Reading the last post, basically and generally speaking, it seems to me that cantrips are known and always prepared, while level 1+ spells can be prepared based on your class, as summarized in the Spell Preparation by Class table.
Additionally, certain features might give you spells that are always prepared.
Reading the last post, basically and generally speaking, it seems to me that cantrips are known and always prepared, while level 1+ spells can be prepared based on your class, as summarized in the Spell Preparation by Class table.
Additionally, certain features might give you spells that are always prepared.
This is only true when the text explicitly says so -- there is no general rule which defines cantrips or leveled spells in this way. It just so happens that the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features are generally designed this way but there are traits, Feats and features which provide exceptions to this pattern.
Okay, so I know that this chain is pretty old, but I'm looking for guidance on the following and this is the only conversation I've seen that seems thoughtful along these lines:
Warlock pact of the tome allows me to take starry wisp, to which by level 2 I also apply repelling and agonizing blast. Then I take 3 levels of Druid and subclass Moon. Now the tome says I choose 3 cantrips/spells that I don't have prepared, but the book came first and the subclass feature granted me starry wisp. So now can I cast starry wisp amplified by agonizing and repelling blast in beast form? And if I later level druid to 7 and take potent spellcasting, can I also apply my wisdom modifier to the damage?
I guess the gist of this question is whether or not a specific casting of a spell/cantrip is class specific, and if the attainment of a specific cantrip that overlaps a current somehow erases the previous version...
- Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast apply to "your known Warlock cantrips". - Pact of the Tome says a cantrip you choose, for example Starry Wisp, counts as a Warlock spell for you. - Starry Wisp is by default a Bard and Druid spell. - Because of Pact of the Tome, the cantrip counts as a Bard, Druid, and Warlock spell.
Now, based on the Multiclassing rules, I'd say then you would have two copies of Starry Wisp prepared, and you can cast the cantrip as a Warlock or as a Druid:
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
And according to this SAC answer:
Which of a character’s spells count as class spells? For example, if I’m playing a Sorcerer, which of my character’s spells are Sorcerer spells?
A class’s spell list specifies the spells that belong to the class. For example, a Sorcerer spell is a spell on the Sorcerer spell list, and if a Sorcerer knows spells that aren’t on that list, those spells aren’t Sorcerer spells unless a feature says otherwise.
Then, for your Druid/Warlock, Starry Wisp counts as a Warlock spell, so you can apply Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast regardless of whether you cast it as a Warlock or a Druid.
For the same reason, you could apply Potent Spellcasting too in both cases because it's also a Druid cantrip:
Potent Spellcasting. Add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any Druid cantrip.
EDIT: some recent threads related to what counts as a class spell:
Also, DrydinXal, if it's somehow helpful to you, I created a couple of threads in the past about Agonizing Blast / Potent Cantrip / Potent Spellcasting, and stacking:
My understanding is that if you have the same spell from multiple sources, you have to pick which source when you cast the spell. You would attach the effects based on your choice of source. So while our Druid/Warlock could either use Agonizing/Repelling Blast or Potent Spellcasting, they couldn't combine all three onto the same spell.
Okay, so I know that this chain is pretty old, but I'm looking for guidance on the following and this is the only conversation I've seen that seems thoughtful along these lines:
Warlock pact of the tome allows me to take starry wisp, to which by level 2 I also apply repelling and agonizing blast. Then I take 3 levels of Druid and subclass Moon. Now the tome says I choose 3 cantrips/spells that I don't have prepared, but the book came first and the subclass feature granted me starry wisp. So now can I cast starry wisp amplified by agonizing and repelling blast in beast form? And if I later level druid to 7 and take potent spellcasting, can I also apply my wisdom modifier to the damage?
I guess the gist of this question is whether or not a specific casting of a spell/cantrip is class specific, and if the attainment of a specific cantrip that overlaps a current somehow erases the previous version...
A big part of this proposed interaction relies heavily on whether or not the spells in question are considered to be "known" spells and how strictly you are interpreting the text for these Features with respect to "known" spells.
In my opinion, The Warlock's Pact of the Tome Eldritch Invocation does not cause the chosen cantrips to become "known" cantrips. They are merely "always prepared" cantrips conditional upon remaining in possession of the Pact of the Tome's Book of Shadows. As such, if you acquire access to the Starry Wisp cantrip via Pact of the Tome, you cannot apply the Agonizing Blast or Repelling Blast Eldritch Invocation effects to the casting of that cantrip.
Pact of the Tome:
Cantrips and Rituals. When the book appears, choose three cantrips, and choose two level 1 spells that have the Ritual tag. The spells can be from any class’s spell list, and they must be spells you don’t already have prepared. While the book is on your person, you have the chosen spells prepared, and they function as Warlock spells for you.
Agonizing Blast:
Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that deals damage.
Repelling Blast:
Choose one of your known Warlock cantrips that requires an attack roll.
Ok, now, if for some reason the DM interprets the above texts loosely and decides that those features actually DO interact, then we can move on to the next portion of your question -- what happens when subsequently the Druid (3) Circle of the Moon subclass Feature also causes the Starry Wisp cantrip to become "always prepared".
The short answer: This is fine. The cantrip is still just "always prepared" for the purposes of additional Feature interactions -- it really doesn't matter how it became always prepared. So, if the first portion of the interaction was allowed above, then upon reaching Druid (3) Circle of the Moon you would indeed be able to cast the spell as you were already able to cast it, but while in beast form:
In addition, you can cast the spells from this feature while you're in a Wild Shape form.
This ability is not contingent upon anything -- you can do this because this Feature says that you can.
Lastly, when it comes to the Druid (7) Elemental Fury / Potent Spellcasting Feature, the same idea applies:
Potent Spellcasting. Add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any Druid cantrip.
A Druid cantrip is simply any cantrip that appears on the Druid Spell List (or any other cantrip that "counts as" a Druid cantrip for you). Starry Wisp appears on the Druid Spell List so this is a Druid cantrip. It doesn't matter how that Druid cantrip is cast -- this ability applies because this Feature says that it does.
Now, based on the Multiclassing rules, I'd say then you would have two copies of Starry Wisp prepared, and you can cast the cantrip as a Warlock or as a Druid:
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
No. This portion of the analysis is incorrect.
When it comes to casting spells, the Multiclassing rules ONLY apply to situations where the Spellcasting Class Feature is being used to prepare the spells. In this example, those Features are not used, so this Multiclassing rule does not apply. Instead, the Warlock Pact of the Tome Eldritch Invocation Feature causes the cantrip to become "always prepared" and also the Druid (Circle of the Moon) Circle of the Moon Spells Feature causes the cantrip to become "always prepared". When both Features are active, this is just redundant. The spell is not somehow prepared twice or anything like that. It's just a spell that you have "always prepared" for a couple of different reasons, but neither of those reasons were due to preparing it with the Warlock Pact Magic Class Feature or the Druid Spellcasting Class Feature.
As it turns out, when you do eventually decide to cast the spell, you will have to use a Spellcasting Class Feature (or Pact Magic Class Feature) to do so since neither of the above Features provided its own method for casting it. When you do so, you can use either your Warlock Pact Magic Class Feature or your Druid Spellcasting Class Feature since the spell is a Druid spell and has also become a Warlock spell and the spell is always prepared in your mind. For the above interactions, it doesn't matter which of these two Features you decide to use when casting the spell (in other words, it doesn't matter if you cast it "as a" Warlock or "as a" Druid) since these Features were not used to prepare it, and the 4 other Features which potentially interact with this casting of the spell (Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Circle of the Moon Spells and Elemental Fury / Potent Spellcasting) only care about whether or not the spell is:
-- A Warlock cantrip with some additional requirements.
-- A spell that is listed in the Circle of the Moon Spells feature to which you currently have access.
-- A Druid cantrip.
All of these requirements are met.
As mentioned at the top of this post, the only potential problem with this full interaction that has been proposed is whether or not this particular cantrip in this particular situation is "known".
My understanding is that if you have the same spell from multiple sources, you have to pick which source when you cast the spell. You would attach the effects based on your choice of source. So while our Druid/Warlock could either use Agonizing/Repelling Blast or Potent Spellcasting, they couldn't combine all three onto the same spell.
Again, this sort of thing is really only true when the spell was prepared with one of your Spellcasting Class Features as per the Multiclassing rules and you are subsequently trying to determine which Spellcasting Class Feature to use in order to cast it. You also have to take note if a Feature (such as a Feat) provides its own method of spellcasting, such as if it allows you to cast the spell without a spell slot by using a particular mental stat as your spellcasting ability just as an example. But even in both of those cases, if you actively have access to some other Feature that only cares about whether or not the spell being cast is a Druid spell, for example, then it doesn't matter how the spell is being cast -- it only matters whether or not the spell appears on the Druid Spell List in that case. The same is true with certain other wording that might exist on other Features that interact with casting spells.
Now, based on the Multiclassing rules, I'd say then you would have two copies of Starry Wisp prepared, and you can cast the cantrip as a Warlock or as a Druid:
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
No. This portion of the analysis is incorrect.
When it comes to casting spells, the Multiclassing rules ONLY apply to situations where the Spellcasting Class Feature is being used to prepare the spells. In this example, those Features are not used, so this Multiclassing rule does not apply. Instead, the Warlock Pact of the Tome Eldritch Invocation Feature causes the cantrip to become "always prepared" and also the Druid (Circle of the Moon) Circle of the Moon Spells Feature causes the cantrip to become "always prepared". When both Features are active, this is just redundant. The spell is not somehow prepared twice or anything like that. It's just a spell that you have "always prepared" for a couple of different reasons, but neither of those reasons were due to preparing it with the Warlock Pact Magic Class Feature or the Druid Spellcasting Class Feature. [...]
Maybe it's not entirely incorrect?
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
But anyway, one way or another, it doesn't change the outcome.
Also, right or not, this is how D&D Beyond handles the proposed Warlock 2 / Druid 3, where it even informs you that you can cast Starry Wispgained thanks to Level 3: Circle of the Moon Spells while Wild Shaped:
Spells Prepared. You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
I'm not sure what you're getting at with this unfortunately. This entire rule that you are quoting does not apply to this situation. It comes from the Multiclassing Rule. That rule only applies when you are attempting to prepare a spell by using your Spellcasting Class Feature and you have more than one such Feature. It does not apply to other ways of preparing a spell.
Chapter 2 -- Creating a Character
. . . Multiclassing
. . . . . . Class Features
When you gain a new level in a class, you get its features for that level . . . Special rules apply to Extra Attack, Spellcasting, and features (such as Unarmored Defense) that give you alternative ways to calculate your Armor Class.
. . . . . . . . . Spellcasting
-- Once you have the Spellcasting feature from more than one class, use the rules below . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . . Spells Prepared.
-- You determine what spells you can prepare for each class individually, as if you were a single-classed member of that class. If you are a level 4 Ranger / level 3 Sorcerer, for example, you can prepare five level 1 Ranger spells, and you can prepare six Sorcerer spells of level 1 or 2 (as well as four Sorcerer cantrips).
Each spell you prepare is associated with one of your classes, and you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell.
I'm also not sure what to be looking for in the screenshot although it wouldn't surprise me if D&D Beyond does not implement this situation correctly -- it is a relatively complex interaction of many rules that is being proposed here.
The only thing that I'm noticing is that Starry Wisp is listed twice. There shouldn't really be any functional difference between those two entries if you click on it and attempt to cast that spell. Is one of those entries causing the spell to be cast with the Warlock Pact Magic class feature and the other causing the spell to be cast with the Druid Spellcasting class feature? If so, that's a bit oversimplified. The reason is because if you gain access to this spell via the Pact of the Tome feature and you were also a low level Druid that did not yet have the Circle of the Moon subclass, you should still be able to use your Druid Spellcasting class feature to cast that spell since the spell is a Druid spell and it is prepared in your mind. The other way around doesn't work though. If you only gained access to this spell via the Circle of the Moon subclass and did not have Pact of the Tome, you would not be able to use your Warlock Pact Magic class feature to cast the spell because the spell is not actually a Warlock spell without the Pact of the Tome making it one.
I agree it's a complex interaction. The screenshot was just to show how D&D Beyond implements the proposed scenario, with the cantrip duplicated and showing the source.
Also, right or not, this is how D&D Beyond handles the proposed Warlock 2 / Druid 3, where it even tells you that you cannot cast Starry Wispgained thanks to Level 3: Circle of the Moon Spells while not Wild Shaped:
I am a little confused. Your screenshot says you can cast the spell while in wild shape form. It does not say that you cannot cast them while not in a Wild Shape form (and I don't believe that is a restriction for single class Circle of Moon Druids).
Reading the last post, basically and generally speaking, it seems to me that cantrips are known and always prepared, while level 1+ spells can be prepared based on your class, as summarized in the Spell Preparation by Class table.
Additionally, certain features might give you spells that are always prepared.
This is only true when the text explicitly says so -- there is no general rule which defines cantrips or leveled spells in this way. It just so happens that the Spellcasting and Pact Magic features are generally designed this way but there are traits, Feats and features which provide exceptions to this pattern.
Okay, so I know that this chain is pretty old, but I'm looking for guidance on the following and this is the only conversation I've seen that seems thoughtful along these lines:
Warlock pact of the tome allows me to take starry wisp, to which by level 2 I also apply repelling and agonizing blast. Then I take 3 levels of Druid and subclass Moon. Now the tome says I choose 3 cantrips/spells that I don't have prepared, but the book came first and the subclass feature granted me starry wisp. So now can I cast starry wisp amplified by agonizing and repelling blast in beast form? And if I later level druid to 7 and take potent spellcasting, can I also apply my wisdom modifier to the damage?
I guess the gist of this question is whether or not a specific casting of a spell/cantrip is class specific, and if the attainment of a specific cantrip that overlaps a current somehow erases the previous version...
My understanding:
- Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast apply to "your known Warlock cantrips".
- Pact of the Tome says a cantrip you choose, for example Starry Wisp, counts as a Warlock spell for you.
- Starry Wisp is by default a Bard and Druid spell.
- Because of Pact of the Tome, the cantrip counts as a Bard, Druid, and Warlock spell.
Now, based on the Multiclassing rules, I'd say then you would have two copies of Starry Wisp prepared, and you can cast the cantrip as a Warlock or as a Druid:
And according to this SAC answer:
Then, for your Druid/Warlock, Starry Wisp counts as a Warlock spell, so you can apply Agonizing Blast and Repelling Blast regardless of whether you cast it as a Warlock or a Druid.
For the same reason, you could apply Potent Spellcasting too in both cases because it's also a Druid cantrip:
EDIT: some recent threads related to what counts as a class spell:
Also, DrydinXal, if it's somehow helpful to you, I created a couple of threads in the past about Agonizing Blast / Potent Cantrip / Potent Spellcasting, and stacking:
My understanding is that if you have the same spell from multiple sources, you have to pick which source when you cast the spell. You would attach the effects based on your choice of source. So while our Druid/Warlock could either use Agonizing/Repelling Blast or Potent Spellcasting, they couldn't combine all three onto the same spell.
A big part of this proposed interaction relies heavily on whether or not the spells in question are considered to be "known" spells and how strictly you are interpreting the text for these Features with respect to "known" spells.
In my opinion, The Warlock's Pact of the Tome Eldritch Invocation does not cause the chosen cantrips to become "known" cantrips. They are merely "always prepared" cantrips conditional upon remaining in possession of the Pact of the Tome's Book of Shadows. As such, if you acquire access to the Starry Wisp cantrip via Pact of the Tome, you cannot apply the Agonizing Blast or Repelling Blast Eldritch Invocation effects to the casting of that cantrip.
Pact of the Tome:
Agonizing Blast:
Repelling Blast:
Ok, now, if for some reason the DM interprets the above texts loosely and decides that those features actually DO interact, then we can move on to the next portion of your question -- what happens when subsequently the Druid (3) Circle of the Moon subclass Feature also causes the Starry Wisp cantrip to become "always prepared".
The short answer: This is fine. The cantrip is still just "always prepared" for the purposes of additional Feature interactions -- it really doesn't matter how it became always prepared. So, if the first portion of the interaction was allowed above, then upon reaching Druid (3) Circle of the Moon you would indeed be able to cast the spell as you were already able to cast it, but while in beast form:
This ability is not contingent upon anything -- you can do this because this Feature says that you can.
Lastly, when it comes to the Druid (7) Elemental Fury / Potent Spellcasting Feature, the same idea applies:
A Druid cantrip is simply any cantrip that appears on the Druid Spell List (or any other cantrip that "counts as" a Druid cantrip for you). Starry Wisp appears on the Druid Spell List so this is a Druid cantrip. It doesn't matter how that Druid cantrip is cast -- this ability applies because this Feature says that it does.
No. This portion of the analysis is incorrect.
When it comes to casting spells, the Multiclassing rules ONLY apply to situations where the Spellcasting Class Feature is being used to prepare the spells. In this example, those Features are not used, so this Multiclassing rule does not apply. Instead, the Warlock Pact of the Tome Eldritch Invocation Feature causes the cantrip to become "always prepared" and also the Druid (Circle of the Moon) Circle of the Moon Spells Feature causes the cantrip to become "always prepared". When both Features are active, this is just redundant. The spell is not somehow prepared twice or anything like that. It's just a spell that you have "always prepared" for a couple of different reasons, but neither of those reasons were due to preparing it with the Warlock Pact Magic Class Feature or the Druid Spellcasting Class Feature.
As it turns out, when you do eventually decide to cast the spell, you will have to use a Spellcasting Class Feature (or Pact Magic Class Feature) to do so since neither of the above Features provided its own method for casting it. When you do so, you can use either your Warlock Pact Magic Class Feature or your Druid Spellcasting Class Feature since the spell is a Druid spell and has also become a Warlock spell and the spell is always prepared in your mind. For the above interactions, it doesn't matter which of these two Features you decide to use when casting the spell (in other words, it doesn't matter if you cast it "as a" Warlock or "as a" Druid) since these Features were not used to prepare it, and the 4 other Features which potentially interact with this casting of the spell (Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, Circle of the Moon Spells and Elemental Fury / Potent Spellcasting) only care about whether or not the spell is:
-- A Warlock cantrip with some additional requirements.
-- A spell that is listed in the Circle of the Moon Spells feature to which you currently have access.
-- A Druid cantrip.
All of these requirements are met.
As mentioned at the top of this post, the only potential problem with this full interaction that has been proposed is whether or not this particular cantrip in this particular situation is "known".
Again, this sort of thing is really only true when the spell was prepared with one of your Spellcasting Class Features as per the Multiclassing rules and you are subsequently trying to determine which Spellcasting Class Feature to use in order to cast it. You also have to take note if a Feature (such as a Feat) provides its own method of spellcasting, such as if it allows you to cast the spell without a spell slot by using a particular mental stat as your spellcasting ability just as an example. But even in both of those cases, if you actively have access to some other Feature that only cares about whether or not the spell being cast is a Druid spell, for example, then it doesn't matter how the spell is being cast -- it only matters whether or not the spell appears on the Druid Spell List in that case. The same is true with certain other wording that might exist on other Features that interact with casting spells.
Maybe it's not entirely incorrect?
But anyway, one way or another, it doesn't change the outcome.
Also, right or not, this is how D&D Beyond handles the proposed Warlock 2 / Druid 3, where it even informs you that you can cast Starry Wisp gained thanks to Level 3: Circle of the Moon Spells while Wild Shaped:
EDIT: for clarity.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with this unfortunately. This entire rule that you are quoting does not apply to this situation. It comes from the Multiclassing Rule. That rule only applies when you are attempting to prepare a spell by using your Spellcasting Class Feature and you have more than one such Feature. It does not apply to other ways of preparing a spell.
I'm also not sure what to be looking for in the screenshot although it wouldn't surprise me if D&D Beyond does not implement this situation correctly -- it is a relatively complex interaction of many rules that is being proposed here.
The only thing that I'm noticing is that Starry Wisp is listed twice. There shouldn't really be any functional difference between those two entries if you click on it and attempt to cast that spell. Is one of those entries causing the spell to be cast with the Warlock Pact Magic class feature and the other causing the spell to be cast with the Druid Spellcasting class feature? If so, that's a bit oversimplified. The reason is because if you gain access to this spell via the Pact of the Tome feature and you were also a low level Druid that did not yet have the Circle of the Moon subclass, you should still be able to use your Druid Spellcasting class feature to cast that spell since the spell is a Druid spell and it is prepared in your mind. The other way around doesn't work though. If you only gained access to this spell via the Circle of the Moon subclass and did not have Pact of the Tome, you would not be able to use your Warlock Pact Magic class feature to cast the spell because the spell is not actually a Warlock spell without the Pact of the Tome making it one.
I agree it's a complex interaction. The screenshot was just to show how D&D Beyond implements the proposed scenario, with the cantrip duplicated and showing the source.
I am a little confused. Your screenshot says you can cast the spell while in wild shape form. It does not say that you cannot cast them while not in a Wild Shape form (and I don't believe that is a restriction for single class Circle of Moon Druids).
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
I tried to explain it using my own words, with bad results, so I added that wrong restriction, sorry. It's as you're saying.
EDIT: updated previous reply to avoid confusion.