Still acclimating to the new book. Took me a solid 15 minutes to find the rule for how you actually take the grapple action (FYI, it's in the Rules Glossary under Unarmed Attack, not in the index).
Anyway, when you wildshape, your game statistics are replaced by the the Beast's "stat block."
Exceptions include: hp, HD, int/wis/cha scores, class features, languages, feats -- plus you keep your own skill and save proficiencies, and gain the beast's proficiencies (using the better of the two when there's overlap).
In Appendix B, it's called Creature Stat Blocks. Obviously, this is all subject to DM oversight, but it sure seems like if my Monk 1 - Druid 4 wildshapes into an Ape (CR 1/2), I get the ape's multiattack (two Fist attacks). It just occurred to me that those won't be officially actually be Unarmed Attacks, though. Interesting.
So I could technically use the ape's two fist attacks using my prof bonus but the ape's damage. I could then use a Bonus Action to do an unarmed strike (or flurry). Fun!
Anyway, just wondering if I'm skipping any other overarching rule as I'm looking at this.
As far as I can tell you should be able to do that. There might be some debate on whether or not claws and bites would qualify, but the giant ape should avoid those.
In Appendix B, it's called Creature Stat Blocks. Obviously, this is all subject to DM oversight, but it sure seems like if my Monk 1 - Druid 4 wildshapes into an Ape (CR 1/2), I get the ape's multiattack (two Fist attacks). It just occurred to me that those won't be officially actually be Unarmed Attacks, though. Interesting.
If nothing has changed in that regard, in 2024, natural weapons won’t be considered Unarmed Strikes or Monk weapons, just as in the 2014 rules. Do you know if this has changed? (EDIT: see this reply with an update about this question)
It’s also true that your Unarmed Strikes could replace natural attacks. If you choose to make an Unarmed Strike instead of using the Ape's Fist action, you should follow the Martial Arts rules. This means you should use your Proficiency Bonus and Martial Arts Die.
NOTE: I know this is debatable. A fist is a fist.
So I could technically use the ape's two fist attacks using my prof bonus but the ape's damage. I could then use a Bonus Action to do an unarmed strike (or flurry). Fun!
Anyway, just wondering if I'm skipping any other overarching rule as I'm looking at this.
Why your proficiency bonus? If you choose to make a Multiattack, you should use the Ape's Fist bonus (+5) and damage (1d4+3).
If nothing has changed in that regard, in 2024, natural weapons won’t be considered Unarmed Strikes or Monk weapons, just as in the 2014 rules. Do you know if this has changed?
I'm not sure it's changed. Natural Weapons weren't defined in the new PHB (as far as I could find). It's possible there might be guidance in the monster manual out next year (or at least a definition). I'd guess you could make a decent common sense argument to the DM for allowing it depending on your wildshape's anatomy. But that would be some shenanigans.
Why your proficiency bonus? If you choose to make a Multiattack, you should use the Ape's Fist bonus (+5) and damage (1d4+3).
Interestingly, when re-reading the rules to respond, I learned I was mistaken. I'd first thought you kept your proficiency bonus in wildshape. HOWEVER, you don't (at least not fully). "You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your proficiency bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature." So. Just for skills.
That seems like a downside. Even as a higher level druid, wildshaping into a lower-CR form means your hit chance goes down (because the lower-CR forms have lower proficiency bonuses).
If nothing has changed in that regard, in 2024, natural weapons won’t be considered Unarmed Strikes or Monk weapons, just as in the 2014 rules. Do you know if this has changed?
I'm not sure it's changed. Natural Weapons weren't defined in the new PHB (as far as I could find). It's possible there might be guidance in the monster manual out next year (or at least a definition). I'd guess you could make a decent common sense argument to the DM for allowing it depending on your wildshape's anatomy. But that would be some shenanigans.
Yeah, that's the thing. In 2014, we had this in the MM, p. 10 (emphasis mine):
Melee and Ranged Attacks The most common actions that a monster will take in combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be spell attacks or weapon attacks, where the "weapon" might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon, such as a claw or tail spike. For more information on different kinds of attacks, see the Player's Handbook.
Also, for now, we’ve got this answer in the Sage Advice Compendium:
Things designated as weapons by the rules, including natural weapons, are indeed weapons. In contrast, unarmed strikes are not weapons. They are something you do with an unarmed part of your body.
IMHO, if nothing changes in the DMG or MM, for now we should follow the same lead.
Why your proficiency bonus? If you choose to make a Multiattack, you should use the Ape's Fist bonus (+5) and damage (1d4+3).
Interestingly, when re-reading the rules to respond, I learned I was mistaken. I'd first thought you kept your proficiency bonus in wildshape. HOWEVER, you don't (at least not fully). "You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your proficiency bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature." So. Just for skills.
That seems like a downside. Even as a higher level druid, wildshaping into a lower-CR form means your hit chance goes down (because the lower-CR forms have lower proficiency bonuses).
Yes, skills and saving throws, the same as 2014 druids, then. But I'm understanding you get the skill and saving throw proficiencies Beast’s stat block only if they are better than yours: "If a skill or saving throw modifier in the Beast’s stat block is higher than yours, use the one in the stat block."
Game Statistics. Your game statistics are replaced by the Beast’s stat block, but you retain your creature type; Hit Points; Hit Point Dice; Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores; class features; languages; and feats. You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your Proficiency Bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature. If a skill or saving throw modifier in the Beast’s stat block is higher than yours, use the one in the stat block.
I just wanted to write again because, after joining the thread Are "natural weapons" still a thing in 2024?, I realized my previous messages might not have fully considered all the information in the 2024 PHB, especially regarding the relationship between Unarmed Strike, monster melee attacks and body parts discussed in that linked thread.
As I posted there, it's not completely clear to me whether what we knew as "natural weapons" in 2014 now count as Unarmed Strike in 2024.
But even so, I don't want to confuse people, so it's worth warning future visitors by providing all the info we have so far.
I just wanted to write again because, after joining the thread Are "natural weapons" still a thing in 2024?, I realized my previous messages might not have fully considered all the information in the 2024 PHB, especially regarding the relationship between Unarmed Strike, monster melee attacks and body parts discussed in that linked thread.
As I posted there, it's not completely clear to me whether what we knew as "natural weapons" in 2014 now count as Unarmed Strike in 2024.
But even so, I don't want to confuse people, so it's worth warning future visitors by providing all the info we have so far.
One interesting note, natural attacks aren't listed under attacks of opportunity in the new Player's Handbook, only weapons and unarmed strikes. I assume that means natural attacks are one of those two. Weapons are defined as the simple and martial weapons listed in the book so I would assume natural attacks now count as Unarmed Strikes. If they don't you can't make AoOs while Wild Shaped.
One interesting note, natural attacks aren't listed under attacks of opportunity in the new Player's Handbook, only weapons and unarmed strikes. I assume that means natural attacks are one of those two. Weapons are defined as the simple and martial weapons listed in the book so I would assume natural attacks now count as Unarmed Strikes. If they don't you can't make AoOs while Wild Shaped.
I believe under "Unarmed Strikes" it is specified that all creatures can make Unarmed Strikes regardless of their statblocks using dealing damage equal to your STR modifier. But the long and short of it is, Monk-Druid is incredibly broken if the beast's attacks are allowed to count as Unarmed Strikes and thus allowing the monk to make 2 such attacks as a BA with Flurry of Blows as many beasts make a single attack with damage comparable to a Multiattack. So regardless of RAW, the only fair ruling at the table is to only allow a Monk-Druid to make their Monk-BA attacks using their Monk unarmed strikes.
Interestingly, when re-reading the rules to respond, I learned I was mistaken. I'd first thought you kept your proficiency bonus in wildshape. HOWEVER, you don't (at least not fully). "You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your proficiency bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature." So. Just for skills.
That seems like a downside. Even as a higher level druid, wildshaping into a lower-CR form means your hit chance goes down (because the lower-CR forms have lower proficiency bonuses).
Agreed on the prof bonus. We will have to see when the monster manual comes out but I think not allowing you to use your druid prof bons for attacks may narrow the range of creatures you can use down to a tiny sliver. The known form limit may be pointless as you will only need like 2, here is my form, and oh here is my flying form.
Agreed on the prof bonus. We will have to see when the monster manual comes out but I think not allowing you to use your druid prof bons for attacks may narrow the range of creatures you can use down to a tiny sliver. The known form limit may be pointless as you will only need like 2, here is my form, and oh here is my flying form.
For non-Moon druids WS was never combat-viable in 2014, and remains not combat-viable in 2024. But that doesn't make it a bad feature, it is an incredible exploration / problem-solving tool. For Moon Druid in 2014 you have almost no viable Beast choices for level 9 and higher (CR 3+), either you swapped to using Elemental Forms or just use WS for mobility and deal damage using concentration spells and essentially never use the beast's attacks. I don't expect this to change in 2024 except that Elemental Forms are gone now.
Agreed on the prof bonus. We will have to see when the monster manual comes out but I think not allowing you to use your druid prof bons for attacks may narrow the range of creatures you can use down to a tiny sliver. The known form limit may be pointless as you will only need like 2, here is my form, and oh here is my flying form.
For non-Moon druids WS was never combat-viable in 2014, and remains not combat-viable in 2024. But that doesn't make it a bad feature, it is an incredible exploration / problem-solving tool. For Moon Druid in 2014 you have almost no viable Beast choices for level 9 and higher (CR 3+), either you swapped to using Elemental Forms or just use WS for mobility and deal damage using concentration spells and essentially never use the beast's attacks. I don't expect this to change in 2024 except that Elemental Forms are gone now.
I'm mainly talking moon druid. You need one maybe 2 exploration forms, flight and maybe like a tiny burrower. But for combat you'd want some variety as a moon druid. So you aren't just X for 3 levels. How good you can hit does not matter for non moon druids.
I disagree, there are lots of exploration forms you want, but at any given level there's only 1-2 viable combat forms. At CR1 it's Brown Bear, Dire Wolf (maybe Giant Spider/Giant Octopus/Giant Vulture), a CR 2 it is Polar Bear or Giant Constrictor Snake (maybe Allosaurus), at CR 3 there is Ankylosurus or Bristled Moorbounder(maybe Giant Scorpion), CR 4 there is Elephant or Stegosaurus I guess?, CR 5 is Giant Crocodile
Still acclimating to the new book. Took me a solid 15 minutes to find the rule for how you actually take the grapple action (FYI, it's in the Rules Glossary under Unarmed Attack, not in the index).
Anyway, when you wildshape, your game statistics are replaced by the the Beast's "stat block."
Exceptions include: hp, HD, int/wis/cha scores, class features, languages, feats -- plus you keep your own skill and save proficiencies, and gain the beast's proficiencies (using the better of the two when there's overlap).
In Appendix B, it's called Creature Stat Blocks. Obviously, this is all subject to DM oversight, but it sure seems like if my Monk 1 - Druid 4 wildshapes into an Ape (CR 1/2), I get the ape's multiattack (two Fist attacks). It just occurred to me that those won't be officially actually be Unarmed Attacks, though. Interesting.
So I could technically use the ape's two fist attacks using my prof bonus but the ape's damage. I could then use a Bonus Action to do an unarmed strike (or flurry). Fun!
Anyway, just wondering if I'm skipping any other overarching rule as I'm looking at this.
A related topic Extra Attack vs. Multiattack
- What do you do if you go to e.g. Monk 5 and gain Extra attack?
The Extra attack stems from class features and thus carries over to Wild Shape, and being Moon Druid you have access to forms with Multiattack - I haven't found any clarification on this interaction in the 2024....
- What do you do if you go to e.g. Monk 5 and gain Extra attack?
The Extra attack stems from class features and thus carries over to Wild Shape, and being Moon Druid you have access to forms with Multiattack - I haven't found any clarification on this interaction in the 2024....
I'd say that if you prefer to use your Monk's Extra Attack, you should choose the appropriate attack from the creature and attack twice. For instance, Bite in the case of a Wolf.
The Extra attack stems from class features and thus carries over to Wild Shape, and being Moon Druid you have access to forms with Multiattack - I haven't found any clarification on this interaction in the 2024....
The clarification is no different from the 2014 rules. The Attack Action is an action and Multiattack is an action, you pick which one you want to do on your turn. Extra Attack is a class feature that modifies your Attack Action and thus it has no impact if you choose to use Multiattack.
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Still acclimating to the new book. Took me a solid 15 minutes to find the rule for how you actually take the grapple action (FYI, it's in the Rules Glossary under Unarmed Attack, not in the index).
Anyway, when you wildshape, your game statistics are replaced by the the Beast's "stat block."
Exceptions include: hp, HD, int/wis/cha scores, class features, languages, feats -- plus you keep your own skill and save proficiencies, and gain the beast's proficiencies (using the better of the two when there's overlap).
In Appendix B, it's called Creature Stat Blocks. Obviously, this is all subject to DM oversight, but it sure seems like if my Monk 1 - Druid 4 wildshapes into an Ape (CR 1/2), I get the ape's multiattack (two Fist attacks). It just occurred to me that those won't be officially actually be Unarmed Attacks, though. Interesting.
So I could technically use the ape's two fist attacks using my prof bonus but the ape's damage. I could then use a Bonus Action to do an unarmed strike (or flurry). Fun!
Anyway, just wondering if I'm skipping any other overarching rule as I'm looking at this.
As far as I can tell you should be able to do that. There might be some debate on whether or not claws and bites would qualify, but the giant ape should avoid those.
If nothing has changed in that regard, in 2024, natural weapons won’t be considered Unarmed Strikes or Monk weapons, just as in the 2014 rules. Do you know if this has changed? (EDIT: see this reply with an update about this question)
It’s also true that your Unarmed Strikes could replace natural attacks. If you choose to make an Unarmed Strike instead of using the Ape's Fist action, you should follow the Martial Arts rules. This means you should use your Proficiency Bonus and Martial Arts Die.
NOTE: I know this is debatable. A fist is a fist.
Why your proficiency bonus? If you choose to make a Multiattack, you should use the Ape's Fist bonus (+5) and damage (1d4+3).
Id need to recheck the specifics but I think there are major changes to how wildshape works now
I'm not sure it's changed. Natural Weapons weren't defined in the new PHB (as far as I could find). It's possible there might be guidance in the monster manual out next year (or at least a definition). I'd guess you could make a decent common sense argument to the DM for allowing it depending on your wildshape's anatomy. But that would be some shenanigans.
Interestingly, when re-reading the rules to respond, I learned I was mistaken. I'd first thought you kept your proficiency bonus in wildshape. HOWEVER, you don't (at least not fully). "You also retain your skill and saving throw proficiencies and use your proficiency bonus for them, in addition to gaining the proficiencies of the creature." So. Just for skills.
That seems like a downside. Even as a higher level druid, wildshaping into a lower-CR form means your hit chance goes down (because the lower-CR forms have lower proficiency bonuses).
Yeah, that's the thing. In 2014, we had this in the MM, p. 10 (emphasis mine):
Also, for now, we’ve got this answer in the Sage Advice Compendium:
IMHO, if nothing changes in the DMG or MM, for now we should follow the same lead.
Yes, skills and saving throws, the same as 2014 druids, then. But I'm understanding you get the skill and saving throw proficiencies Beast’s stat block only if they are better than yours: "If a skill or saving throw modifier in the Beast’s stat block is higher than yours, use the one in the stat block."
I had some doubts about the equivalent rule in the 2014 version. If you're interested, I made this thread a while back: Are the skill proficiencies recalculated when the druid Wild Shape?
Hi @TieflingLew!
I just wanted to write again because, after joining the thread Are "natural weapons" still a thing in 2024?, I realized my previous messages might not have fully considered all the information in the 2024 PHB, especially regarding the relationship between Unarmed Strike, monster melee attacks and body parts discussed in that linked thread.
As I posted there, it's not completely clear to me whether what we knew as "natural weapons" in 2014 now count as Unarmed Strike in 2024.
But even so, I don't want to confuse people, so it's worth warning future visitors by providing all the info we have so far.
Thank you for pointing me over there!
One interesting note, natural attacks aren't listed under attacks of opportunity in the new Player's Handbook, only weapons and unarmed strikes. I assume that means natural attacks are one of those two. Weapons are defined as the simple and martial weapons listed in the book so I would assume natural attacks now count as Unarmed Strikes. If they don't you can't make AoOs while Wild Shaped.
I believe under "Unarmed Strikes" it is specified that all creatures can make Unarmed Strikes regardless of their statblocks using dealing damage equal to your STR modifier. But the long and short of it is, Monk-Druid is incredibly broken if the beast's attacks are allowed to count as Unarmed Strikes and thus allowing the monk to make 2 such attacks as a BA with Flurry of Blows as many beasts make a single attack with damage comparable to a Multiattack. So regardless of RAW, the only fair ruling at the table is to only allow a Monk-Druid to make their Monk-BA attacks using their Monk unarmed strikes.
Agreed on the prof bonus. We will have to see when the monster manual comes out but I think not allowing you to use your druid prof bons for attacks may narrow the range of creatures you can use down to a tiny sliver. The known form limit may be pointless as you will only need like 2, here is my form, and oh here is my flying form.
For non-Moon druids WS was never combat-viable in 2014, and remains not combat-viable in 2024. But that doesn't make it a bad feature, it is an incredible exploration / problem-solving tool. For Moon Druid in 2014 you have almost no viable Beast choices for level 9 and higher (CR 3+), either you swapped to using Elemental Forms or just use WS for mobility and deal damage using concentration spells and essentially never use the beast's attacks. I don't expect this to change in 2024 except that Elemental Forms are gone now.
I'm mainly talking moon druid. You need one maybe 2 exploration forms, flight and maybe like a tiny burrower. But for combat you'd want some variety as a moon druid. So you aren't just X for 3 levels. How good you can hit does not matter for non moon druids.
I disagree, there are lots of exploration forms you want, but at any given level there's only 1-2 viable combat forms. At CR1 it's Brown Bear, Dire Wolf (maybe Giant Spider/Giant Octopus/Giant Vulture), a CR 2 it is Polar Bear or Giant Constrictor Snake (maybe Allosaurus), at CR 3 there is Ankylosurus or Bristled Moorbounder(maybe Giant Scorpion), CR 4 there is Elephant or Stegosaurus I guess?, CR 5 is Giant Crocodile
A related topic Extra Attack vs. Multiattack
- What do you do if you go to e.g. Monk 5 and gain Extra attack?
The Extra attack stems from class features and thus carries over to Wild Shape, and being Moon Druid you have access to forms with Multiattack - I haven't found any clarification on this interaction in the 2024....
I'd say that if you prefer to use your Monk's Extra Attack, you should choose the appropriate attack from the creature and attack twice. For instance, Bite in the case of a Wolf.
The clarification is no different from the 2014 rules.
The Attack Action is an action and Multiattack is an action, you pick which one you want to do on your turn.
Extra Attack is a class feature that modifies your Attack Action and thus it has no impact if you choose to use Multiattack.