First in recent times Jeremy Crawford has been really clear that extra distance doesn't increase past your movement speed. But in the new rules an issue has come up at my table.
Level 9: Brutal Strike
If you use Reckless Attack, you can forgo any Advantage on one Strength-based attack roll of your choice on your turn. The chosen attack roll mustn’t have Disadvantage. If the chosen attack roll hits, the target takes an extra 1d10 damage of the same type dealt by the weapon or Unarmed Strike, and you can cause one Brutal Strike effect of your choice. You have the following effect options.
Forceful Blow. The target is pushed 15 feet straight away from you. You can then move up to half your Speed straight toward the target without provoking Opportunity Attacks.
So if the Barbarian moves their max speed, hits a Brutal Strike using Forceful Blow can they make the half speed movement? I would ask this directly to Jeremy Crawford on Twitter using the rulings hashtag... but Since someone allowed Twitter to drop into the worst cesspool on Earth I don't post on there anymore.
Since it doesn't actually grant additional movement, like tabaxi's feline agility or the Dash action does, you cannot take the movement if you have already expended all of your movement.
This isn't SUPER painful for martial classes, which spend multiple turns without using any movement, and cancels opportunity attacks, allowing you to separate yourself from a flanking situation, or to create one in your favor.
Even though you could have moved either way, those 20 (probably) feet you moved not provoking Opportunity Attacks is a decent way to get yourself put of a bad situation
To expand on this, Move speed is the max movement per turn, not round, so opportunity attacks and reactions are unaffected because you haven't spent move speed.
I can speak more to this topic as the barbarian in question.
In this scenario, I am a recently respec'd Path of the World Tree barbarian fighting with a reflavored lance. Since I have 10 feet of reach with the lance, an additional 10 feet of reach from Battering Roots, I can combine Push mastery and Forceful Blow to push a target out of my reach if I had to use my 40 foot of movement to approach the target. While I can agree that "can" doesn't mean "should", it seems rather pointless to use that ability unless I'm trying to escape a bad situation (bad situations are exactly where my character belongs, but that's neither here nor 25 feet over there).
This is mainly a thought exercise as this ability reads a lot like a Battlemaster Fighter's Maneuvering Strike that grants additional movement that doesn't count against your speed, but it's made more complicated due to the fact that M.Strike is done on the Fighters turn and F.Blow is done on the Barbarian's turn.
Maneuvering Attack
When you hit a creature with an attack roll, you can expend one Superiority Die to maneuver one of your comrades into another position. Add the Superiority Die roll to the attack’s damage roll, and choose a willing creature who can see or hear you. That creature can use its Reaction to move up to half its Speed without provoking an Opportunity Attack from the target of your attack.
This does not say specifically that it grants additional movement speed, it just uses "half its Speed" as a measurement to dictate how far the ability allows you to go. In my mind, they are almost identical in that regard and I should be able to move 40 feet, and push at target 25 feet away and then chase it an additional 20 feet.
I can speak more to this topic as the barbarian in question.
In this scenario, I am a recently respec'd Path of the World Tree barbarian fighting with a reflavored lance. Since I have 10 feet of reach with the lance, an additional 10 feet of reach from Battering Roots, I can combine Push mastery and Forceful Blow to push a target out of my reach if I had to use my 40 foot of movement to approach the target. While I can agree that "can" doesn't mean "should", it seems rather pointless to use that ability unless I'm trying to escape a bad situation (bad situations are exactly where my character belongs, but that's neither here nor 25 feet over there).
This is mainly a thought exercise as this ability reads a lot like a Battlemaster Fighter's Maneuvering Strike that grants additional movement that doesn't count against your speed, but it's made more complicated due to the fact that M.Strike is done on the Fighters turn and F.Blow is done on the Barbarian's turn.
Maneuvering Attack
When you hit a creature with an attack roll, you can expend one Superiority Die to maneuver one of your comrades into another position. Add the Superiority Die roll to the attack’s damage roll, and choose a willing creature who can see or hear you. That creature can use its Reaction to move up to half its Speed without provoking an Opportunity Attack from the target of your attack.
This does not say specifically that it grants additional movement speed, it just uses "half its Speed" as a measurement to dictate how far the ability allows you to go. In my mind, they are almost identical in that regard and I should be able to move 40 feet, and push at target 25 feet away and then chase it an additional 20 feet.
In short, big angy and want run fast.
In that instance, the ally still expends movement, but since they haven't used any of their movement this turn, there's no issue (Move speed is limited by turn, not by round)
The ability would read "That creature would gain movement speed equal to half it's Speed," if I ACTUALLY increased movement per turn. Like Zephyr Strike
Zephyr Strike specifies that it increases walking speed by 30 feet, yes. It does not, however, give any impetus to use that speed.
Forceful Blow specifically states that "you can move up to half your speed without provoking opportunity attacks." and does not specify any limitations unlike something such as Harengon's Rabbit Hop.
Rabbit Hop
As a bonus action, you can jump a number of feet equal to five times your proficiency bonus, without provoking opportunity attacks. You can use this trait only if your speed is greater than 0. You can use it a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
It specifically states that you can only use the trait if you have movement speed left. Since D&D is all about specificity overriding general, I don't know that I agree. I still think Forceful Blow allows the extra movement regardless of remaining speed.
Zephyr Strike specifies that it increases walking speed by 30 feet, yes. It does not, however, give any impetus to use that speed.
Forceful Blow specifically states that "you can move up to half your speed without provoking opportunity attacks." and does not specify any limitations unlike something such as Harengon's Rabbit Hop.
Rabbit Hop
As a bonus action, you can jump a number of feet equal to five times your proficiency bonus, without provoking opportunity attacks. You can use this trait only if your speed is greater than 0. You can use it a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
It specifically states that you can only use the trait if you have movement speed left. Since D&D is all about specificity overriding general, I don't know that I agree. I still think Forceful Blow allows the extra movement regardless of remaining speed.
Jumping had to be clarified, since jumping movement taking move speed is not a very common conversation.
Like your said specific overrulling general, there is nothing written in forceful Blows that stats you can move MORE than your Maximum Move Speed, simply that you may do so without provoking opportunity attacks
while the rules don't specify this as clearly as I think it should, I will make a couple of quick comments.
Start of Turn, actions, movement, reactions, bonus action, etc. Start of next turn resets movement speed, bonus actions and reactions etc.
Maneuvering Attack
When you hit a creature with an attack roll, you can expend one Superiority Die to maneuver one of your comrades into another position. Add the Superiority Die roll to the attack’s damage roll, and choose a willing creature who can see or hear you. That creature can use its Reaction to move up to half its Speed without provoking an Opportunity Attacks from the target of your attack.
Does not add movement speed, so if the target has moved full movement on their turn nothing happens. If they have the movement speed left, they move and spend their reaction as well. BTW I loved this ability in 4th edition Warlord. Really added a lot of dynamic to a fight. But in 5th edition if your target has moved their full speed or used their reaction then you wasted that part of the Maneuvering Attack.
Jeremy Crawford was clear, unless an ability specifically gives you more movement speed you can not go past that speed. Which I do feel is unfair when you have Warlocks now with the ability to Misty step every turn. I know where I want to rule for my table, but I need to know the final ruling before I set in text my final thoughts.
And determined that these effects are sources of movement outside of move speed that don't actually expend movement speed
You will have to site what makes you say this, as I just spent the last hour reading it, and saw nothing. Unless there is a new sage advise. Still a link would be helpful.
Zephyr Strike specifies that it increases walking speed by 30 feet, yes. It does not, however, give any impetus to use that speed.
Forceful Blow specifically states that "you can move up to half your speed without provoking opportunity attacks." and does not specify any limitations unlike something such as Harengon's Rabbit Hop.
You're correct that Forceful Blow lets you move outside of the normal movement rules. However, Rabbit Hop is not the best example to use
Rabbit Hop
As a bonus action, you can jump a number of feet equal to five times your proficiency bonus, without provoking opportunity attacks. You can use this trait only if your speed is greater than 0. You can use it a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
It specifically states that you can only use the trait if you have movement speed left. Since D&D is all about specificity overriding general, I don't know that I agree. I still think Forceful Blow allows the extra movement regardless of remaining speed.
Moving during your turn does not change your character's speed. If you have a speed of 30, and move 30 feet during your turn, your speed is still 30.
Conditions that render you immobile do so by making your speed 0. This also neutralizes most powers that let you move some fraction of your speed. However, Rabbit Hop doesn't care about your speed when calculating distance, so they make it explicit.
Is Rabbit Hop subject to the jumping rules, which specify each foot you cover costs you a foot of movement (and thus prevents you from jumping past your base move)? I don't know the official ruling (and I might well disagree with it), but I would say it is a separate ability, and thus not subject to the jumping rules. If they wanted it to be subject to the jumping rules, they could have had it affect your jumping distance, like they did for monks. Also, regular jumping is part of your move, while Rabbit Hop costs your bonus action, and is a limited-use ability as well.
Is Rabbit Hop subject to the jumping rules, which specify each foot you cover costs you a foot of movement (and thus prevents you from jumping past your base move)? I don't know the official ruling (and I might well disagree with it), but I would say it is a separate ability, and thus not subject to the jumping rules. If they wanted it to be subject to the jumping rules, they could have had it affect your jumping distance, like they did for monks. Also, regular jumping is part of your move, while Rabbit Hop costs your bonus action, and is a limited-use ability as well.
The wording of Rabbit Hop slightly reminds me of the new 2024 Jump spell. Maybe it's just me :D
And determined that these effects are sources of movement outside of move speed that don't actually expend movement speed
You will have to site what makes you say this, as I just spent the last hour reading it, and saw nothing. Unless there is a new sage advise. Still a link would be helpful.
typed it wrong, Sage Advice's only mention on movement is pertaining to the jump spell, my argument was based off the assumption this had been SA'd.
However, Specific overrides general, since Forceful Blow is a Source that stats you can do something (specific) it over rules the general rule of movement speed that says you cannot. Also, since it's a source that says you can move, it means it grants movement outside of Move Speed, since it has a different source.
Moving during your turn does not change your character's speed. If you have a speed of 30, and move 30 feet during your turn, your speed is still 30.
You beat me to it. It's pretty shocking how many players and DMs do not interpret the rules this way, but this is indeed the correct answer. The new rules make it even more explicit:
From the Rules Glossary:
Speed
A creature has a Speed, which is the distance in feet the creature can cover when it moves on its turn.
I only meant to imply that since Forceful Blow doesn't have any language stating something along the lines of "You can only use this feature if you haven't already moved over half your speed this turn." then it allows you to move irregardless of how much of your total movement you've used during that turn. Another similar but less relevant ability would be Steady Aim from Rogue that states you can only use the feature if you haven't moved yet, and reduces your speed to 0 after use.
I know you're agreeing with me, I'm just clarifying what I meant by using that example.
To expand on this, Move speed is the max movement per turn, not round, so opportunity attacks and reactions are unaffected because you haven't spent move speed.
This is actually false although it's a common misconception since a lot of other things in the game are limited "per turn".
When it comes to the concepts of Speed and movement, this resource works like this:
Speed
A creature has a Speed, which is the distance in feet the creature can cover when it moves on its turn.
and . . .
Your Turn
On your turn, you can move a distance up to your Speed and take one action. You decide whether to move first or take your action first.
and . . .
Movement and Position
On your turn, you can move a distance equal to your Speed or less. Or you can decide not to move.
. . .
However you’re moving with your Speed, you deduct the distance of each part of your move from it until it is used up or until you are done moving, whichever comes first.
A character’s Speed is determined during character creation. A monster’s Speed is noted in the monster’s stat block.
and . . .
Breaking Up Your Move
You can break up your move, using some of its movement before and after any action, Bonus Action, or Reaction you take on the same turn.
Notice the consistent use of the phrases "on its turn" and "on your turn".
The movement resource that is defined by your Speed statistic is only something that you can use on your turn. You cannot use this resource at all on any other creature's turn. Your speed is effectively 0 on every other creature's turn.
In addition, another very important detail to note in order for all of this to work correctly is that the movement resource that is defined by your Speed statistic is only something that you can use before and after actions, Bonus Actions and Reactions. This resource is NEVER used during an action, Bonus Action or Reaction.
So, does that mean that it's impossible to move in any other scenario? No. It just means that the movement resource that is defined by your Speed statistic cannot be used in any other scenario in general.
That leads us to the concept that is defined in the game as "specific beats general", but is also often summarized or paraphrased by players on these forums as "Spells do what they say. Class Features do what they say." And so on . . .
So, for example, if a class Feature says something like "when you take the (some specifically defined) action, you move X feet". A few things are going on there. First, Features do what they say because specific beats general. Second, this is defining a type of movement that does not use the default ("On Your Turn") movement resource -- it is another type of movement that is specifically granted by the Feature. Third, this movement is something that is occurring during a particular action, as part of the definition of the consequences of taking that action. Therefore, it cannot be the same movement resource, which is something that you do before or after your various actions.
This is why things like Reactions on another creature's turn can function properly if that Reaction specifically defines some sort of movement as part of that Reaction (during the Reaction) or as part of an action that was triggered by your Reaction (during the action).
Moving during your turn does not change your character's speed. If you have a speed of 30, and move 30 feet during your turn, your speed is still 30.
You beat me to it. It's pretty shocking how many players and DMs do not interpret the rules this way, but this is indeed the correct answer. The new rules make it even more explicit:
From the Rules Glossary:
Speed
A creature has a Speed, which is the distance in feet the creature can cover when it moves on its turn.
I haven't had any experience with people that have this misconception.
I see it as spent/speed, you start at 0/30 and can move until 30/30 unless you increase your speed
[...] In addition, another very important detail to note in order for all of this to work correctly is that the movement resource that is defined by your Speed statistic is only something that you can use before and after actions, Bonus Actions and Reactions. This resource is NEVER used during an action, Bonus Action or Reaction. [...]
You can also move between attacks when you take the Attack action:
Attack [Action]
When you take the Attack action, you can make one attack roll with a weapon or an Unarmed Strike.
Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack. Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath or picking it up. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.
Moving between Attacks. If you move on your turn and have a feature, such as Extra Attack, that gives you more than one attack as part of the Attack action, you can use some or all of that movement to move between those attacks.
First in recent times Jeremy Crawford has been really clear that extra distance doesn't increase past your movement speed. But in the new rules an issue has come up at my table.
So if the Barbarian moves their max speed, hits a Brutal Strike using Forceful Blow can they make the half speed movement? I would ask this directly to Jeremy Crawford on Twitter using the rulings hashtag... but Since someone allowed Twitter to drop into the worst cesspool on Earth I don't post on there anymore.
Features like that do not cost movement, no.
Since it doesn't actually grant additional movement, like tabaxi's feline agility or the Dash action does, you cannot take the movement if you have already expended all of your movement.
This isn't SUPER painful for martial classes, which spend multiple turns without using any movement, and cancels opportunity attacks, allowing you to separate yourself from a flanking situation, or to create one in your favor.
Even though you could have moved either way, those 20 (probably) feet you moved not provoking Opportunity Attacks is a decent way to get yourself put of a bad situation
To expand on this, Move speed is the max movement per turn, not round, so opportunity attacks and reactions are unaffected because you haven't spent move speed.
I can speak more to this topic as the barbarian in question.
In this scenario, I am a recently respec'd Path of the World Tree barbarian fighting with a reflavored lance. Since I have 10 feet of reach with the lance, an additional 10 feet of reach from Battering Roots, I can combine Push mastery and Forceful Blow to push a target out of my reach if I had to use my 40 foot of movement to approach the target. While I can agree that "can" doesn't mean "should", it seems rather pointless to use that ability unless I'm trying to escape a bad situation (bad situations are exactly where my character belongs, but that's neither here nor 25 feet over there).
This is mainly a thought exercise as this ability reads a lot like a Battlemaster Fighter's Maneuvering Strike that grants additional movement that doesn't count against your speed, but it's made more complicated due to the fact that M.Strike is done on the Fighters turn and F.Blow is done on the Barbarian's turn.
Maneuvering Attack
When you hit a creature with an attack roll, you can expend one Superiority Die to maneuver one of your comrades into another position. Add the Superiority Die roll to the attack’s damage roll, and choose a willing creature who can see or hear you. That creature can use its Reaction to move up to half its Speed without provoking an Opportunity Attack from the target of your attack.
This does not say specifically that it grants additional movement speed, it just uses "half its Speed" as a measurement to dictate how far the ability allows you to go. In my mind, they are almost identical in that regard and I should be able to move 40 feet, and push at target 25 feet away and then chase it an additional 20 feet.
In short, big angy and want run fast.
In that instance, the ally still expends movement, but since they haven't used any of their movement this turn, there's no issue (Move speed is limited by turn, not by round)
The ability would read "That creature would gain movement speed equal to half it's Speed," if I ACTUALLY increased movement per turn. Like Zephyr Strike
Zephyr Strike specifies that it increases walking speed by 30 feet, yes. It does not, however, give any impetus to use that speed.
Forceful Blow specifically states that "you can move up to half your speed without provoking opportunity attacks." and does not specify any limitations unlike something such as Harengon's Rabbit Hop.
Rabbit Hop
As a bonus action, you can jump a number of feet equal to five times your proficiency bonus, without provoking opportunity attacks. You can use this trait only if your speed is greater than 0. You can use it a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.
It specifically states that you can only use the trait if you have movement speed left. Since D&D is all about specificity overriding general, I don't know that I agree. I still think Forceful Blow allows the extra movement regardless of remaining speed.
Jumping had to be clarified, since jumping movement taking move speed is not a very common conversation.
Like your said specific overrulling general, there is nothing written in forceful Blows that stats you can move MORE than your Maximum Move Speed, simply that you may do so without provoking opportunity attacks
while the rules don't specify this as clearly as I think it should, I will make a couple of quick comments.
Start of Turn, actions, movement, reactions, bonus action, etc. Start of next turn resets movement speed, bonus actions and reactions etc.
Does not add movement speed, so if the target has moved full movement on their turn nothing happens. If they have the movement speed left, they move and spend their reaction as well. BTW I loved this ability in 4th edition Warlord. Really added a lot of dynamic to a fight. But in 5th edition if your target has moved their full speed or used their reaction then you wasted that part of the Maneuvering Attack.
Jeremy Crawford was clear, unless an ability specifically gives you more movement speed you can not go past that speed. Which I do feel is unfair when you have Warlocks now with the ability to Misty step every turn. I know where I want to rule for my table, but I need to know the final ruling before I set in text my final thoughts.
Unless your speed is 0, Focecul Blow let move up to half your Speed wether you moved this turn or not.
Just for trying to find a similar example: Instinctive Pounce. It gives you extra movement for that turn.
I am in fact Wrong, I checked the sage advice.
And determined that these effects are sources of movement outside of move speed that don't actually expend movement speed
You will have to site what makes you say this, as I just spent the last hour reading it, and saw nothing. Unless there is a new sage advise. Still a link would be helpful.
You're correct that Forceful Blow lets you move outside of the normal movement rules. However, Rabbit Hop is not the best example to use
Moving during your turn does not change your character's speed. If you have a speed of 30, and move 30 feet during your turn, your speed is still 30.
Conditions that render you immobile do so by making your speed 0. This also neutralizes most powers that let you move some fraction of your speed. However, Rabbit Hop doesn't care about your speed when calculating distance, so they make it explicit.
Is Rabbit Hop subject to the jumping rules, which specify each foot you cover costs you a foot of movement (and thus prevents you from jumping past your base move)? I don't know the official ruling (and I might well disagree with it), but I would say it is a separate ability, and thus not subject to the jumping rules. If they wanted it to be subject to the jumping rules, they could have had it affect your jumping distance, like they did for monks. Also, regular jumping is part of your move, while Rabbit Hop costs your bonus action, and is a limited-use ability as well.
The wording of Rabbit Hop slightly reminds me of the new 2024 Jump spell. Maybe it's just me :D
typed it wrong, Sage Advice's only mention on movement is pertaining to the jump spell, my argument was based off the assumption this had been SA'd.
However, Specific overrides general, since Forceful Blow is a Source that stats you can do something (specific) it over rules the general rule of movement speed that says you cannot. Also, since it's a source that says you can move, it means it grants movement outside of Move Speed, since it has a different source.
You beat me to it. It's pretty shocking how many players and DMs do not interpret the rules this way, but this is indeed the correct answer. The new rules make it even more explicit:
From the Rules Glossary:
I only meant to imply that since Forceful Blow doesn't have any language stating something along the lines of "You can only use this feature if you haven't already moved over half your speed this turn." then it allows you to move irregardless of how much of your total movement you've used during that turn. Another similar but less relevant ability would be Steady Aim from Rogue that states you can only use the feature if you haven't moved yet, and reduces your speed to 0 after use.
I know you're agreeing with me, I'm just clarifying what I meant by using that example.
and also . . .
This is actually false although it's a common misconception since a lot of other things in the game are limited "per turn".
When it comes to the concepts of Speed and movement, this resource works like this:
and . . .
and . . .
and . . .
Notice the consistent use of the phrases "on its turn" and "on your turn".
The movement resource that is defined by your Speed statistic is only something that you can use on your turn. You cannot use this resource at all on any other creature's turn. Your speed is effectively 0 on every other creature's turn.
In addition, another very important detail to note in order for all of this to work correctly is that the movement resource that is defined by your Speed statistic is only something that you can use before and after actions, Bonus Actions and Reactions. This resource is NEVER used during an action, Bonus Action or Reaction.
So, does that mean that it's impossible to move in any other scenario? No. It just means that the movement resource that is defined by your Speed statistic cannot be used in any other scenario in general.
That leads us to the concept that is defined in the game as "specific beats general", but is also often summarized or paraphrased by players on these forums as "Spells do what they say. Class Features do what they say." And so on . . .
So, for example, if a class Feature says something like "when you take the (some specifically defined) action, you move X feet". A few things are going on there. First, Features do what they say because specific beats general. Second, this is defining a type of movement that does not use the default ("On Your Turn") movement resource -- it is another type of movement that is specifically granted by the Feature. Third, this movement is something that is occurring during a particular action, as part of the definition of the consequences of taking that action. Therefore, it cannot be the same movement resource, which is something that you do before or after your various actions.
This is why things like Reactions on another creature's turn can function properly if that Reaction specifically defines some sort of movement as part of that Reaction (during the Reaction) or as part of an action that was triggered by your Reaction (during the action).
I haven't had any experience with people that have this misconception.
I see it as spent/speed, you start at 0/30 and can move until 30/30 unless you increase your speed
You can also move between attacks when you take the Attack action: