Every time someone is playing the assassin they go forward solo will fire off a shot and use a rogues mobility to try and draw the enemies towards us into a ambush, unless we have someone with pass without trace then usually the whole party is so stealthy we don't need it.
as for the main point of this thread, yes at most levels the damage boost is total weak sauce. Even at 8th level 8 extra damage on one attack the entire fight is so low its borderline unnoticeable. When the bonus damage is in the range of just rolling slightly better than normal it feels weak.
If your not using good tactics then I can see why you are seeing it as triggering "1 in 5" fights. Are you approaching each fight as a group and not having the Assassin stealth up ahead of the party as to not have to have the rest of the noisy tanks ruin it for them? Then strike and dash back to the group.
I DMed a 1-year campaign with an Assassin and they never used Assassinate. Part of the problem was 3/4 combats were the enemies coming towards the players rather than the players hunting down the enemy, and in many other situations the party didn't know if an NPC was a monster they needed to kill or one they could talk/negotiate their way out of. Here are just a handful of examples:
1) a vampire living in a mine who set up protective wards to alert them if anyone entered the mine which the players didn't notice. 2) a military squadron arriving to forcibly evict/evacuate some civilians. - party tried to negotiate but it devolved into violence. 3) attacked by pirates on a sea journey 4) a guard-Manticore stalking the party from the rafters in a warehouse they were investigating 5) a group of harpies hunting travellers along a cliff-side trail. 6) a strange hut in the middle of a swamp. - turns out the old woman living there was a hag turning people into were-creature. 7) investigating a lighthouse that had gone silent because it had been taken over by sahaugin, after the wizard threw a fireball into the main room, no chance of sneaking up on anyone. 8) an angel who was their ally until they touched a cursed magic item. 9) a scout being chased by an enemy military patrol asked them for help. 10) a group of assassins trying to ambush one of the party members
I don’t play a Rogue, so I probably shouldn’t be commenting… but. lol As a DM, my party has a rogue and he is CONSTANTLY scouting out ahead of the party, stealthing in and out of shadows and cover, and just doing rogue things. I just imagined that every party with a rogue in it did the same thing, but based on what I’m seeing here, I guess that is not the case. I suppose if you play a rogue in a party that is just tromping about as a huddled group, the new rules are great. If you play a rogue like the one in my group, the new rules assassinated your willingness to play an assassin rogue. 🤷♂️
It depends on how the DM runs things; depending on how places are set up and how Stealth is handled, a Rogue might be able to effectively run forward recon and assassination stuff, or they'll just run into a bunch of enemies and get mobbed without backup.
The thing about 2014 surprise is, it's such a win button already that adding assassinate bonuses to it is completely redundant; any fight where you needed the assassinate bonus is a fight that you'll just straight up die if you don't get it. Thus, what you wind up with is the assassin going off scouting, doing assassin-y things, and it works great until something eats him.
2024 Assassinate makes me kind of sad. In 2014, it's a bit harder to use, but it does more damage, especially when you consider that the rouge might have a weapon that does extra damage, like a flame tongue.
2014 damage:
3rd level: 1d6 + 3 from the weapon plus 2d6 from sneak attack, doubled by the crit. Total: 24.
20th level: 1d6 +5 from the weapon plus 10d6 from sneak attack, doubled. Total: 82.
2024 damage:
3rd level: 1d6 +3 from the weapon plus 2d6 from sneak attack, plus 3 from assassinate. Total: 16.
20th level: 1d6 + 5 from the weapon plus 10d6 sneak attack, plus 20 from assassinate. Total: 63.
2024 Assassinate makes me kind of sad. In 2014, it's a bit harder to use
Where 'a bit harder' translates as 'completely impossible to use in most fights'. 2024 assassinate is actually usable every combat.
If the Rogue can't use assassinate, their either being very dumb and not sneaking or the DM is being mean and never setting up situations where they can sneak. I did use some homebrew for surprise, but the assassin was able to use assassinate quite frequently, and it was awesome.
2024 Assassinate makes me kind of sad. In 2014, it's a bit harder to use
Where 'a bit harder' translates as 'completely impossible to use in most fights'. 2024 assassinate is actually usable every combat.
If the Rogue can't use assassinate, their either being very dumb and not sneaking or the DM is being mean and never setting up situations where they can sneak. I did use some homebrew for surprise, but the assassin was able to use assassinate quite frequently, and it was awesome.
That's a pretty big generalization. Getting the auto crit from a 2014 Assassin requires the target be Surprised, meaning either the party as a whole has successfully snuck up on a group of enemies and attacked them- which can happen, but not consistently for a typical party composition- or that the Rogue has run off ahead of the party, and given how groups of enemies are typically positioned on a map has likely just aggroed a bunch of other enemies even if they managed to get a OHK on the one. And you're especially stretching to say people are doing it wrong when you admit you're not running RAW of Surprise, since that means your experiences are not going to track with the baseline.
For my 2 cents, I can understand both sides of the debate here, but I think that ultimately the success or failure of a subclass is based on how well it allows you to play the role it implies. If a thief didn't have an ability set that facilitated thievery, it would be a total failure of the subclass, regardless of how good it is in combat. By that same logic, the new assassin is, indeed, a fail. Taking a level 10 assassin as an example, they'll do 10 points extra damage in any given combat. That's it. 10 points. Everything else they might do is pure rogue only abilities. Assassinate will give ONLY 10 points of damage. Meanwhile, most CR 5+ creatures have 70+ HP, so you won't be assassinating ANYTHING. Yes, the extra means of getting advantage is nice, but with the vex weapon mastery it's super easy to get advantage on pretty much every attack (even before vex, it wasn't really that difficult, but now it's almost TOO easy. But that's a separate issue...). Advantage on initiative is, truly, very good, but that isn't the point of the subclass.
Obviously, the 2014 version had it's issues as well, but when it functioned the way it was meant to work (I assume that it was intended that groups would work together more intentionally to make it work), you could do MUCH more damage, especially if your group was using the alternative crit rule found in the 2014 DMG (the same one, I believe, that Critical Role uses). A level 10 assassin with a short sword would do a total of 6d6+5 (assuming max dex) on a sneak attack. With assassinate, that would be an additional 21 points of damage on average with the standard crit (over double the 2024 additional damage) and 36 points of damage flat with the alternative crit rule (3 and a half times the 2024 version, guaranteed!!). Even with that level of damage, you still won't be assassinating every enemy, but it IS within the realm of possibility, at least. A conjurer wizard, CR 6, only has 58 HP (on average). Completely impossible to assassinate with the 2024 rules, even for such a squishy enemy (max damage would be 51 if you managed to miraculously roll all sixes). With the 2014 rules, it would be challenging, but very possible with a total average of 47 damage and max of 77). And with the alt crit, it would be statistically probable with average damage rolling in at 62.
Bottom line is that the 2024 assassin....ISN'T an assassin. Unless, they're assassinating...I don't know... children? In which case, we need to have a VERY different conversation.
I have two suggestions for solutions: 1) Use 2014 rule for "assassinate," but instead of requiring "surprise" make the requirement something like, "the first sneak attack the assassin makes while hidden". This would make "assassinate" very achievable in every combat. Even if you were ambushed, it's reasonable that a skilled assassin could slip into the shadows in the confusion and pick off one of the aggressors.
2) Use 2024 rules, but change it to say, "EVERY sneak attack made from hiding gains the additional damage" (maybe even ANY attack from hiding gains the extra damage?).
The first is more "Hitman" style assassin, while the second is more "death by many cuts" style. Although the latter still wouldn't technically be assassinating anyone, it has the bonus of extending the assassin feel throughout the entire battle, which in some ways could be even better. I'd probably just ask my player which he/she/they would prefer--rule of fun, and all.
Again, I can understand those who argue that the 2024 assassin ISN'T BAD. I get it--it's still viable; it still plays as a rogue. It just doesn't accomplish the role it was designed to fill and (for me, at least) that means it is an inherently flawed subclass.
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Every time someone is playing the assassin they go forward solo will fire off a shot and use a rogues mobility to try and draw the enemies towards us into a ambush, unless we have someone with pass without trace then usually the whole party is so stealthy we don't need it.
as for the main point of this thread, yes at most levels the damage boost is total weak sauce. Even at 8th level 8 extra damage on one attack the entire fight is so low its borderline unnoticeable. When the bonus damage is in the range of just rolling slightly better than normal it feels weak.
I DMed a 1-year campaign with an Assassin and they never used Assassinate. Part of the problem was 3/4 combats were the enemies coming towards the players rather than the players hunting down the enemy, and in many other situations the party didn't know if an NPC was a monster they needed to kill or one they could talk/negotiate their way out of. Here are just a handful of examples:
1) a vampire living in a mine who set up protective wards to alert them if anyone entered the mine which the players didn't notice.
2) a military squadron arriving to forcibly evict/evacuate some civilians. - party tried to negotiate but it devolved into violence.
3) attacked by pirates on a sea journey
4) a guard-Manticore stalking the party from the rafters in a warehouse they were investigating
5) a group of harpies hunting travellers along a cliff-side trail.
6) a strange hut in the middle of a swamp. - turns out the old woman living there was a hag turning people into were-creature.
7) investigating a lighthouse that had gone silent because it had been taken over by sahaugin, after the wizard threw a fireball into the main room, no chance of sneaking up on anyone.
8) an angel who was their ally until they touched a cursed magic item.
9) a scout being chased by an enemy military patrol asked them for help.
10) a group of assassins trying to ambush one of the party members
I don’t play a Rogue, so I probably shouldn’t be commenting… but. lol As a DM, my party has a rogue and he is CONSTANTLY scouting out ahead of the party, stealthing in and out of shadows and cover, and just doing rogue things. I just imagined that every party with a rogue in it did the same thing, but based on what I’m seeing here, I guess that is not the case. I suppose if you play a rogue in a party that is just tromping about as a huddled group, the new rules are great. If you play a rogue like the one in my group, the new rules assassinated your willingness to play an assassin rogue. 🤷♂️
It depends on how the DM runs things; depending on how places are set up and how Stealth is handled, a Rogue might be able to effectively run forward recon and assassination stuff, or they'll just run into a bunch of enemies and get mobbed without backup.
The thing about 2014 surprise is, it's such a win button already that adding assassinate bonuses to it is completely redundant; any fight where you needed the assassinate bonus is a fight that you'll just straight up die if you don't get it. Thus, what you wind up with is the assassin going off scouting, doing assassin-y things, and it works great until something eats him.
2024 Assassinate makes me kind of sad. In 2014, it's a bit harder to use, but it does more damage, especially when you consider that the rouge might have a weapon that does extra damage, like a flame tongue.
2014 damage:
3rd level: 1d6 + 3 from the weapon plus 2d6 from sneak attack, doubled by the crit. Total: 24.
20th level: 1d6 +5 from the weapon plus 10d6 from sneak attack, doubled. Total: 82.
2024 damage:
3rd level: 1d6 +3 from the weapon plus 2d6 from sneak attack, plus 3 from assassinate. Total: 16.
20th level: 1d6 + 5 from the weapon plus 10d6 sneak attack, plus 20 from assassinate. Total: 63.
Where 'a bit harder' translates as 'completely impossible to use in most fights'. 2024 assassinate is actually usable every combat.
If the Rogue can't use assassinate, their either being very dumb and not sneaking or the DM is being mean and never setting up situations where they can sneak. I did use some homebrew for surprise, but the assassin was able to use assassinate quite frequently, and it was awesome.
That's a pretty big generalization. Getting the auto crit from a 2014 Assassin requires the target be Surprised, meaning either the party as a whole has successfully snuck up on a group of enemies and attacked them- which can happen, but not consistently for a typical party composition- or that the Rogue has run off ahead of the party, and given how groups of enemies are typically positioned on a map has likely just aggroed a bunch of other enemies even if they managed to get a OHK on the one. And you're especially stretching to say people are doing it wrong when you admit you're not running RAW of Surprise, since that means your experiences are not going to track with the baseline.
For my 2 cents, I can understand both sides of the debate here, but I think that ultimately the success or failure of a subclass is based on how well it allows you to play the role it implies. If a thief didn't have an ability set that facilitated thievery, it would be a total failure of the subclass, regardless of how good it is in combat. By that same logic, the new assassin is, indeed, a fail. Taking a level 10 assassin as an example, they'll do 10 points extra damage in any given combat. That's it. 10 points. Everything else they might do is pure rogue only abilities. Assassinate will give ONLY 10 points of damage. Meanwhile, most CR 5+ creatures have 70+ HP, so you won't be assassinating ANYTHING. Yes, the extra means of getting advantage is nice, but with the vex weapon mastery it's super easy to get advantage on pretty much every attack (even before vex, it wasn't really that difficult, but now it's almost TOO easy. But that's a separate issue...). Advantage on initiative is, truly, very good, but that isn't the point of the subclass.
Obviously, the 2014 version had it's issues as well, but when it functioned the way it was meant to work (I assume that it was intended that groups would work together more intentionally to make it work), you could do MUCH more damage, especially if your group was using the alternative crit rule found in the 2014 DMG (the same one, I believe, that Critical Role uses). A level 10 assassin with a short sword would do a total of 6d6+5 (assuming max dex) on a sneak attack. With assassinate, that would be an additional 21 points of damage on average with the standard crit (over double the 2024 additional damage) and 36 points of damage flat with the alternative crit rule (3 and a half times the 2024 version, guaranteed!!). Even with that level of damage, you still won't be assassinating every enemy, but it IS within the realm of possibility, at least. A conjurer wizard, CR 6, only has 58 HP (on average). Completely impossible to assassinate with the 2024 rules, even for such a squishy enemy (max damage would be 51 if you managed to miraculously roll all sixes). With the 2014 rules, it would be challenging, but very possible with a total average of 47 damage and max of 77). And with the alt crit, it would be statistically probable with average damage rolling in at 62.
Bottom line is that the 2024 assassin....ISN'T an assassin. Unless, they're assassinating...I don't know... children? In which case, we need to have a VERY different conversation.
I have two suggestions for solutions:
1) Use 2014 rule for "assassinate," but instead of requiring "surprise" make the requirement something like, "the first sneak attack the assassin makes while hidden". This would make "assassinate" very achievable in every combat. Even if you were ambushed, it's reasonable that a skilled assassin could slip into the shadows in the confusion and pick off one of the aggressors.
2) Use 2024 rules, but change it to say, "EVERY sneak attack made from hiding gains the additional damage" (maybe even ANY attack from hiding gains the extra damage?).
The first is more "Hitman" style assassin, while the second is more "death by many cuts" style. Although the latter still wouldn't technically be assassinating anyone, it has the bonus of extending the assassin feel throughout the entire battle, which in some ways could be even better. I'd probably just ask my player which he/she/they would prefer--rule of fun, and all.
Again, I can understand those who argue that the 2024 assassin ISN'T BAD. I get it--it's still viable; it still plays as a rogue. It just doesn't accomplish the role it was designed to fill and (for me, at least) that means it is an inherently flawed subclass.