the result is you can scare yourself and get the frightened condition on yourself, you being the source of your fear, until the start of your next turn. Do that on your 1st attack on your turn and you screw yourself for the rest of the turn: disadvantage on attack rolls and abiliy checks while you have the source of your fear within line of sight, which is always unless you blind yourself, because by RAW, you can see yourself (in raw, it doesnt matter that yous ay something like "i look away from it", is just considered that you CAN look at it from where you are at the moment) and ¿can't move? (usually cant move towards the source of your fear, is debatable if you could or couldnt move towards yourself at all times or away from yourself at all times, is a grey area of the rules for that part) I actually already asked crawford for this because is kinda a weird ruling and kinda confusing, but at least as how is written and by RAW, you do trigger the save and can scare yourself from yourself
Remember, for this analysis, the important information to determine is not whether or not you can see yourself, it's whether or not you have line of sight to your own location. This is adjudicated by a different rule, which is found in the DMG.
For those who missed it, this rule was already posted, and the analysis was already solved by Plaguescarred earlier in this thread:
The 2024 Dungeon Master Guide still has Line of Sight rules; and according to it you don't have line of sight to yourself because you trace an imaginary line from a corner of your space to any part of another space.
Line of Sight
To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If you can trace a line that doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight.
By this definition, it is not possible to have Line of Sight to your own location and therefore you cannot be frightened of yourself. Or more precisely, you can be, but the Frightened Condition has no effect on you if you are the source of your own fear.
"To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces..."
Obviously, you are in your own space. How do you determine if you have line of sight to your own space? All rules in the game for line of sight assume two points at some distance from each other, with the possibility of something potentially interrupting that line. I'm not aware of any rule in the game that talks about line of sight from a point to itself.
You always have line of sight to yourself because nothing could possibly block it, as long as you can see.
You never have line of sight to yourself because the game always treats line of sight as being between two spaces.
One thing is sure, you should be able to choose yourself with effect targeting a creature you can see, unless you're Blinded, Invisibleor in an Heavily Obscured area.
how about playing without a grid ¿can you see yourself? Also, there is a problem with that ruling: it is say "To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space" And actually then you can see yourself by the definition of the Line of sight rule, you CAN pick any corner from your position and make a line between that point to any other corner or to yourself and your space, meaning YOU DO have yourself within your line of sight. Nowhere it estates that you cannot do the line to yourself, it doenst say "to another place that isnt the origin point" or something like that. You can choose any corner and make the line to you, to your position, to any other corner of the place in the grid and there is nothing obstructing the view to yourself from that perspective, you can even make the line to the same point, without obstruction (single point without moving the line) meaning there is a line of sight at all times unless you are blinded
the result is you can scare yourself and get the frightened condition on yourself, you being the source of your fear, until the start of your next turn. Do that on your 1st attack on your turn and you screw yourself for the rest of the turn: disadvantage on attack rolls and abiliy checks while you have the source of your fear within line of sight, which is always unless you blind yourself, because by RAW, you can see yourself (in raw, it doesnt matter that yous ay something like "i look away from it", is just considered that you CAN look at it from where you are at the moment) and ¿can't move? (usually cant move towards the source of your fear, is debatable if you could or couldnt move towards yourself at all times or away from yourself at all times, is a grey area of the rules for that part) I actually already asked crawford for this because is kinda a weird ruling and kinda confusing, but at least as how is written and by RAW, you do trigger the save and can scare yourself from yourself
I don't believe this is true.
If the ranger is within the radius of the effect, then they're subject to it. There's no exception to this. The issue is what does it actually mean. The feature imposes the Frightened condition, and that comes with rules.
Can’t Approach. You can’t willingly move closer to the source of fear.
Since you are the source, the second bullet must be moot. No matter how you move, you're literally as close as mechanically possible and your distance from the source never changes. As for the first point, we need to define line of sight.
To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If you can trace a line that doesn’t pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight.
That's it. You can't have line of sight from your space to another space and still be within your space. It's strictly for seeing from one space to another.
Mechanically, while the ranger is subject to the effect, it doesn't actually do anything. Narratively, your power momentarily scares you.
The Sage Advice Compendium has a question on the subject and may not refers to the Line of Sight rules.
The frightened condition says “while the source of its fear is within line of sight.” Does that mean you have disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks even if the source is invisible but you have a clear line to its space?
No. If you can’t see something, it’s not within your line of sight. Speaking of “line of sight,” the game uses the English meaning of the term, which has no special meaning in the rules.
One thing is sure, you should be able to choose yourself with effect targeting a creature you can see, unless you're Blinded, Invisibleor in an Heavily Obscured area.
This is also supported by the spellcasting rules:
Targeting Yourself. If a spell targets a creature of your choice, you can choose yourself unless the creature must be Hostile or specifically a creature other than you.
So line of sight would have no special meaning in the rules, but Line of Sight rules for grid play is optional rules a DM can use and don't really address same space determination. But as DM i would consider two creatures sharing the same space with be within line of sight of each other both in core rules and Line of Sight grid play optional rules.
So line of sight would have no special meaning in the rules, but Line of Sight rules for grid play is optional rules a DM can use and don't really address same space determination. But as DM i would consider two creatures sharing the same space with be within line of sight of each other both in core rules and Line of Sight grid play optional rules.
Same opinion here.
And I have a new scenario to think about: your character and a swarm occupying the same space while playing on a grid. Your character should be able to target the swarm.
To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If you can trace a line that doesn’t pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision—such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog—then there is line of sight.
That's it. You can't have line of sight from your space to another space and still be within your space. It's strictly for seeing from one space to another.
Incorrect. That is a rule for determining whether "there is a line of sight between two spaces", which means it does not apply to looking from your own space to your own space.
This doesn't mean there is or isn't line of sight. It just means that the rule doesn't answer whether there's line of sight, and the DM is expected to use their own judgment.
And I have a new scenario to think about: your character and a swarm occupying the same space while playing on a grid. Your character should be able to target the swarm.
I would like to point out that this is not exactly an accurate comparison because even when a swarm is sharing the same space as me, it is physically distinct from me. It's a thing separate from me. Simply put, I'm here, and it's there, even if it is all around me. There is a line of sight that can be drawn between us.
The Sage Advice Compendium has a question on the subject and may not refers to the Line of Sight rules.
The frightened condition says “while the source of its fear is within line of sight.” Does that mean you have disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks even if the source is invisible but you have a clear line to its space?
No. If you can’t see something, it’s not within your line of sight. Speaking of “line of sight,” the game uses the English meaning of the term, which has no special meaning in the rules.
This Sage Advice explanation is simply wrong. It happens.
So line of sight would have no special meaning in the rules, but Line of Sight rules for grid play is optional rules a DM can use and don't really address same space determination. But as DM i would consider two creatures sharing the same space with be within line of sight of each other both in core rules and Line of Sight grid play optional rules.
Same opinion here.
And I have a new scenario to think about: your character and a swarm occupying the same space while playing on a grid. Your character should be able to target the swarm.
EDIT: rewording.
This is not the best interpretation.
If a rule or feature explicitly uses the phrase "line of sight" then you use the rule for Line of Sight. If instead the feature uses some other phrase such as "a creature that you can see" then the Line-of-Sight rules are only one factor which might come into play in order to determine this -- as mentioned earlier, other factors include such concepts as Blinded, Invisible or Heavily Obscured. These terms and concepts are not interchangeable -- they each have their own rules associated with them. It is always important to pay attention to the exact terminology that is used and to apply the correct rules in response to the chosen wording. The mindset of "that's the same thing" or "you know what I mean" leads to inaccuracies.
In the case where two creatures or a swarm occupy the same space, you do not have Line of Sight as per the definition for Line of Sight, but you also typically do not actually need Line of Sight to your own location in order to see something there since there won't be any physical obstacles or other vision blocking effects between you and your own location, so the Line of Sight rule just doesn't apply. If there is some very close quarters physical obstruction or vision blocking effect in play such as wearing opaque glasses or standing in thick fog or something, then essentially you just have the Blinded condition and that's the cause of your inability to see something within your own location, not a Line-of-Sight interruption.
This distinction is very important when properly adjudicating the effect of Darkness, for example. Darkness obscures your vision from being able to see anything that's within the darkened area because it creates a Heavily Obscured area, but it does not actually block your Line of Sight since there is a precise definition for Line of Sight which involves objects or effects which "block" vision.
Anyway, the point is, being frightened of yourself has no effect since you do not have Line-of-Sight to yourself, even if you actually can see yourself.
No, any creature that produces a “fear” effect will always automatically succeed at not being affected by their own “fear” affect.
It they did not, then for years any creature that has/had a “fear” effect would have need for a save against it’s own effect.
[ even monster lair effects would cause the home monster to have to make a save against it’s own defenses and that starts to boarder on “unintended” mechanics .]
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
And I have a new scenario to think about: your character and a swarm occupying the same space while playing on a grid. Your character should be able to target the swarm.
I would like to point out that this is not exactly an accurate comparison because even when a swarm is sharing the same space as me, it is physically distinct from me. It's a thing separate from me. Simply put, I'm here, and it's there, even if it is all around me. There is a line of sight that can be drawn between us.
And I agree with you.
My scenario was just an example in case it helped with the LoS discussion. Sorry if it wasn't very useful :(
There is no grey area. It isn't possible to move closer to yourself. Not normally. Not while frightened. Never.
Being frightened of yourself doesn't and can't impair your movement.
As the saying goes... When you try to run from your problems, but the problem is you, there you are.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
No, any creature that produces a “fear” effect will always automatically succeed at not being affected by their own “fear” affect.
It they did not, then for years any creature that has/had a “fear” effect would have need for a save against it’s own effect.
[ even monster lair effects would cause the home monster to have to make a save against it’s own defenses and that starts to boarder on “unintended” mechanics .]
that usually dont happens because their effects has a clause saying "any creature it chooses" or "any enemy on X area" which prevents the suer to fall for its own effect, but in Mass Fear from the goomstalker is not the case, it didnt say anything like that
There is no grey area. It isn't possible to move closer to yourself. Not normally. Not while frightened. Never.
Being frightened of yourself doesn't and can't impair your movement.
As the saying goes... When you try to run from your problems, but the problem is you, there you are.
but at the same time you cant prove the opposite, if you are afraid of yourself, you cant get near yourself, but also, moving doesnt mean neither that you are moving away, since you also cant move away from you... is a paradox since you cant move away nor close to yourself, which as per rules meaning, is needed to know if you move closer or away from the source of the fear, so it is a grey area in teh rules since for the start they didnt specify, so is up to the dm, some would say you are always moving closer, others would say the opposite
And I have a new scenario to think about: your character and a swarm occupying the same space while playing on a grid. Your character should be able to target the swarm.
I would like to point out that this is not exactly an accurate comparison because even when a swarm is sharing the same space as me, it is physically distinct from me. It's a thing separate from me. Simply put, I'm here, and it's there, even if it is all around me. There is a line of sight that can be drawn between us.
And I agree with you.
My scenario was just an example in case it helped with the LoS discussion. Sorry if it wasn’t very useful :(
i loved that explanation and that explanation and the sage advice one prove my theory: the line of sight rule explains HOW to see if a creature is within line of sight when you are trying to make a line between TWO PLACES ( "To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces"), but that rule didnt define when is the same place, which then is not the case here, we are determining if you have a line of sight within the same place, not two places, which by the ruling, unless the area is heavily obscured, or your creature is blinded, you are always able to see any place in yur place n a grid, which means, yeah, same as being able of targeting a swarm-type creature that is in your space, you can see yourself at all times, by language and by RAW
The phrase "Line of Sight" includes the word "Line". In mathematics, in order to create a line, there must be at least two points in space. It is not possible to draw a straight line from one point to itself. Therefore, you do not, and you cannot have Line of Sight to yourself or to your own location.
Because of this, in this situation you do not have Line of Sight to the source of your fear. You also can never move closer to the source of your fear. So, you could have the Frightened Condition, but it would have no effect on you.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
So... what's the point of the question if the result is that nothing happens either way?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
the result is you can scare yourself and get the frightened condition on yourself, you being the source of your fear, until the start of your next turn. Do that on your 1st attack on your turn and you screw yourself for the rest of the turn: disadvantage on attack rolls and abiliy checks while you have the source of your fear within line of sight, which is always unless you blind yourself, because by RAW, you can see yourself (in raw, it doesnt matter that yous ay something like "i look away from it", is just considered that you CAN look at it from where you are at the moment) and ¿can't move? (usually cant move towards the source of your fear, is debatable if you could or couldnt move towards yourself at all times or away from yourself at all times, is a grey area of the rules for that part)
I actually already asked crawford for this because is kinda a weird ruling and kinda confusing, but at least as how is written and by RAW, you do trigger the save and can scare yourself from yourself
Remember, for this analysis, the important information to determine is not whether or not you can see yourself, it's whether or not you have line of sight to your own location. This is adjudicated by a different rule, which is found in the DMG.
For those who missed it, this rule was already posted, and the analysis was already solved by Plaguescarred earlier in this thread:
By this definition, it is not possible to have Line of Sight to your own location and therefore you cannot be frightened of yourself. Or more precisely, you can be, but the Frightened Condition has no effect on you if you are the source of your own fear.
"To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces..."
Obviously, you are in your own space. How do you determine if you have line of sight to your own space? All rules in the game for line of sight assume two points at some distance from each other, with the possibility of something potentially interrupting that line. I'm not aware of any rule in the game that talks about line of sight from a point to itself.
Take your pick.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
One thing is sure, you should be able to choose yourself with effect targeting a creature you can see, unless you're Blinded, Invisible or in an Heavily Obscured area.
how about playing without a grid ¿can you see yourself?
Also, there is a problem with that ruling: it is say "To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space"
And actually then you can see yourself by the definition of the Line of sight rule, you CAN pick any corner from your position and make a line between that point to any other corner or to yourself and your space, meaning YOU DO have yourself within your line of sight. Nowhere it estates that you cannot do the line to yourself, it doenst say "to another place that isnt the origin point" or something like that. You can choose any corner and make the line to you, to your position, to any other corner of the place in the grid and there is nothing obstructing the view to yourself from that perspective, you can even make the line to the same point, without obstruction (single point without moving the line) meaning there is a line of sight at all times unless you are blinded
I don't believe this is true.
If the ranger is within the radius of the effect, then they're subject to it. There's no exception to this. The issue is what does it actually mean. The feature imposes the Frightened condition, and that comes with rules.
Since you are the source, the second bullet must be moot. No matter how you move, you're literally as close as mechanically possible and your distance from the source never changes. As for the first point, we need to define line of sight.
Fortunately, the DMG has us covered.
That's it. You can't have line of sight from your space to another space and still be within your space. It's strictly for seeing from one space to another.
Mechanically, while the ranger is subject to the effect, it doesn't actually do anything. Narratively, your power momentarily scares you.
This is also supported by the spellcasting rules:
So line of sight would have no special meaning in the rules, but Line of Sight rules for grid play is optional rules a DM can use and don't really address same space determination. But as DM i would consider two creatures sharing the same space with be within line of sight of each other both in core rules and Line of Sight grid play optional rules.
Same opinion here.
And I have a new scenario to think about: your character and a swarm occupying the same space while playing on a grid. Your character should be able to target the swarm.
EDIT: rewording.
Let’s roast the class whose capstone feature is upgrading their bonus damage die from a d6 to a d10…
Incorrect. That is a rule for determining whether "there is a line of sight between two spaces", which means it does not apply to looking from your own space to your own space.
This doesn't mean there is or isn't line of sight. It just means that the rule doesn't answer whether there's line of sight, and the DM is expected to use their own judgment.
I would like to point out that this is not exactly an accurate comparison because even when a swarm is sharing the same space as me, it is physically distinct from me. It's a thing separate from me. Simply put, I'm here, and it's there, even if it is all around me. There is a line of sight that can be drawn between us.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
This Sage Advice explanation is simply wrong. It happens.
This is not the best interpretation.
If a rule or feature explicitly uses the phrase "line of sight" then you use the rule for Line of Sight. If instead the feature uses some other phrase such as "a creature that you can see" then the Line-of-Sight rules are only one factor which might come into play in order to determine this -- as mentioned earlier, other factors include such concepts as Blinded, Invisible or Heavily Obscured. These terms and concepts are not interchangeable -- they each have their own rules associated with them. It is always important to pay attention to the exact terminology that is used and to apply the correct rules in response to the chosen wording. The mindset of "that's the same thing" or "you know what I mean" leads to inaccuracies.
In the case where two creatures or a swarm occupy the same space, you do not have Line of Sight as per the definition for Line of Sight, but you also typically do not actually need Line of Sight to your own location in order to see something there since there won't be any physical obstacles or other vision blocking effects between you and your own location, so the Line of Sight rule just doesn't apply. If there is some very close quarters physical obstruction or vision blocking effect in play such as wearing opaque glasses or standing in thick fog or something, then essentially you just have the Blinded condition and that's the cause of your inability to see something within your own location, not a Line-of-Sight interruption.
This distinction is very important when properly adjudicating the effect of Darkness, for example. Darkness obscures your vision from being able to see anything that's within the darkened area because it creates a Heavily Obscured area, but it does not actually block your Line of Sight since there is a precise definition for Line of Sight which involves objects or effects which "block" vision.
Anyway, the point is, being frightened of yourself has no effect since you do not have Line-of-Sight to yourself, even if you actually can see yourself.
No, any creature that produces a “fear” effect will always automatically succeed at not being affected by their own “fear” affect.
It they did not, then for years any creature that has/had a “fear” effect would have need for a save against it’s own effect.
[ even monster lair effects would cause the home monster to have to make a save against it’s own defenses and that starts to boarder on “unintended” mechanics .]
" Darkvision doesn’t work in Magical darkness, and if something is magical, Never Trust it acts the same way as a non-magical version of that same thing!”- Discotech Mage over a cup of joe.
And I agree with you.
My scenario was just an example in case it helped with the LoS discussion. Sorry if it wasn't very useful :(
There is no grey area. It isn't possible to move closer to yourself. Not normally. Not while frightened. Never.
Being frightened of yourself doesn't and can't impair your movement.
As the saying goes... When you try to run from your problems, but the problem is you, there you are.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
that usually dont happens because their effects has a clause saying "any creature it chooses" or "any enemy on X area" which prevents the suer to fall for its own effect, but in Mass Fear from the goomstalker is not the case, it didnt say anything like that
but at the same time you cant prove the opposite, if you are afraid of yourself, you cant get near yourself, but also, moving doesnt mean neither that you are moving away, since you also cant move away from you... is a paradox since you cant move away nor close to yourself, which as per rules meaning, is needed to know if you move closer or away from the source of the fear, so it is a grey area in teh rules since for the start they didnt specify, so is up to the dm, some would say you are always moving closer, others would say the opposite
i loved that explanation and that explanation and the sage advice one prove my theory: the line of sight rule explains HOW to see if a creature is within line of sight when you are trying to make a line between TWO PLACES ( "To determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces"), but that rule didnt define when is the same place, which then is not the case here, we are determining if you have a line of sight within the same place, not two places, which by the ruling, unless the area is heavily obscured, or your creature is blinded, you are always able to see any place in yur place n a grid, which means, yeah, same as being able of targeting a swarm-type creature that is in your space, you can see yourself at all times, by language and by RAW
The phrase "Line of Sight" includes the word "Line". In mathematics, in order to create a line, there must be at least two points in space. It is not possible to draw a straight line from one point to itself. Therefore, you do not, and you cannot have Line of Sight to yourself or to your own location.
Because of this, in this situation you do not have Line of Sight to the source of your fear. You also can never move closer to the source of your fear. So, you could have the Frightened Condition, but it would have no effect on you.