I was wondering which focus does tell you that it doesn’t need to be held? If the position some people hold is that nothing contradicts the general rule about holding a focus in the description of emblem, even though the general rule states exceptions exist, I wonder what you think those exceptions that the general rule mentions are?
As I already discussed, but will make clear as I can here, as I read the rules on material components
This rule:
To use a Component Pouch, you must have a hand free to reach into it, and to use a Spellcasting Focus, you must hold it unless its description says otherwise (see chapter 6 for descriptions).
does not invalidate this rule:
The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.
I think people have been confusing the held part (which I admitted earlier in the discussion I missed) with the part that still requires a hand free to access the material component, which has been substituted with a spellcasting focus.
If you're asking a different question, then I apologize, just trying to make it clear as to what I meant.
I know this won't convince most anyone to change their mind. That's not how the internet works.
But I think it's pretty obvious that a holy symbol on a shield, in effect, makes the shield a focus that you hold (and works like holding a wand or whatever, including being used for S components).
First, it's "borne on" a shield. Meaning if I pick up the shield, I pick up the symbol, too. Like how if I bear my luggage on a luggage cart, then I'm using the luggage cart to carry it.
Second, because it'd be pointless to put it on a shield if this wasn't true. Yeah, that's just an implication, but it makes the intention pretty clear, and when the text makes the intention clear, it's RAW correctly implementing RAI.
Now, is that a very technical explanation? No, it's putting on awful lot of weight on the "borne on" phrase. They could have cleared this up with a whole extra sentence somewhere. Thing is, like half the rules in the game work like this (and that would be a whole lot of extra sentences). You'd think players would be used to it by now. And most players are used to it and get it intuitively, because most players are turned off by thorough technical explanations and rule-lawyer-y writing. As a fellow somewhat-neurodivergent person, I understand your pain, but I also accept it.
Edit: footnotes!
"Borne on" a tabard? Yeah, use it as a focus by wearing it! Since it's not in a hand, there's no "same hand" for S components, so you still need a free hand for those.
"Borne on" a fabric standard, on the end of a giant pole? If you're holding the pole, you're holding the focus! Pretty cool, huh? And since it's in a hand, you can do S components with it too! (But it's not a weapon...well, I guess you could use a battle standard as an improvised weapon, but it doesn't count as a spear by RAW...)
I am only asking about M components. Let’s not confuse the issue. S components have no bearing on this question.
I want to know which descriptions of a focus tell you it works to replace M components without being held. What in the description of a focus removes the requirement that it is held?
The general rule implies there are exceptions. What are they? If you wear an amulet do you also need to hold it?
I am only asking about M components. Let’s not confuse the issue. S components have no bearing on this question.
I want to know which descriptions of a focus tell you it works to replace M components without being held. What in the description of a focus removes the requirement that it is held?
The general rule implies there are exceptions. What are they? If you wear an amulet do you also need to hold it?
You do not need to hold it but you still need a free hand to access it, is how I read it.
Ok. That is wrong. If the rules for a focus don’t supersede the rules for individual components, then you are saying you need the components, not a focus or pouch. The first part you quoted only applies to the listed components in the spell.
Ok. That is wrong. If the rules for a focus don’t supersede the rules for individual components, then you are saying you need the components, not a focus or pouch. The first part you quoted only applies to the listed components in the spell.
Where does a focus say it supersedes any rule? the rules say the spellcasting focus is a substitution for the material (not the material component).
If a spell doesn’t consume its materials and doesn’t specify a cost for them, a spellcaster can use a Component Pouch (see chapter 6) instead of providing the materials specified in the spell, or the spellcaster can substitute a Spellcasting Focus if the caster has a feature that allows that substitution.
Note that the Spellcasting Focus is a substitute of the Materials specified, it does nothing beyond that. So the spellcasting focus still must fulfil the other parts of the Material Component, which includes the part of the free hand requirement.
And then they explain how they are used. And it is different from how the components themselves are used.
to put it bluntly, that difference in how they are used is the exception that lets them be used differently.
If you are saying this part:
To use a Component Pouch, you must have a hand free to reach into it, and to use a Spellcasting Focus, you must hold it unless its description says otherwise (see chapter 6 for descriptions).
overrules this part:
These materials aren’t consumed by the spell unless the spell’s description states otherwise. The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them, but it can be the same hand used to perform Somatic components, if any.
Then the hand used on a spellcasting focus or a component pouch can not be used to perform a somatic component, ever. Because the part that allows using a somatic component is only listed under the earlier rule for supplying the material and you are saying that is explicitly requiring said material.
This clearly doesn't work with a component pouch to start with, a component pouch is described as:
A Component Pouch is watertight and filled with compartments that hold all the free Material components of your spells.
In other words a component pouch is considered to fulfil the requirements because it, itself has the required component in it.
So if the usage of a component pouch is not considered to over-ride the rule despite it also having it's usage listed separately, why would it be untrue for a spellcasting focus? It's basically cherry-picking at that point and inconsistent.
Either A) component pouch and spellcasting focus do not take the place of the material, thus neither can benefit from using the same hand as a somatic component (you need 2 free hands basically) even tho the description of a component pouch literally states it has the free material components of your spells.
or
B) a component pouch and spellcasting focus physically replace the material specified, thus both can benefit from using the same hand as a somatic component
If you are saying that the requirement to hold a focus is separate from the requirement to access it (because it the rules for a focus do not supersede "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them") then you are saying that you need two free hands to use a focus: one to hold it and the other to access it. There is no text that says they may be the same hand, like there is for completing S components.
If you are saying that the requirement to hold a focus is separate from the requirement to access it (because it the rules for a focus do not supersede "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them") then you are saying that you need two free hands to use a focus: one to hold it and the other to access it. There is no text that says they may be the same hand, like there is for completing S components.
That literally makes no sense to me.
no, I am saying the hand that holds it has access too it. So it requires only one hand and that hand can also fulfil the somatic requirement. This is the only way for a held spellcasting focus to only use one hand, else wise a held spellcasting focus blocks the hand that is holding it from performing a somatic component and all held spellcasting focus and component pouches are inherently weaker/worse than any spellcasting focus that is worn or borne on a shield.
This was much better written in the 2014 version where it was explicitly stated, compared to the 2024 version where it's implicitly inferred.
There is no text that says that the hand that holds a focus meets the criteria for accessing the component. Unless, did I miss that somewhere? Or unless you consider that holding the focus is the exception to that requirement: that using the thing the way the game tells you to use it is the way the game expects you to use it.
If the requirement to access components is different from the requirement to hold a focus, then they really must be different requirements. So both are in place. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say they overlap sometimes and are different requirements other times.
[...] If you wear an amulet do you also need to hold it?
In my opinion, no. Maybe an example is the best way to explain myself.
A cleric wearing an Amulet could cast Light while wielding, for example, two swords.
Then why is it different for bearing an emblem? That is what the crux of my position boils down to.
For me, if a Cleric has an Emblem borne on fabric, such as a tabard, they could also cast Light in the same scenario as before, without needing to use their hands.
I chose the Amulet instead of the Emblem just to offer another option :D As I stated before:
An Amulet worn is equivalent to an Emblem borne on fabric.
An Amulet held is equivalent to an Emblem on a held Shield.
There is no text that says that the hand that holds a focus meets the criteria for accessing the component. Unless, did I miss that somewhere? Or unless you consider that holding the focus is the exception to that requirement: that using the thing the way the game tells you to use it is the way the game expects you to use it.
If the requirement to access components is different from the requirement to hold a focus, then they really must be different requirements. So both are in place. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say they overlap sometimes and are different requirements other times.
You didn't miss it, it is inferred and I will admit that, but it makes no sense that a hand holding something is incapable of freely interacting with said item already.
Personally I prefer the 2014 version, just so much easier but it left a requirement that spellcasting focus must be held, there was no exception on that even if they could else wise be worn or if a shield was bearing the holy symbol. I suspect the 2024 to some degree is trying to remove the free hand requirement but it doesn't, since the spellcasting focus takes place of the materials specified (instead of fulfilling the material component as it did in 2014). The 2024 version is basically a complete mess and failed to fix the issue it set out too fix, in my opinion it's in deep need of errata and fixing.
For me, if a Cleric has an Emblem borne on fabric, such as a tabard, they could also cast Light in the same scenario as before, without needing to use their hands.
I chose the Amulet instead of the Emblem just to offer another option :D As I stated before:
An Amulet worn is equivalent to an Emblem borne on fabric.
An Amulet held is equivalent to an Emblem on a held Shield.
I think that's all correct. (Well, I think an Amulet worn is equivalent to a Emblem borne on a tabard or such, which isn't the only way it could be borne on fabric.)
For me, if a Cleric has an Emblem borne on fabric, such as a tabard, they could also cast Light in the same scenario as before, without needing to use their hands.
I chose the Amulet instead of the Emblem just to offer another option :D As I stated before:
An Amulet worn is equivalent to an Emblem borne on fabric.
An Amulet held is equivalent to an Emblem on a held Shield.
I think that's all correct. (Well, I think an Amulet worn is equivalent to a Emblem borne on a tabard or such, which isn't the only way it could be borne on fabric.)
Tarodnet, you are using different requirements for emblems borne in different places? That is the thing that I don’t follow. Wearing the emblem on a tabard is enough but not for a shield? For the shield you must hold it? I don’t see what in the rules makes that distinction.
There is no text that says that the hand that holds a focus meets the criteria for accessing the component. Unless, did I miss that somewhere? Or unless you consider that holding the focus is the exception to that requirement: that using the thing the way the game tells you to use it is the way the game expects you to use it.
If the requirement to access components is different from the requirement to hold a focus, then they really must be different requirements. So both are in place. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say they overlap sometimes and are different requirements other times.
You didn't miss it, it is inferred and I will admit that, but it makes no sense that a hand holding something is incapable of freely interacting with said item already.
I mean, i certainly did offer a different, simpler reading: that the way you use a focus replaces the way you use components: you only need to meet the requirement of the focus — hold it unless otherwise stated (and an emblem states that bearing it is enough).
Tarodnet, you are using different requirements for emblems borne in different places? That is the thing that I don’t follow. Wearing the emblem on a tabard is enough but not for a shield? For the shield you must hold it? I don’t see what in the rules makes that distinction.
Well... I'm just trying to use common sense. According to the book, a Holy Symbol needs to be held, worn, or borne on fabric (such as a tabard or banner) or a Shield:
Borne on a tabard <--- you need to wear the tabard when casting with M
Borne on a banner <--- you need to hold the banner when casting with M
Borne on a Shield <--- you need to hold the Shield when casting with M
Following the previous example, but now using a Shield, a Cleric could cast Light with a sword in one hand and the Shield with the Emblem in the other.
So, to me, it's implicit that you need to hold a Shield. Same goes for wearing the tabard.
As I already discussed, but will make clear as I can here, as I read the rules on material components
This rule:
does not invalidate this rule:
I think people have been confusing the held part (which I admitted earlier in the discussion I missed) with the part that still requires a hand free to access the material component, which has been substituted with a spellcasting focus.
If you're asking a different question, then I apologize, just trying to make it clear as to what I meant.
I know this won't convince most anyone to change their mind. That's not how the internet works.
But I think it's pretty obvious that a holy symbol on a shield, in effect, makes the shield a focus that you hold (and works like holding a wand or whatever, including being used for S components).
Now, is that a very technical explanation? No, it's putting on awful lot of weight on the "borne on" phrase. They could have cleared this up with a whole extra sentence somewhere. Thing is, like half the rules in the game work like this (and that would be a whole lot of extra sentences). You'd think players would be used to it by now. And most players are used to it and get it intuitively, because most players are turned off by thorough technical explanations and rule-lawyer-y writing. As a fellow somewhat-neurodivergent person, I understand your pain, but I also accept it.
Edit: footnotes!
I am only asking about M components. Let’s not confuse the issue. S components have no bearing on this question.
I want to know which descriptions of a focus tell you it works to replace M components without being held. What in the description of a focus removes the requirement that it is held?
The general rule implies there are exceptions. What are they?
If you wear an amulet do you also need to hold it?
You do not need to hold it but you still need a free hand to access it, is how I read it.
Ok. That is wrong. If the rules for a focus don’t supersede the rules for individual components, then you are saying you need the components, not a focus or pouch. The first part you quoted only applies to the listed components in the spell.
Where does a focus say it supersedes any rule? the rules say the spellcasting focus is a substitution for the material (not the material component).
Note that the Spellcasting Focus is a substitute of the Materials specified, it does nothing beyond that. So the spellcasting focus still must fulfil the other parts of the Material Component, which includes the part of the free hand requirement.
And then they explain how they are used. And it is different from how the components themselves are used.
to put it bluntly, that difference in how they are used is the exception that lets them be used differently.
A worn Amulet is one example, isn't it?
In my opinion, no. Maybe an example is the best way to explain myself.
A cleric wearing an Amulet could cast Light while wielding, for example, two swords.
If you are saying this part:
overrules this part:
Then the hand used on a spellcasting focus or a component pouch can not be used to perform a somatic component, ever. Because the part that allows using a somatic component is only listed under the earlier rule for supplying the material and you are saying that is explicitly requiring said material.
This clearly doesn't work with a component pouch to start with, a component pouch is described as:
In other words a component pouch is considered to fulfil the requirements because it, itself has the required component in it.
So if the usage of a component pouch is not considered to over-ride the rule despite it also having it's usage listed separately, why would it be untrue for a spellcasting focus? It's basically cherry-picking at that point and inconsistent.
Either A) component pouch and spellcasting focus do not take the place of the material, thus neither can benefit from using the same hand as a somatic component (you need 2 free hands basically) even tho the description of a component pouch literally states it has the free material components of your spells.
or
B) a component pouch and spellcasting focus physically replace the material specified, thus both can benefit from using the same hand as a somatic component
To me, A makes literally no sense at all.
If you are saying that the requirement to hold a focus is separate from the requirement to access it (because it the rules for a focus do not supersede "The spellcaster must have a hand free to access them") then you are saying that you need two free hands to use a focus: one to hold it and the other to access it. There is no text that says they may be the same hand, like there is for completing S components.
That literally makes no sense to me.
Then why is it different for bearing an emblem? That is what the crux of my position boils down to.
no, I am saying the hand that holds it has access too it. So it requires only one hand and that hand can also fulfil the somatic requirement. This is the only way for a held spellcasting focus to only use one hand, else wise a held spellcasting focus blocks the hand that is holding it from performing a somatic component and all held spellcasting focus and component pouches are inherently weaker/worse than any spellcasting focus that is worn or borne on a shield.
This was much better written in the 2014 version where it was explicitly stated, compared to the 2024 version where it's implicitly inferred.
There is no text that says that the hand that holds a focus meets the criteria for accessing the component. Unless, did I miss that somewhere? Or unless you consider that holding the focus is the exception to that requirement: that using the thing the way the game tells you to use it is the way the game expects you to use it.
If the requirement to access components is different from the requirement to hold a focus, then they really must be different requirements. So both are in place. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't say they overlap sometimes and are different requirements other times.
For me, if a Cleric has an Emblem borne on fabric, such as a tabard, they could also cast Light in the same scenario as before, without needing to use their hands.
I chose the Amulet instead of the Emblem just to offer another option :D As I stated before:
You didn't miss it, it is inferred and I will admit that, but it makes no sense that a hand holding something is incapable of freely interacting with said item already.
Personally I prefer the 2014 version, just so much easier but it left a requirement that spellcasting focus must be held, there was no exception on that even if they could else wise be worn or if a shield was bearing the holy symbol. I suspect the 2024 to some degree is trying to remove the free hand requirement but it doesn't, since the spellcasting focus takes place of the materials specified (instead of fulfilling the material component as it did in 2014). The 2024 version is basically a complete mess and failed to fix the issue it set out too fix, in my opinion it's in deep need of errata and fixing.
I think that's all correct. (Well, I think an Amulet worn is equivalent to a Emblem borne on a tabard or such, which isn't the only way it could be borne on fabric.)
Agreed. It was a simplification, yes.
Tarodnet, you are using different requirements for emblems borne in different places? That is the thing that I don’t follow. Wearing the emblem on a tabard is enough but not for a shield? For the shield you must hold it? I don’t see what in the rules makes that distinction.
I mean, i certainly did offer a different, simpler reading: that the way you use a focus replaces the way you use components: you only need to meet the requirement of the focus — hold it unless otherwise stated (and an emblem states that bearing it is enough).
Well... I'm just trying to use common sense. According to the book, a Holy Symbol needs to be held, worn, or borne on fabric (such as a tabard or banner) or a Shield:
Following the previous example, but now using a Shield, a Cleric could cast Light with a sword in one hand and the Shield with the Emblem in the other.
So, to me, it's implicit that you need to hold a Shield. Same goes for wearing the tabard.