Are the Light and Nick properties redundant when it comes to the Scimitar of Speed? Given that it gives an extra attack as a bonus action and you only get one bonus action per turn I'm assuming the answer is yes. Can anyone confirm this? Cheers in advance.
Let's say you have a Scimitar of Speed and a regular dagger. For this example, you have 1 attack per action and the Nick Mastery property.
Attack 1 - Scimitar of Speed (Attack action)
Attack 2 - Dagger (Added to Attack action with Nick)
Attack 3 - Scimitar of Speed (Bonus action)
In this example, you didn't use your bonus action before, so the Scimitar of Speed was able to utilize its ability, which is different from what you get with the Light property.
I agree with Athanar90 and would that another added benefit is that with a Scimitar of Speed you can make one attack with it as a bonus action without necessarily taking the Attack action.
Let's say you have a Scimitar of Speed and a regular dagger. For this example, you have 1 attack per action and the Nick Mastery property.
Attack 1 - Scimitar of Speed (Attack action)
Attack 2 - Dagger (Added to Attack action with Nick)
Attack 3 - Scimitar of Speed (Bonus action)
In this example, you didn't use your bonus action before, so the Scimitar of Speed was able to utilize its ability, which is different from what you get with the Light property.
Would you still loose your damage modifier on the dagger since you are two-hand fighting?
Let's say you have a Scimitar of Speed and a regular dagger. For this example, you have 1 attack per action and the Nick Mastery property.
Attack 1 - Scimitar of Speed (Attack action)
Attack 2 - Dagger (Added to Attack action with Nick)
Attack 3 - Scimitar of Speed (Bonus action)
In this example, you didn't use your bonus action before, so the Scimitar of Speed was able to utilize its ability, which is different from what you get with the Light property.
Would you still loose your damage modifier on the dagger since you are two-hand fighting?
Unless you have a feature that says otherwise, yes. Nick changes the timing of the extra attack but nothing more.
What about a readied action? I guess this question could be a little more broad than relating to Scimitar of Speed but the Scimitar creates a strong use case. If you ready an attack with a Nick property weapon to occur on another player's turn, can you activate the Nick property attack on that readied attack?
Nick starts off saying "When you make the extra attack of the Light property". Stopping there, typically a Light property extra attack is not available on another player's turn. But when you read the rest of Nick "you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action." I'm taking an attack action on another player's turn, and reading this far into the weapon mastery has made clear it is not being made as a bonus action (which would not be allowed on another player's turn). Where would this end up?
Just debating how Scimitar of Speed could still be a strong enabler of multiple sneak attacks. One bonus action opportunity to activate on your turn, and two readied attack opportunities to activate on another player's turn.
No, you can’t use Nick on another player’s turn because the basic Light property that allows for TWF only triggers when you take the Attack Action, which is impossible to do outside of your turn.
He spells out that you are readying that ACTION for use on another player's turn. Extra attack is another case where this discussion comes up but even as Jeremy highlights here, the reason Extra Attack doesn't work is because Extra Attack specifies when you use the ATTACK ACTION on YOUR TURN. I think it's pretty strongly implied here that for other considerations, yes, you are "taking the attack action on another player's turn".
So my question stands, when I take the attack action on another player's turn and if Nick allows me to attack a second time AS PART OF THE ATTACK ACTION and doesn't SPECICALLY require that benefit to come up on my turn, shouldn't I get the Nick attack on a readied attack?
He spells out that you are readying that ACTION for use on another player's turn. Extra attack is another case where this discussion comes up but even as Jeremy highlights here, the reason Extra Attack doesn't work is because Extra Attack specifies when you use the ATTACK ACTION on YOUR TURN. I think it's pretty strongly implied here that for other considerations, yes, you are "taking the attack action on another player's turn".
So my question stands, when I take the attack action on another player's turn and if Nick allows me to attack a second time AS PART OF THE ATTACK ACTION and doesn't SPECICALLY require that benefit to come up on my turn, shouldn't I get the Nick attack on a readied attack?
No! The Light property only works on your turn (see the quote below, emphasis mine) and as the Nick property only modifies the attack from the "Light" property then you are left with nothing outside of your turn. But it was a good try.
Light
When you take the Attack action on your turn and attack with a Light weapon, you can make one extra attack as a Bonus Action later on the same turn. That extra attack must be made with a different Light weapon, and you don’t add your ability modifier to the extra attack’s damage unless that modifier is negative. For example, you can attack with a Shortsword in one hand and a Dagger in the other using the Attack action and a Bonus Action, but you don’t add your Strength or Dexterity modifier to the damage roll of the Bonus Action unless that modifier is negative.
That explanation makes sense but I still think the wording is a mess (as has been the case with lots of wording around light weapon property and nick weapon mastery). To make it really clear, Nick should have just also said "on your turn" when describing the extra attack as part of the attack action. It's difficult for me to understand what supersedes what and just feels like there's missing wording. Light says it works one way but the rest of the Nick language makes it sound like it works in a different way.
Ultimately this sucks because it's a relative nerf to two ways that Scimitar of Speed could have been historically used to good effect. Using it to split attacks between turns for more sneak attack opportunities can still happen but you're strictly losing out on the benefit of weapon mastery on your delayed attack action. You can also still use a scimitar and a shield to generate the same two attacks you always could, but Nick does nothing for you in this case since you don't have a second light weapon waiting.
So whereas Nick produces a new extra attack in many cases, it doesn't do a whole lot on Scimitar of Speed.
That explanation makes sense but I still think the wording is a mess (as has been the case with lots of wording around light weapon property and nick weapon mastery). To make it really clear, Nick should have just also said "on your turn" when describing the extra attack as part of the attack action. It's difficult for me to understand what supersedes what and just feels like there's missing wording. Light says it works one way but the rest of the Nick language makes it sound like it works in a different way.
Ultimately this sucks because it's a relative nerf to two ways that Scimitar of Speed could have been historically used to good effect. Using it to split attacks between turns for more sneak attack opportunities can still happen but you're strictly losing out on the benefit of weapon mastery on your delayed attack action. You can also still use a scimitar and a shield to generate the same two attacks you always could, but Nick does nothing for you in this case since you don't have a second light weapon waiting.
So whereas Nick produces a new extra attack in many cases, it doesn't do a whole lot on Scimitar of Speed.
Nick piggybacks off of the Light property. Anything it doesn't alter from the Light property is fully intact. That's why it doesn't specify, because it simply doesn't need to.
Frankly, it’s fine as-is. It’s pretty clearly a deliberate design choice that you can’t get more than 1 additional attack from a reaction short of holding certain spells (which comes with a pair of downsides), and Scimitar of Speed is hardly nerfed by being able to add an extra attack on your turn on top of the Nick attack.
But you can already just accomplish that with the dual wielder feature, which is way more accessible than a very rare magic item that also requires attunement. If you're not using the bonus attack action from the Scimitar to order your actions differently (Bonus action attack that isn't depending on having made an attack action) or allowing an extra attack that doesn't require a second weapon being held (benefit from holding a shield), it's just a way harder to acquire version of Dual Wielder feat.
My point is the Nick property is relatively wasted on this item in its higher power use cases. I would literally rather have almost any other weapon mastery on it given how the effect of the weapon functions.
Are the Light and Nick properties redundant when it comes to the Scimitar of Speed? Given that it gives an extra attack as a bonus action and you only get one bonus action per turn I'm assuming the answer is yes. Can anyone confirm this? Cheers in advance.
Let's say you have a Scimitar of Speed and a regular dagger. For this example, you have 1 attack per action and the Nick Mastery property.
Attack 1 - Scimitar of Speed (Attack action)
Attack 2 - Dagger (Added to Attack action with Nick)
Attack 3 - Scimitar of Speed (Bonus action)
In this example, you didn't use your bonus action before, so the Scimitar of Speed was able to utilize its ability, which is different from what you get with the Light property.
I agree with Athanar90 and would that another added benefit is that with a Scimitar of Speed you can make one attack with it as a bonus action without necessarily taking the Attack action.
Would you still loose your damage modifier on the dagger since you are two-hand fighting?
Unless you have a feature that says otherwise, yes. Nick changes the timing of the extra attack but nothing more.
Cheers everyone.
What about a readied action? I guess this question could be a little more broad than relating to Scimitar of Speed but the Scimitar creates a strong use case. If you ready an attack with a Nick property weapon to occur on another player's turn, can you activate the Nick property attack on that readied attack?
Nick starts off saying "When you make the extra attack of the Light property". Stopping there, typically a Light property extra attack is not available on another player's turn. But when you read the rest of Nick "you can make it as part of the Attack action instead of as a Bonus Action." I'm taking an attack action on another player's turn, and reading this far into the weapon mastery has made clear it is not being made as a bonus action (which would not be allowed on another player's turn). Where would this end up?
Just debating how Scimitar of Speed could still be a strong enabler of multiple sneak attacks. One bonus action opportunity to activate on your turn, and two readied attack opportunities to activate on another player's turn.
No, you can’t use Nick on another player’s turn because the basic Light property that allows for TWF only triggers when you take the Attack Action, which is impossible to do outside of your turn.
How is preparing to take an attack action on someone else's turn not taking the attack action outside of your turn? Calling back to this Jeremy Crawford tweet: Jeremy Crawford on X: "The Ready action lets you ready any action you can take, including Attack, but Extra Attack is on your turn. https://t.co/5txJB0u8MH" / X
He spells out that you are readying that ACTION for use on another player's turn. Extra attack is another case where this discussion comes up but even as Jeremy highlights here, the reason Extra Attack doesn't work is because Extra Attack specifies when you use the ATTACK ACTION on YOUR TURN. I think it's pretty strongly implied here that for other considerations, yes, you are "taking the attack action on another player's turn".
So my question stands, when I take the attack action on another player's turn and if Nick allows me to attack a second time AS PART OF THE ATTACK ACTION and doesn't SPECICALLY require that benefit to come up on my turn, shouldn't I get the Nick attack on a readied attack?
No! The Light property only works on your turn (see the quote below, emphasis mine) and as the Nick property only modifies the attack from the "Light" property then you are left with nothing outside of your turn. But it was a good try.
That explanation makes sense but I still think the wording is a mess (as has been the case with lots of wording around light weapon property and nick weapon mastery). To make it really clear, Nick should have just also said "on your turn" when describing the extra attack as part of the attack action. It's difficult for me to understand what supersedes what and just feels like there's missing wording. Light says it works one way but the rest of the Nick language makes it sound like it works in a different way.
Ultimately this sucks because it's a relative nerf to two ways that Scimitar of Speed could have been historically used to good effect. Using it to split attacks between turns for more sneak attack opportunities can still happen but you're strictly losing out on the benefit of weapon mastery on your delayed attack action. You can also still use a scimitar and a shield to generate the same two attacks you always could, but Nick does nothing for you in this case since you don't have a second light weapon waiting.
So whereas Nick produces a new extra attack in many cases, it doesn't do a whole lot on Scimitar of Speed.
Nick piggybacks off of the Light property. Anything it doesn't alter from the Light property is fully intact. That's why it doesn't specify, because it simply doesn't need to.
Frankly, it’s fine as-is. It’s pretty clearly a deliberate design choice that you can’t get more than 1 additional attack from a reaction short of holding certain spells (which comes with a pair of downsides), and Scimitar of Speed is hardly nerfed by being able to add an extra attack on your turn on top of the Nick attack.
But you can already just accomplish that with the dual wielder feature, which is way more accessible than a very rare magic item that also requires attunement. If you're not using the bonus attack action from the Scimitar to order your actions differently (Bonus action attack that isn't depending on having made an attack action) or allowing an extra attack that doesn't require a second weapon being held (benefit from holding a shield), it's just a way harder to acquire version of Dual Wielder feat.
My point is the Nick property is relatively wasted on this item in its higher power use cases. I would literally rather have almost any other weapon mastery on it given how the effect of the weapon functions.
And Dual Wielder requires you to spend a feat; it’s a trade-off.
Also, keep in mind that presently Nick was just retroactively assigned to an existing block. There’s a chance it’ll be tweaked in the new DMG.