There's no such thing as Nick attack. Nick Mastery refers to the extra attack of the Light Property, wether made a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack Action instead.
In the video Jeremy Crawford and Todd Kenreck are wrong when saying you could to throw 3 Daggers because the extra attack of the Light property is limited to 1/turn one way or another.
1 Attack (Attack Action)
1 Extra Attack of the Light Property (Bonus Action or Attack Action)
You can't even do that one by adding Dual Wielder, because it requires a melee weapon.
Edit: I'm wrong. You can with DW, because daggers are melee weapons, even when they're thrown. The DW clause only excludes hand crossbows.
There's no such thing as Nick attack. Nick Mastery refers to the extra attack of the Light Property, wether made a Bonus Action or as part of the Attack Action instead.
In the video Jeremy Crawford and Todd Kenreck are wrong when saying you could to throw 3 Daggers because the extra attack of the Light property is limited to 1/turn one way or another.
1 Attack (Attack Action)
1 Extra Attack of the Light Property (Bonus Action or Attack Action)
In the video, attack with light weapon, nick mastery attack, bonus action attack. Three attacks, Kendrick catches the fact that Crawford said the bonus action is still available and questions if it can be made as a third attack and Crawford was excited to see it was addressed.
Three attacks, Throw daggerA, Throw daggerC( Nick Attack ), and bonus action Throw daggerB.
Like it was said ether here or in the other thread, the initial design intent was to probably give the Light property a bonus action attack for the Nick Mastery, and when Two-Weapon Fighting came up, it got moved into both the Light property and Dual Wielder Feat, with the Feat getting the “Enhanced Wielding” ability to allow nick to be available.
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
I don't think you followed that branch of the conversation. It was not a discussion of what the rules say, but how the underlying model derived from the rules behaves.
With a good model, one can answer most rules questions from first principles, rather than relying on the Apocrypha of Jeremy Crawford.
[ Note: The previous formatting is due to copy-paste from the other thread on Nick, and redirects wouldn’t exactly work for actual context.]
To answer this point on the Nick debate, the Apocryha of Crawford has been previously used to shove inaccurate and incorrect information and statements from Crawford with regards to 2014, and now because someone has used the reverse card, it’s Don’t you think Jeremy Crawford is wrong?
When people only look at this part of the Light property and the Nick Mastery they only see this:
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
And forget this:
That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
because when you just read Nick Mastery:
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
When you only look at only one half of the total Light property rule and the part that states you get an extra attack as a bonus action is the only thing that matters, then your attempting to rules lawyer half the case. The second half of the Light property tells people how that extra bonus attack must be made, with a different weapon that has the Light Property. Dual Weilder Feat only changes the different weapon provision by allowing the weapon to be anything other than a weapon that requires two hands to use.
If your a character that doesn’t have weapon mastery, you can still use a Light property weapon to attack, but that extra attack bonus action of the Light property can only be made or used if 1) you haven’t used your Bonus action before, and 2) you have an weapon in your offhand.
So a non mastery character can still use Dual Weapon Fighting and make two melee weapon attacks. Using Weapon Mastery Nick the character gains a third attack, the last line of Nick references the Nick attack and states it( the Nick extra attack ) can only be used once per turn which by ether Light property or DWF is made with the offhand weapon.
So Crawford wasn’t incorrect or wrong, but the extra attack as a bonus action is provisional.
By simply ignoring the second half of the Light property, you are advocating that because using a Light weapon gives you an extra bonus action that doesn’t require you to make an attack, you are effectively attempting to circumvent the specific general rule of only one bonus action per turn.
A slick player will use that to farm infinite bonus actions to do all sorts of non-RAW shenanigans, and that should be a Red flag for anyone.
If you use your bonus action before using the Light weapon property, you effectively shut any other bonus actions out of usage, as the general rule still applies.
Nick’s first line states that “When” [ in English writing thats known as an adjective verb ], meaning it changes the action of a thing, and the only thing it changes is the timing of a specific action. It does not remove the action, it only means that when using Nick an additional action is taken that utilizes the fact that the ability to take the aforementioned bonus action of the Light Property is available. If you can’t take a bonus action to make the Light property extra attack, then using Nick can not move an action that can not be made.
Nick never removes the extra attack as a bonus action of the Light property, it just gives you an extra attack if you “can make” an extra attack as a bonus action when using a Light property weapon.
Question, what about Jeremy Crawfords missing part of the official Video is a mistake? Is the company attempting to avoid having to make another SAC, or is it that certain individuals would find that admission and the potential rules juggling at odds with each other?
[ Btw, they are moving Threads around, and it affects post, so yea … ]
"Discount. Whenever you buy a nonmagical item, you receive a 20 percent discount on it." - from crafter. Assuming I found the correct text, does that mean you must have enough money to pay the full price of the item in order to buy it? There are many ramifications that come from your interpretation of the rules.
The topic is talking about the Nick weapon Mastery - not about Magic item purchases. yet you still try to derail the topic by attempting to justify unnecessary and meaningless examples that bear zero relevance to the actual discussion.
[ and to ensure the answer is given, if you can not cover the full price, you should not expect a Discount to be given. Just like if you can not take/make bonus actions, anything that depends on your ability to do something as a bonus action is not available to be taken/done. ]
By attempting to use just half the Light property to say every time a Light property weapon is used, an extra bonus action can be taken to attack or use some other bonus action is equal to “Farming for Bonus actions”.
You can not summon a weapon using your bonus action then expect to be able to use that weapon as the offhand weapon in making the Nick extra attack or as another bonus action, even if you used MetaMagic bonus action feature to summon a weapon. ( which means you are ether unfamiliar with the rules, or tying to circumvent the general rules for whatever reason. [ typically so as to gain advantage in a situation.] )
So ether stick to the topic at hand, or continue to derail the topic by avoiding answering the question I presented. ( which you have not answered, and are dodging. )
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
A slick player will use that to farm infinite bonus actions to do all sorts of non-RAW shenanigans, and that should be a Red flag for anyone.
gifs aren't allowed on this forum, but the one from Billy Madison seems very appropriate right about now
No one will "farm infinite bonus actions", whatever the heck that's even supposed to mean
Yet people will try by lawyering the rules in a way that is dishonest to the spirt of the game and rules.
When only half of a feature ( the first half of the Light property, that ends with a period, and many people stop there. ) is used to justify the reason, then why is it when the other half is brought up it’s:
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Use your bonus action for something else. Plenty of options out there. Presumably, if you're aiming for Nick Mastery you already have something in mind. Otherwise maybe pick a different Mastery.
This isn't that complex. Nick moves the attack from the BA to your regular-already-making attack action. So your BA is free.
Not for another attack though. Because it even says that pretty clearly. You can only make that extra attack once per turn. So use the freed up BA for something else.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
The only limitation comes when using Nick, which adds the stipulation that you can only use "this attack" once per turn. It makes no reference to any number of Light extra attacks, it refers only to the Nick attack.
Those are the same thing. "This attack" is referring directly to the attack from light weapon property.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Use your bonus action for something else. Plenty of options out there. Presumably, if you're aiming for Nick Mastery you already have something in mind. Otherwise maybe pick a different Mastery.
This isn't that complex. Nick moves the attack from the BA to your regular-already-making attack action. So your BA is free.
Not for another attack though. Because it even says that pretty clearly. You can only make that extra attack once per turn. So use the freed up BA for something else.
You can only use Nick to make an extra attack as an attack action instead of as a bonus action once per turn. That is Nick in a NutShell
I posted a revised version of Nick somewhere?( starts looking around IRL. )
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" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Yet people will try by lawyering the rules in a way that is dishonest to the spirt of the game and rules
That's the literal definition of a strawman. "Someone somewhere might try to abuse your interpretation of the rule in a way I can't even really articulate, therefore my interpretation must be the correct one"
How Nick works has been explained, quite clearly, multiple times in this thread already -- and in multiple other active threads, for that matter. There's really no reason for this thread to continue
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I don't think you followed that branch of the conversation. It was not a discussion of what the rules say, but how the underlying model derived from the rules behaves.
With a good model, one can answer most rules questions from first principles, rather than relying on the Apocrypha of Jeremy Crawford.
[ Note: The previous formatting is due to copy-paste from the other thread on Nick, and redirects wouldn’t exactly work for actual context.]
To answer this point on the Nick debate, the Apocryha of Crawford has been previously used to shove inaccurate and incorrect information and statements from Crawford with regards to 2014, and now because someone has used the reverse card, it’s Don’t you think Jeremy Crawford is wrong?
When people only look at this part of the Light property and the Nick Mastery they only see this:
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn.
And forget this:
That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative.
because when you just read Nick Mastery:
Nick
When you make the extra attack of the Light property, you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action. You can make this extra attack only once per turn.
When you only look at only one half of the total Light property rule and the part that states you get an extra attack as a bonus action is the only thing that matters, then your attempting to rules lawyer half the case. The second half of the Light property tells people how that extra bonus attack must be made, with a different weapon that has the Light Property. Dual Weilder Feat only changes the different weapon provision by allowing the weapon to be anything other than a weapon that requires two hands to use.
If your a character that doesn’t have weapon mastery, you can still use a Light property weapon to attack, but that extra attack bonus action of the Light property can only be made or used if 1) you haven’t used your Bonus action before, and 2) you have an weapon in your offhand.
So a non mastery character can still use Dual Weapon Fighting and make two melee weapon attacks. Using Weapon Mastery Nick the character gains a third attack, the last line of Nick references the Nick attack and states it( the Nick extra attack ) can only be used once per turn which by ether Light property or DWF is made with the offhand weapon.
So Crawford wasn’t incorrect or wrong, but the extra attack as a bonus action is provisional.
By simply ignoring the second half of the Light property, you are advocating that because using a Light weapon gives you an extra bonus action that doesn’t require you to make an attack, you are effectively attempting to circumvent the specific general rule of only one bonus action per turn.
A slick player will use that to farm infinite bonus actions to do all sorts of non-RAW shenanigans, and that should be a Red flag for anyone.
If you use your bonus action before using the Light weapon property, you effectively shut any other bonus actions out of usage, as the general rule still applies.
Nick’s first line states that “When” [ in English writing thats known as an adjective verb ], meaning it changes the action of a thing, and the only thing it changes is the timing of a specific action. It does not remove the action, it only means that when using Nick an additional action is taken that utilizes the fact that the ability to take the aforementioned bonus action of the Light Property is available. If you can’t take a bonus action to make the Light property extra attack, then using Nick can not move an action that can not be made.
Nick never removes the extra attack as a bonus action of the Light property, it just gives you an extra attack if you “can make” an extra attack as a bonus action when using a Light property weapon.
Question, what about Jeremy Crawfords missing part of the official Video is a mistake? Is the company attempting to avoid having to make another SAC, or is it that certain individuals would find that admission and the potential rules juggling at odds with each other?
[ Btw, they are moving Threads around, and it affects post, so yea … ]
"Discount. Whenever you buy a nonmagical item, you receive a 20 percent discount on it." - from crafter. Assuming I found the correct text, does that mean you must have enough money to pay the full price of the item in order to buy it? There are many ramifications that come from your interpretation of the rules.
The topic is talking about the Nick weapon Mastery - not about Magic item purchases. yet you still try to derail the topic by attempting to justify unnecessary and meaningless examples that bear zero relevance to the actual discussion.
[ and to ensure the answer is given, if you can not cover the full price, you should not expect a Discount to be given. Just like if you can not take/make bonus actions, anything that depends on your ability to do something as a bonus action is not available to be taken/done. ]
By attempting to use just half the Light property to say every time a Light property weapon is used, an extra bonus action can be taken to attack or use some other bonus action is equal to “Farming for Bonus actions”.
You can not summon a weapon using your bonus action then expect to be able to use that weapon as the offhand weapon in making the Nick extra attack or as another bonus action, even if you used MetaMagic bonus action feature to summon a weapon. ( which means you are ether unfamiliar with the rules, or tying to circumvent the general rules for whatever reason. [ typically so as to gain advantage in a situation.] )
So ether stick to the topic at hand, or continue to derail the topic by avoiding answering the question I presented. ( which you have not answered, and are dodging. )
It is not derailing to mention examples related to a debate. I believe that your point of view is absurd and am explaining why.
"Farming bonus actions" "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Literally nobody is claiming that the light property gives you extra bonus actions to use. What people are saying is that nick does not require a bonus action to use.
"You can not summon a weapon using your bonus action then expect to be able to use that weapon as the offhand weapon in making the Nick extra attack or as another bonus action, even if you used MetaMagic bonus action feature to summon a weapon." What "MetaMagic bonus action feature" allows you to summon a weapon?
If I missed the question you are referring to, please restate it.
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You can't even do that one by adding Dual Wielder, because it requires a melee weapon.
Edit: I'm wrong. You can with DW, because daggers are melee weapons, even when they're thrown. The DW clause only excludes hand crossbows.
In the video, attack with light weapon, nick mastery attack, bonus action attack.
Three attacks, Kendrick catches the fact that Crawford said the bonus action is still available and questions if it can be made as a third attack and Crawford was excited to see it was addressed.
Three attacks, Throw daggerA, Throw daggerC( Nick Attack ), and bonus action Throw daggerB.
Like it was said ether here or in the other thread, the initial design intent was to probably give the Light property a bonus action attack for the Nick Mastery, and when Two-Weapon Fighting came up, it got moved into both the Light property and Dual Wielder Feat, with the Feat getting the “Enhanced Wielding” ability to allow nick to be available.
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
The topic is talking about the Nick weapon Mastery - not about Magic item purchases. yet you still try to derail the topic by attempting to justify unnecessary and meaningless examples that bear zero relevance to the actual discussion.
[ and to ensure the answer is given, if you can not cover the full price, you should not expect a Discount to be given. Just like if you can not take/make bonus actions, anything that depends on your ability to do something as a bonus action is not available to be taken/done. ]
By attempting to use just half the Light property to say every time a Light property weapon is used, an extra bonus action can be taken to attack or use some other bonus action is equal to “Farming for Bonus actions”.
You can not summon a weapon using your bonus action then expect to be able to use that weapon as the offhand weapon in making the Nick extra attack or as another bonus action, even if you used MetaMagic bonus action feature to summon a weapon. ( which means you are ether unfamiliar with the rules, or tying to circumvent the general rules for whatever reason. [ typically so as to gain advantage in a situation.] )
So ether stick to the topic at hand, or continue to derail the topic by avoiding answering the question I presented. ( which you have not answered, and are dodging. )
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Yet people will try by lawyering the rules in a way that is dishonest to the spirt of the game and rules.
When only half of a feature ( the first half of the Light property, that ends with a period, and many people stop there. ) is used to justify the reason, then why is it when the other half is brought up it’s:
deny, deny(nicked), bonus action deny(Offhand comment).
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
Use your bonus action for something else. Plenty of options out there. Presumably, if you're aiming for Nick Mastery you already have something in mind. Otherwise maybe pick a different Mastery.
This isn't that complex. Nick moves the attack from the BA to your regular-already-making attack action. So your BA is free.
Not for another attack though. Because it even says that pretty clearly. You can only make that extra attack once per turn. So use the freed up BA for something else.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Okay.
Those are the same thing. "This attack" is referring directly to the attack from light weapon property.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You can only use Nick to make an extra attack as an attack action instead of as a bonus action once per turn. That is Nick in a NutShell
I posted a revised version of Nick somewhere?( starts looking around IRL. )
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
That's the literal definition of a strawman. "Someone somewhere might try to abuse your interpretation of the rule in a way I can't even really articulate, therefore my interpretation must be the correct one"
How Nick works has been explained, quite clearly, multiple times in this thread already -- and in multiple other active threads, for that matter. There's really no reason for this thread to continue
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
It is not derailing to mention examples related to a debate. I believe that your point of view is absurd and am explaining why.
"Farming bonus actions" "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Literally nobody is claiming that the light property gives you extra bonus actions to use. What people are saying is that nick does not require a bonus action to use.
"You can not summon a weapon using your bonus action then expect to be able to use that weapon as the offhand weapon in making the Nick extra attack or as another bonus action, even if you used MetaMagic bonus action feature to summon a weapon." What "MetaMagic bonus action feature" allows you to summon a weapon?
If I missed the question you are referring to, please restate it.