of the crusades.
The Ammunition rule relevantly states: "You can use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from it. The type of ammunition required is specified with the weapon's range. Each attack expends one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)." (Trimmed about recovering ammo).
So, you must have ammunition to fire it. The attack expends a piece of ammunition. Thus the weapon needs to be loaded at the moment you fire it. If it is already loaded, you would not need to load it, so wouldn't need the free hand. It never says you must draw ammunition nor that you must load it as part of the attack. There is certainly some time horizon over which you could pre-load it. And certainly you cannot fire it unless it is loaded. (Technically, you don't need the free hand to draw the ammunition, only to load it. So if you don't have the free hand, i guess RAW you draw it and then fail to reload. I'd just say you decline to draw ammunition in that case).
There is no allowance for preloading weapons with ammunition. Your argument is that you can do it because the rules don't say you can't. The rules don't say you can.
The rules do say you can draw the ammunition as part of the attack and part of the statement is that you must have a free hand to load it. The actual "natural language" reading is that you draw and load the ammunition each time you make an attack and there is no explicit allowance for preloading the ammunition. You draw the weapon, and it is unloaded.
Natural language: A pistol is a pistol. It can be carried loaded. The rules don't have to tell me that explicitly, the use of the word 'pistol' does. If it doesn't operate like a pistol, then its not a pistol. The rules also don't define exactly how you use a sword, but you still use a sword like its a sword.
The rules never command me to load the weapon before firing. They tell me i must spend ammo. Imply that it must be loaded when i fire it. That I draw ammo as part of the attack. And that I need a free hand to load it as part of that attack. But if I don't load it right then, I don't need the free hand, because I'm not loading it. (It doesn't say you need a free hand to operate or fire it, just that you need a free hand to load it).
(Technically, the rules never explicitly tell you it has to be loaded to fire it. They merely imply it. Natural language kicks in, and we understand pistols fire bullets and crossbows fire bolts, which must be properly loaded to be fired.)
Any DM telling me I couldn't preload a pistol is a DM I don't want to play with.
And yes, the game is a (very rough and loose) simulation. The purpose of the rules is to avoid the Cops 'n Robbers "I shot you", "No you didn't" problem. It still assumes you know what pistols, swords, shields, and etc... are and vaguely how they operate.
Strictly speaking the rules for pistols and crossbows are the same. They both have the ammunition property (which is what requires you to load the weapon as part of the attack action) and they both have the loading property.
Based on the rules, neither can be loaded before the attack action as the ammunition property requires you to load the weapon as part of the attack. You can't argue that Pistols are except from the rules but crossbows aren't. It makes sense both could be pre-loaded before combat starts, but that isn't in the rules.
Frankly, I think whether pistols can be preloaded or not isn't in the rules because the designers don't expect the rules to be stressed to the point of ridiculousness. At that point, they explicitly tell you to just go with what the DM tells you. That's not just for pistols. It's also with, say, sheets of paper providing you total cover from a Fireball.
Not sure how the conversation moved to "pistols" being pre-loaded, we were talking about crossbows. It is a lot easier to have a pre-loaded and un-held pistol than a pre-loaded but unheld crossbow. I don't think anyone would object to a pre-loaded pistol, a crossbow is a whole different matter.
Not sure how the conversation moved to "pistols" being pre-loaded, we were talking about crossbows. It is a lot easier to have a pre-loaded and un-held pistol than a pre-loaded but unheld crossbow. I don't think anyone would object to a pre-loaded pistol, a crossbow is a whole different matter.
I described historical handcrossbows earlier and how they could be loaded but not cocked, and cocked with a thumb lever one-handed. So pistols and hand crossbows are actually quite similar in this respect (although not in the exact details).
We have historical examples of crossbow use by mounted knights during the crusades that were almost certainly cocked and loaded before they got in the saddle.
This is not a rule. D&D is not a simulation of the crusades.
The Ammunition rule relevantly states: "You can use a weapon that has the Ammunition property to make a ranged attack only if you have ammunition to fire from it. The type of ammunition required is specified with the weapon's range. Each attack expends one piece of ammunition. Drawing the ammunition is part of the attack (you need a free hand to load a one-handed weapon)." (Trimmed about recovering ammo).
So, you must have ammunition to fire it. The attack expends a piece of ammunition. Thus the weapon needs to be loaded at the moment you fire it. If it is already loaded, you would not need to load it, so wouldn't need the free hand. It never says you must draw ammunition nor that you must load it as part of the attack. There is certainly some time horizon over which you could pre-load it. And certainly you cannot fire it unless it is loaded. (Technically, you don't need the free hand to draw the ammunition, only to load it. So if you don't have the free hand, i guess RAW you draw it and then fail to reload. I'd just say you decline to draw ammunition in that case).
There is no allowance for preloading weapons with ammunition. Your argument is that you can do it because the rules don't say you can't. The rules don't say you can.
The rules do say you can draw the ammunition as part of the attack and part of the statement is that you must have a free hand to load it. The actual "natural language" reading is that you draw and load the ammunition each time you make an attack and there is no explicit allowance for preloading the ammunition. You draw the weapon, and it is unloaded.
Natural language: A pistol is a pistol. It can be carried loaded. The rules don't have to tell me that explicitly, the use of the word 'pistol' does. If it doesn't operate like a pistol, then its not a pistol. The rules also don't define exactly how you use a sword, but you still use a sword like its a sword.
The rules never command me to load the weapon before firing. They tell me i must spend ammo. Imply that it must be loaded when i fire it. That I draw ammo as part of the attack. And that I need a free hand to load it as part of that attack. But if I don't load it right then, I don't need the free hand, because I'm not loading it. (It doesn't say you need a free hand to operate or fire it, just that you need a free hand to load it).
(Technically, the rules never explicitly tell you it has to be loaded to fire it. They merely imply it. Natural language kicks in, and we understand pistols fire bullets and crossbows fire bolts, which must be properly loaded to be fired.)
Any DM telling me I couldn't preload a pistol is a DM I don't want to play with.
And yes, the game is a (very rough and loose) simulation. The purpose of the rules is to avoid the Cops 'n Robbers "I shot you", "No you didn't" problem. It still assumes you know what pistols, swords, shields, and etc... are and vaguely how they operate.
Strictly speaking the rules for pistols and crossbows are the same. They both have the ammunition property (which is what requires you to load the weapon as part of the attack action) and they both have the loading property.
Based on the rules, neither can be loaded before the attack action as the ammunition property requires you to load the weapon as part of the attack. You can't argue that Pistols are except from the rules but crossbows aren't. It makes sense both could be pre-loaded before combat starts, but that isn't in the rules.
Strictly speaking, the rules never actually tell you the weapon needs to be loaded to fire it. It says you need a free hand to load it, but it never actually says it must be loaded to fire, nor that you must load it as part of the attack action. That sentence about loading it is literally the only time the word "load" comes up in the ammunition rule. The rule only actually requires that you have ammunition to fire it, not that said ammunition be loaded.
The only way you even get to needing to have ammunition loaded is a natural language understanding of what a hand crossbow or a pistol is, because the rules don't actually say that.
(I would note that I have nowhere disputed that a hand crossbow or a pistol requires a free hand to load, nor that you could do so during the attack. I've just disputed that said loading can only take place then, and that it must be done then, neither of which the rules say).
(Technically, the rules never explicitly tell you it has to be loaded to fire it. They merely imply it. Natural language kicks in, and we understand pistols fire bullets and crossbows fire bolts, which must be properly loaded to be fired.)
Yes, the natural language tells you that you have to load the ammunition after you draw the ammunition in order to fire it. Nothing ever says that you can have a preloaded and stowed pistol, a preloaded and stowed crossbow, or a preloaded and stowed bow.
Even if a modern crossbow or pistol can be stored loaded, it is extremely unsafe to do so. You risk injury to yourself and those around you. Earlier time periods were not known for the safety standards, but that is no excuse for advocating for unsafe practices. Always treat a firearm or crossbow as loaded and never load it before you intend to use it. In real life and in D&D.
(Technically, the rules never explicitly tell you it has to be loaded to fire it. They merely imply it. Natural language kicks in, and we understand pistols fire bullets and crossbows fire bolts, which must be properly loaded to be fired.)
Yes, the natural language tells you that you have to load the ammunition after you draw the ammunition in order to fire it. Nothing ever says that you can have a preloaded and stowed pistol, a preloaded and stowed crossbow, or a preloaded and stowed bow.
Even if a modern crossbow or pistol can be stored loaded, it is extremely unsafe to do so. You risk injury to yourself and those around you. Earlier time periods were not known for the safety standards, but that is no excuse for advocating for unsafe practices. Always treat a firearm or crossbow as loaded and never load it before you intend to use it. In real life and in D&D.
Be safe and load your weapon when you draw it.
I'm talking about historical Renaissance hand crossbows. Loaded and uncocked is perfectly safe, because it's not cocked and thus cannot fire (and it's not going to operate the thumb lever itself, the lever is pretty big, and if the hand crossbow is stowed, the lever will be immobilized by how its stowed).
When you say 'stowed', i think we're talking about different things. I'm primarily talking about carried in a position that it can be readily accessed for use, as in a holster or similar set-up, and carrying a flintlock pistol loaded was the norm. Note that you have to manually cock a flintlock pistol through two stages of cocking before it will fire. This is not going off accidentally while holstered. (There's a half-cock position for priming the pan, and a fully cocked position for firing it). Carrying your flintlock pistol already cocked would be stupid.
Yeah, when your primary use of a firearm is recreational, it makes sense to only load right before you fire. That describes a lot of civilian firearm use today. That does not describe historical usage at all. Adventurers are not recreational users of firearms. (And even today, there are flintlock enthusiasts who carry a flintlock for protection from wildlife while trekking out in the bush, and they definitely load before they start their trek, because if you need to defend yourself, you don't want to sit there fumbling with a powder pouch.)
Modern firearm users who are not recreational do not wait till they're about to fire to load either. A soldier loads his weapon the moment he's entering a combat zone. (The dungeon is a combat zone). A police officer loads his weapon when he goes on patrol (That is, inserts a magazine if an semiautomatic, or loads the chambers if a revolver. Modern practice is to chamber the round for a semiautomatic when they exit the vehicle for a call in many precincts. It is never when they are about to fire it). They don't wait till the last moment before they need their weapon. Similarly, historically weapons were loaded when the need to use it was anticipated or likely.
I'm advocating actual historical usage here, by characters who are proficient with the weapons and use them on a regular basis, and who put themselves in dangerous situations where they need to use them as weapons.
And natural language tells you the weapon must be loaded to fire it. It does not tell you that it must be loaded in the same 6 seconds in which you are pulling the trigger (and neither do the rules). Whether you loaded it seconds, minutes, or even hours earlier is immaterial in the case of pistols and (at least some) hand crossbows. It also tells you that it only takes one hand to fire a loaded pistol, and that not loading the (single shot) pistol immediately just means it cannot be fired again. Come on, even my young nephew understands this much.
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Aside from being backed by historical practice, there's also the fantasy of the weapon, at least in the pistol's case. Pirates of the Carribean, for example, is basically a D+D movie trilogy that exemplifies the pistol fantasy.
When Elizabeth draws on Beckett, she doesn't load the pistol. She does cock it every time she threatens to use it (and uncocks it when withdrawing the threat).
I dare you to find me a single depiction, historical, fictional, or cinematic, where someone draws a flintlock pistol with the intent to immediately use it and it isn't already loaded.
(Technically, the rules never explicitly tell you it has to be loaded to fire it. They merely imply it. Natural language kicks in, and we understand pistols fire bullets and crossbows fire bolts, which must be properly loaded to be fired.)
Yes, the natural language tells you that you have to load the ammunition after you draw the ammunition in order to fire it. Nothing ever says that you can have a preloaded and stowed pistol, a preloaded and stowed crossbow, or a preloaded and stowed bow.
Even if a modern crossbow or pistol can be stored loaded, it is extremely unsafe to do so. You risk injury to yourself and those around you. Earlier time periods were not known for the safety standards, but that is no excuse for advocating for unsafe practices. Always treat a firearm or crossbow as loaded and never load it before you intend to use it. In real life and in D&D.
Be safe and load your weapon when you draw it.
If we're hosting a game for teens, young adults, or children, I would absolutely emphasize rules that reinforce the idea that pistols and crossbows should not and cannot be stored while loaded. This is for educational purposes. We don't want to teach people wrong practices. I'm with you on that 100%. While children, teens, and young adults do have the ability to differentiate fantasy from reality, ideas like that have a way of migrating from one sphere to another and we wouldn't want to be contributing to that going on.
For adults? I'm inclined to be a lot more lenient. It's D&D, man. If the DM says the rate of accidental shootings in their world is 0%, then that's what it is.
This is similar to the rule for knocking people out in D&D. In D&D, with a melee attack, this is absolutely 100% safe and no one dies from being knocked out unless it was intended to be a lethal blow by the attacker. That's fantasy, of course. IRL, hitting someone hard enough to knock them out is quite a serious injury, and that's why all boxers who have been knocked out require a mandatory examination by a qualified medical professional afterwards. IRL, people getting knocked out is so rare that it doesn't really make sense to gate this particular fantasy.
On that note, most countries also don't have a problem with people gunning down children so unless you're in a country where that's a problem, it's probably okay.
(Technically, the rules never explicitly tell you it has to be loaded to fire it. They merely imply it. Natural language kicks in, and we understand pistols fire bullets and crossbows fire bolts, which must be properly loaded to be fired.)
Yes, the natural language tells you that you have to load the ammunition after you draw the ammunition in order to fire it. Nothing ever says that you can have a preloaded and stowed pistol, a preloaded and stowed crossbow, or a preloaded and stowed bow.
Even if a modern crossbow or pistol can be stored loaded, it is extremely unsafe to do so. You risk injury to yourself and those around you. Earlier time periods were not known for the safety standards, but that is no excuse for advocating for unsafe practices. Always treat a firearm or crossbow as loaded and never load it before you intend to use it. In real life and in D&D.
Be safe and load your weapon when you draw it.
If we're hosting a game for teens, young adults, or children, I would absolutely emphasize rules that reinforce the idea that pistols and crossbows should not and cannot be stored while loaded. This is for educational purposes. We don't want to teach people wrong practices. I'm with you on that 100%. While children, teens, and young adults do have the ability to differentiate fantasy from reality, ideas like that have a way of migrating from one sphere to another and we wouldn't want to be contributing to that going on.
For adults? I'm inclined to be a lot more lenient. It's D&D, man. If the DM says the rate of accidental shootings in their world is 0%, then that's what it is.
This is similar to the rule for knocking people out in D&D. In D&D, with a melee attack, this is absolutely 100% safe and no one dies from being knocked out unless it was intended to be a lethal blow by the attacker. That's fantasy, of course. IRL, hitting someone hard enough to knock them out is quite a serious injury, and that's why all boxers who have been knocked out require a mandatory examination by a qualified medical professional afterwards. IRL, people getting knocked out is so rare that it doesn't really make sense to gate this particular fantasy.
On that note, most countries also don't have a problem with people gunning down children so unless you're in a country where that's a problem, it's probably okay.
We're playing a game of murderhobos killing and stealing their way to glory, and modern firearm safety is the thing you're worried about?
We also don't sharpen or properly care for swords, axes, and etc... in D+D either. Nor worry about pointing them at creatures the players are threatening. Should we be worried about children not understanding the proper care and safety procedures for bladed weapons?
You do understand children play games where they point toy guns at each other, right? Even if those toy guns are just sticks?
I have zero worries about players of any age treating anything they learn playing D+D as how you'd do things in real life. This is 'video games cause violence' levels of bs. (spoiler: they don't).
We're playing a game of murderhobos killing and stealing their way to glory, and modern firearm safety is the thing you're worried about?
We also don't sharpen or properly care for swords, axes, and etc... in D+D either. Nor worry about pointing them at creatures the players are threatening. Should we be worried about children not understanding the proper care and safety procedures for bladed weapons?
You do understand children play games where they point toy guns at each other, right? Even if those toy guns are just sticks?
I have zero worries about players of any age treating anything they learn playing D+D as how you'd do things in real life. This is 'video games cause violence' levels of bs. (spoiler: they don't).
Many of us have left muderhoboing behind decades ago. We're not talk about firearms with clips and safeties. We're talking muzzle-loaded flintlocks in most cases. Flintlocks and crossbows absolutely run the risk of misfiring if you are running around with loaded weapons. You want the game to model foolish behavior as a default. I am saying that the rules model safe and practical behavior. There is no basis in the rules for flailing about with "one in the chamber". It's not RAW, it is likely not RAI. It would be possible in real life but would be dangerous and I would rather have the simplicity of disallowing it than have rules for shooting yourself or a party member in the foot because you rolled a 1 on an Acrobatics check with a loaded crossbow strapped to your back.
This isn't the Murderhobo Fantasy forum. This is the Rules and Game Mechanics forum. Here, your Murderhoboing needs a published rules basis and not just "but the movies say I can".
If we're hosting a game for teens, young adults, or children, I would absolutely emphasize rules that reinforce the idea that pistols and crossbows should not and cannot be stored while loaded. This is for educational purposes. We don't want to teach people wrong practices. I'm with you on that 100%. While children, teens, and young adults do have the ability to differentiate fantasy from reality, ideas like that have a way of migrating from one sphere to another and we wouldn't want to be contributing to that going on.
For adults? I'm inclined to be a lot more lenient. It's D&D, man. If the DM says the rate of accidental shootings in their world is 0%, then that's what it is.
This is similar to the rule for knocking people out in D&D. In D&D, with a melee attack, this is absolutely 100% safe and no one dies from being knocked out unless it was intended to be a lethal blow by the attacker. That's fantasy, of course. IRL, hitting someone hard enough to knock them out is quite a serious injury, and that's why all boxers who have been knocked out require a mandatory examination by a qualified medical professional afterwards. IRL, people getting knocked out is so rare that it doesn't really make sense to gate this particular fantasy.
On that note, most countries also don't have a problem with people gunning down children so unless you're in a country where that's a problem, it's probably okay.
We're playing a game of murderhobos killing and stealing their way to glory, and modern firearm safety is the thing you're worried about?
We also don't sharpen or properly care for swords, axes, and etc... in D+D either. Nor worry about pointing them at creatures the players are threatening. Should we be worried about children not understanding the proper care and safety procedures for bladed weapons?
You do understand children play games where they point toy guns at each other, right? Even if those toy guns are just sticks?
I have zero worries about players of any age treating anything they learn playing D+D as how you'd do things in real life. This is 'video games cause violence' levels of bs. (spoiler: they don't).
Dude, get a grip. I'm on your side. I'm just saying I can see where people can rule the game how they want at their tables not to have loaded firearms at the ready, for the sake of teaching children safe protocols.
Guess what?
People can rule the game however the F they want at their tables, for whatever purpose! Amazing, right?
So I am also of the belief that EVEN THOUGH IT'S AGAINST RAW, you are perfectly free to rule that preloading guns and crossbows are a thing AT YOUR TABLE, because it just makes sense that that would be the case. Do what you want. It's good. I'm not just saying that as a general rule, either. I agree that the fantasy of guns and even crossbows is that people always keep them preloaded. Whether or not that's realistic is beside the point.
For the sake of clarity, working ONLY from the ruleset, without any other knowledge of what crossbows or pistols are or what they represent in fantasy or IRL, there isn't anything that says that you can preload the weapons. Since the rules don't say it, you can't do it. That's the nature of a ruleset. As a further example of this realm of DM fiat, you can take swords and handaxes. Can you use a sword to hack off the branches of a tree to help you build a shelter? Maybe. It depends on the sword. You'll usually ruin it with specific types of swords. Who's to say? The DM. For handaxes, you usually can. Who's to say? the DM. It'll be different at each table. Like it should be.
Natural language: A pistol is a pistol. It can be carried loaded. The rules don't have to tell me that explicitly, the use of the word 'pistol' does. If it doesn't operate like a pistol, then its not a pistol. The rules also don't define exactly how you use a sword, but you still use a sword like its a sword.
The rules never command me to load the weapon before firing. They tell me i must spend ammo. Imply that it must be loaded when i fire it. That I draw ammo as part of the attack. And that I need a free hand to load it as part of that attack. But if I don't load it right then, I don't need the free hand, because I'm not loading it. (It doesn't say you need a free hand to operate or fire it, just that you need a free hand to load it).
(Technically, the rules never explicitly tell you it has to be loaded to fire it. They merely imply it. Natural language kicks in, and we understand pistols fire bullets and crossbows fire bolts, which must be properly loaded to be fired.)
Any DM telling me I couldn't preload a pistol is a DM I don't want to play with.
And yes, the game is a (very rough and loose) simulation. The purpose of the rules is to avoid the Cops 'n Robbers "I shot you", "No you didn't" problem. It still assumes you know what pistols, swords, shields, and etc... are and vaguely how they operate.
Strictly speaking the rules for pistols and crossbows are the same. They both have the ammunition property (which is what requires you to load the weapon as part of the attack action) and they both have the loading property.
Based on the rules, neither can be loaded before the attack action as the ammunition property requires you to load the weapon as part of the attack. You can't argue that Pistols are except from the rules but crossbows aren't. It makes sense both could be pre-loaded before combat starts, but that isn't in the rules.
Frankly, I think whether pistols can be preloaded or not isn't in the rules because the designers don't expect the rules to be stressed to the point of ridiculousness. At that point, they explicitly tell you to just go with what the DM tells you. That's not just for pistols. It's also with, say, sheets of paper providing you total cover from a Fireball.
Not sure how the conversation moved to "pistols" being pre-loaded, we were talking about crossbows. It is a lot easier to have a pre-loaded and un-held pistol than a pre-loaded but unheld crossbow. I don't think anyone would object to a pre-loaded pistol, a crossbow is a whole different matter.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (original Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
I described historical handcrossbows earlier and how they could be loaded but not cocked, and cocked with a thumb lever one-handed. So pistols and hand crossbows are actually quite similar in this respect (although not in the exact details).
Strictly speaking, the rules never actually tell you the weapon needs to be loaded to fire it. It says you need a free hand to load it, but it never actually says it must be loaded to fire, nor that you must load it as part of the attack action. That sentence about loading it is literally the only time the word "load" comes up in the ammunition rule. The rule only actually requires that you have ammunition to fire it, not that said ammunition be loaded.
The only way you even get to needing to have ammunition loaded is a natural language understanding of what a hand crossbow or a pistol is, because the rules don't actually say that.
(I would note that I have nowhere disputed that a hand crossbow or a pistol requires a free hand to load, nor that you could do so during the attack. I've just disputed that said loading can only take place then, and that it must be done then, neither of which the rules say).
Yes, the natural language tells you that you have to load the ammunition after you draw the ammunition in order to fire it. Nothing ever says that you can have a preloaded and stowed pistol, a preloaded and stowed crossbow, or a preloaded and stowed bow.
Even if a modern crossbow or pistol can be stored loaded, it is extremely unsafe to do so. You risk injury to yourself and those around you. Earlier time periods were not known for the safety standards, but that is no excuse for advocating for unsafe practices. Always treat a firearm or crossbow as loaded and never load it before you intend to use it. In real life and in D&D.
Be safe and load your weapon when you draw it.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I'm talking about historical Renaissance hand crossbows. Loaded and uncocked is perfectly safe, because it's not cocked and thus cannot fire (and it's not going to operate the thumb lever itself, the lever is pretty big, and if the hand crossbow is stowed, the lever will be immobilized by how its stowed).
When you say 'stowed', i think we're talking about different things. I'm primarily talking about carried in a position that it can be readily accessed for use, as in a holster or similar set-up, and carrying a flintlock pistol loaded was the norm. Note that you have to manually cock a flintlock pistol through two stages of cocking before it will fire. This is not going off accidentally while holstered. (There's a half-cock position for priming the pan, and a fully cocked position for firing it). Carrying your flintlock pistol already cocked would be stupid.
Yeah, when your primary use of a firearm is recreational, it makes sense to only load right before you fire. That describes a lot of civilian firearm use today. That does not describe historical usage at all. Adventurers are not recreational users of firearms. (And even today, there are flintlock enthusiasts who carry a flintlock for protection from wildlife while trekking out in the bush, and they definitely load before they start their trek, because if you need to defend yourself, you don't want to sit there fumbling with a powder pouch.)
Modern firearm users who are not recreational do not wait till they're about to fire to load either. A soldier loads his weapon the moment he's entering a combat zone. (The dungeon is a combat zone). A police officer loads his weapon when he goes on patrol (That is, inserts a magazine if an semiautomatic, or loads the chambers if a revolver. Modern practice is to chamber the round for a semiautomatic when they exit the vehicle for a call in many precincts. It is never when they are about to fire it). They don't wait till the last moment before they need their weapon. Similarly, historically weapons were loaded when the need to use it was anticipated or likely.
I'm advocating actual historical usage here, by characters who are proficient with the weapons and use them on a regular basis, and who put themselves in dangerous situations where they need to use them as weapons.
And natural language tells you the weapon must be loaded to fire it. It does not tell you that it must be loaded in the same 6 seconds in which you are pulling the trigger (and neither do the rules). Whether you loaded it seconds, minutes, or even hours earlier is immaterial in the case of pistols and (at least some) hand crossbows. It also tells you that it only takes one hand to fire a loaded pistol, and that not loading the (single shot) pistol immediately just means it cannot be fired again. Come on, even my young nephew understands this much.
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Aside from being backed by historical practice, there's also the fantasy of the weapon, at least in the pistol's case. Pirates of the Carribean, for example, is basically a D+D movie trilogy that exemplifies the pistol fantasy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9o0QE93T5Nk
Everyone is already loaded. (The powder is wet, but they all draw two pistols and ultimately try to fire them without loading them).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T29IfdVX7pY
When Elizabeth draws on Beckett, she doesn't load the pistol. She does cock it every time she threatens to use it (and uncocks it when withdrawing the threat).
I dare you to find me a single depiction, historical, fictional, or cinematic, where someone draws a flintlock pistol with the intent to immediately use it and it isn't already loaded.
If we're hosting a game for teens, young adults, or children, I would absolutely emphasize rules that reinforce the idea that pistols and crossbows should not and cannot be stored while loaded. This is for educational purposes. We don't want to teach people wrong practices. I'm with you on that 100%. While children, teens, and young adults do have the ability to differentiate fantasy from reality, ideas like that have a way of migrating from one sphere to another and we wouldn't want to be contributing to that going on.
For adults? I'm inclined to be a lot more lenient. It's D&D, man. If the DM says the rate of accidental shootings in their world is 0%, then that's what it is.
This is similar to the rule for knocking people out in D&D. In D&D, with a melee attack, this is absolutely 100% safe and no one dies from being knocked out unless it was intended to be a lethal blow by the attacker. That's fantasy, of course. IRL, hitting someone hard enough to knock them out is quite a serious injury, and that's why all boxers who have been knocked out require a mandatory examination by a qualified medical professional afterwards. IRL, people getting knocked out is so rare that it doesn't really make sense to gate this particular fantasy.
On that note, most countries also don't have a problem with people gunning down children so unless you're in a country where that's a problem, it's probably okay.
We're playing a game of murderhobos killing and stealing their way to glory, and modern firearm safety is the thing you're worried about?
We also don't sharpen or properly care for swords, axes, and etc... in D+D either. Nor worry about pointing them at creatures the players are threatening. Should we be worried about children not understanding the proper care and safety procedures for bladed weapons?
You do understand children play games where they point toy guns at each other, right? Even if those toy guns are just sticks?
I have zero worries about players of any age treating anything they learn playing D+D as how you'd do things in real life. This is 'video games cause violence' levels of bs. (spoiler: they don't).
Many of us have left muderhoboing behind decades ago. We're not talk about firearms with clips and safeties. We're talking muzzle-loaded flintlocks in most cases. Flintlocks and crossbows absolutely run the risk of misfiring if you are running around with loaded weapons. You want the game to model foolish behavior as a default. I am saying that the rules model safe and practical behavior. There is no basis in the rules for flailing about with "one in the chamber". It's not RAW, it is likely not RAI. It would be possible in real life but would be dangerous and I would rather have the simplicity of disallowing it than have rules for shooting yourself or a party member in the foot because you rolled a 1 on an Acrobatics check with a loaded crossbow strapped to your back.
This isn't the Murderhobo Fantasy forum. This is the Rules and Game Mechanics forum. Here, your Murderhoboing needs a published rules basis and not just "but the movies say I can".
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Dude, get a grip. I'm on your side. I'm just saying I can see where people can rule the game how they want at their tables not to have loaded firearms at the ready, for the sake of teaching children safe protocols.
Guess what?
People can rule the game however the F they want at their tables, for whatever purpose! Amazing, right?
So I am also of the belief that EVEN THOUGH IT'S AGAINST RAW, you are perfectly free to rule that preloading guns and crossbows are a thing AT YOUR TABLE, because it just makes sense that that would be the case. Do what you want. It's good. I'm not just saying that as a general rule, either. I agree that the fantasy of guns and even crossbows is that people always keep them preloaded. Whether or not that's realistic is beside the point.
For the sake of clarity, working ONLY from the ruleset, without any other knowledge of what crossbows or pistols are or what they represent in fantasy or IRL, there isn't anything that says that you can preload the weapons. Since the rules don't say it, you can't do it. That's the nature of a ruleset. As a further example of this realm of DM fiat, you can take swords and handaxes. Can you use a sword to hack off the branches of a tree to help you build a shelter? Maybe. It depends on the sword. You'll usually ruin it with specific types of swords. Who's to say? The DM. For handaxes, you usually can. Who's to say? the DM. It'll be different at each table. Like it should be.