In the session just a few hours ago, I had a thought that hadn't occurred to me with my newly level 6 first play of an Astral Self monk.
In a darkness spell, I used 2 ki points and the same bonus action to summon both the Arms of Astral Self and the Visage of the Astral Self (first time summoning the Visage).
Arms say: "each creature of your choice that you can see within 10 feet of you" for that AoE when you summon the arms. Need to see to target enemies with it. Visage lets you see in magical darkness and is summoned as part of the same bonus action to summon the Arms.
So here I was in that darkness spell wondering if summoning the Visage and Arms at the same time lets me use the Visage to see in the magical darkness spell, for the purpose of being able to see the enemies for the Arms.
As they were summoned at the same time, the DM said they'd dig into it. But the ruling at the time was that I couldn't see the enemies to target them until after both Visage and Arms had been summoned - ie: too late to see to target while summoning the Arms.
I'm on the fence about it. But it seems like making an already somewhat weaker monk subclass even weaker. Thoughts? Can you see via the Visage to target enemies with the Arms AoE when summoned at the same time?
I don't know of any official rules for parsing simultaneous timing like this, I think it mostly gets relegated to "DM's call", as happened in your case.
Can you see via the Visage to target enemies with the Arms AoE when summoned at the same time?
Yes you can to me the choice of wording summon vs activate is specifically to allow you to see while the arms of astral self affect creatures. Visage of Astral Self can be used when you activate the Arms of the Astral Self feature. To resume chronology while in magical darkness;
When you take a bonus action, you can spend 1 ki point to activate Arms of the Astral Self and summon the arms of your astral self and can spend 1 ki point to summon the visage of your astral self, allowing you to see normally in the magical darkness.
When you you do so, each creature of your choice that you can see within 10 feet of you must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take force damage.
I think somewhere there was a rule or sage advice that "if two things happen simultaneously on a creature's turn that creature gets to choose which happens first". That seems like the easiest fair way to adjudicate things since it gives the same advantage to enemies as the party. But at the end of the day, it is the DMs game so they can rule it however they wish, it's a pretty rare/unusual case so I don't think it will make that big a difference in the grand scheme of things either way.
I think somewhere there was a rule or sage advice that "if two things happen simultaneously on a creature's turn that creature gets to choose which happens first". That seems like the easiest fair way to adjudicate things since it gives the same advantage to enemies as the party. But at the end of the day, it is the DMs game so they can rule it however they wish, it's a pretty rare/unusual case so I don't think it will make that big a difference in the grand scheme of things either way.
Perhaps you're referring to this text from Xanathar's Guide to Everything, page 77, found in the "Dungeon Master's Tools" section. I think it's also relevant to the original question:
Simultaneous Effects Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature's turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster's turn, the person at the game table-whether player or DM-who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character's turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
This is not going to be a popular opinion, but it belongs in this thread anyway.
There is an interpretation of the Darkness spell that it simply obscures the defined area. It specifically does not cause creatures within that area to be blinded. Depending on where you are located within that area of Darkness, there might be some creatures within 10 feet of you that are outside of this Darkness, and you would be able to see those creatures just fine when using the Arms Feature under this interpretation.
With that being said, if you are going to also use the Visage Feature, then you should definitely be able to see all of the creatures. It's obvious that these two Features were designed to work together in this way.
This is not going to be a popular opinion, but it belongs in this thread anyway.
There is an interpretation of the Darkness spell that it simply obscures the defined area. It specifically does not cause creatures within that area to be blinded. Depending on where you are located within that area of Darkness, there might be some creatures within 10 feet of you that are outside of this Darkness, and you would be able to see those creatures just fine when using the Arms Feature under this interpretation.
With that being said, if you are going to also use the Visage Feature, then you should definitely be able to see all of the creatures. It's obvious that these two Features were designed to work together in this way.
I would rule that you would be able to see in the magic darkness with the Visage and make the targets make the save. Think of it like your face getting covered in the Astral Visage and then the arms popping out and swinging in an arc. You gain the magical dark vision "while the visage is present", so I would rule you get it with enough time to throw your arms appropriately.
I think somewhere there was a rule or sage advice that "if two things happen simultaneously on a creature's turn that creature gets to choose which happens first". That seems like the easiest fair way to adjudicate things since it gives the same advantage to enemies as the party. But at the end of the day, it is the DMs game so they can rule it however they wish, it's a pretty rare/unusual case so I don't think it will make that big a difference in the grand scheme of things either way.
Perhaps you're referring to this text from Xanathar's Guide to Everything, page 77, found in the "Dungeon Master's Tools" section. I think it's also relevant to the original question:
Simultaneous Effects Most effects in the game happen in succession, following an order set by the rules or the DM. In rare cases, effects can happen at the same time, especially at the start or end of a creature's turn. If two or more things happen at the same time on a character or monster's turn, the person at the game table-whether player or DM-who controls that creature decides the order in which those things happen. For example, if two effects occur at the end of a player character's turn, the player decides which of the two effects happens first.
Thank you, this is pretty clear, it is RAW that the Visage can be summoned before the Arms for the purpose of what effect happens first. Awesome! DM agrees.
Thanks all!
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In the session just a few hours ago, I had a thought that hadn't occurred to me with my newly level 6 first play of an Astral Self monk.
In a darkness spell, I used 2 ki points and the same bonus action to summon both the Arms of Astral Self and the Visage of the Astral Self (first time summoning the Visage).
Arms say: "each creature of your choice that you can see within 10 feet of you" for that AoE when you summon the arms. Need to see to target enemies with it.
Visage lets you see in magical darkness and is summoned as part of the same bonus action to summon the Arms.
So here I was in that darkness spell wondering if summoning the Visage and Arms at the same time lets me use the Visage to see in the magical darkness spell, for the purpose of being able to see the enemies for the Arms.
As they were summoned at the same time, the DM said they'd dig into it. But the ruling at the time was that I couldn't see the enemies to target them until after both Visage and Arms had been summoned - ie: too late to see to target while summoning the Arms.
I'm on the fence about it. But it seems like making an already somewhat weaker monk subclass even weaker. Thoughts? Can you see via the Visage to target enemies with the Arms AoE when summoned at the same time?
I don't know of any official rules for parsing simultaneous timing like this, I think it mostly gets relegated to "DM's call", as happened in your case.
Yes you can to me the choice of wording summon vs activate is specifically to allow you to see while the arms of astral self affect creatures. Visage of Astral Self can be used when you activate the Arms of the Astral Self feature. To resume chronology while in magical darkness;
When you take a bonus action, you can spend 1 ki point to activate Arms of the Astral Self and summon the arms of your astral self and can spend 1 ki point to summon the visage of your astral self, allowing you to see normally in the magical darkness.
When you you do so, each creature of your choice that you can see within 10 feet of you must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or take force damage.
I think somewhere there was a rule or sage advice that "if two things happen simultaneously on a creature's turn that creature gets to choose which happens first". That seems like the easiest fair way to adjudicate things since it gives the same advantage to enemies as the party. But at the end of the day, it is the DMs game so they can rule it however they wish, it's a pretty rare/unusual case so I don't think it will make that big a difference in the grand scheme of things either way.
Perhaps you're referring to this text from Xanathar's Guide to Everything, page 77, found in the "Dungeon Master's Tools" section. I think it's also relevant to the original question:
This is not going to be a popular opinion, but it belongs in this thread anyway.
There is an interpretation of the Darkness spell that it simply obscures the defined area. It specifically does not cause creatures within that area to be blinded. Depending on where you are located within that area of Darkness, there might be some creatures within 10 feet of you that are outside of this Darkness, and you would be able to see those creatures just fine when using the Arms Feature under this interpretation.
With that being said, if you are going to also use the Visage Feature, then you should definitely be able to see all of the creatures. It's obvious that these two Features were designed to work together in this way.
Yep. A long discussion here If a Creature is Heavily Obscured, Do Advantage and Disadvantage on Attacks Cancel Out? about Darkness, heavily obscured area and vision.
I would rule that you would be able to see in the magic darkness with the Visage and make the targets make the save. Think of it like your face getting covered in the Astral Visage and then the arms popping out and swinging in an arc. You gain the magical dark vision "while the visage is present", so I would rule you get it with enough time to throw your arms appropriately.
Thank you, this is pretty clear, it is RAW that the Visage can be summoned before the Arms for the purpose of what effect happens first. Awesome! DM agrees.
Thanks all!