Does Medicine actually allow a character to treat another though? It is a diagnosis skill not a healing skill directly.
According to the PHB2024:
Medicine: Diagnose an illness, or determine what killed the recently slain.
This sounds like an Intelligence test. Sure, perception of symptoms is one thing, but without prior knowledge and deductive reasoning, it is pretty useless! I mean, I could notice that somebody has blue spots all around their neck, but I wouldn’t know what to do about it!
Yes, Medicine is used to treat. A DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check is what the rules call for when stabilizing someone who is at 0hp. I don't think that's just meant to represent your character standing over the other character and saying, "yep. What you've got here is a classic case of Troll-Bludgeoned Syndrome. Read all about it at Uni."
Also, being proficient in the skill means knowing what to do about it. Just because it takes some knowledge to do something doesn't mean it has to use Intelligence. It takes knowledge to perform a magic trick, or to climb a wall, or to train an animal, but that doesn't mean all of those should be Intelligence checks, it just means that all of those should be checks that you might be able to add your proficiency bonus to.
That isn’t treating. It is stabilising. It is the equivalent of first aid - it doesn’t return any HP. So it isn’t a treatment.
And in any case, it still seems like an Intelligence skill in application.
Huh? Stabilizing somebody who's bleeding out on the ground isn't treating them? Applying first aid isn't medical treatment?
No it isn’t. It is First Aid. It is what you do to ensure things won’t get worse until the actual medics arrive and provide treatment. In game terms, treatment is basically returning lost HP.
Again: whatever. Call it treatment or first aid or whatever you like, it doesn't change what it is. It isn't just diagnosing a condition, it isn't just having knowledge on diseases, it's practically applying your medical knowledge. And it uses a Wisdom (Medicine) check.
I am willing to bet that the Religion skill as is, is barely used at most DnD tables. It is also dependent on the world and how prevalent polytheistic traditions are. It is a very situational skill.
Even if Religion is as rarely used as you claim, which I doubt, Acrobatics is also a fairly situational skill. How come you aren't arguing that Acrobatics should become a Wisdom skill that measure how close to your god you are?
Regardless of your thoughts on the current Religion skill, your idea of supplanting it with a different skill entirely doesn't have any reason to be in this discussion. The Religion that you are proposing is not the Religion that we are talking about.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Huh? Stabilizing somebody who's bleeding out on the ground isn't treating them? Applying first aid isn't medical treatment?
No it isn’t. It is First Aid. It is what you do to ensure things won’t get worse until the actual medics arrive and provide treatment. In game terms, treatment is basically returning lost HP.
This is an absolutely bizarre hill to try and die on, but I hope someone treats you with the basic medical skills collectively known as "first aid" before you rhetorically expire
Speaking as a professional in the field, I hope your first aider should you ever need one, actually follows protocol to call upon an actual medical professional to apply treatment. A first aider merely buys time but you won’t get real treatment until the ambulance turns up at least.
Does Medicine actually allow a character to treat another though? It is a diagnosis skill not a healing skill directly.
According to the PHB2024:
Medicine: Diagnose an illness, or determine what killed the recently slain.
This sounds like an Intelligence test. Sure, perception of symptoms is one thing, but without prior knowledge and deductive reasoning, it is pretty useless! I mean, I could notice that somebody has blue spots all around their neck, but I wouldn’t know what to do about it!
Yes, Medicine is used to treat. A DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check is what the rules call for when stabilizing someone who is at 0hp. I don't think that's just meant to represent your character standing over the other character and saying, "yep. What you've got here is a classic case of Troll-Bludgeoned Syndrome. Read all about it at Uni."
Also, being proficient in the skill means knowing what to do about it. Just because it takes some knowledge to do something doesn't mean it has to use Intelligence. It takes knowledge to perform a magic trick, or to climb a wall, or to train an animal, but that doesn't mean all of those should be Intelligence checks, it just means that all of those should be checks that you might be able to add your proficiency bonus to.
That isn’t treating. It is stabilising. It is the equivalent of first aid - it doesn’t return any HP. So it isn’t a treatment.
And in any case, it still seems like an Intelligence skill in application.
Huh? Stabilizing somebody who's bleeding out on the ground isn't treating them? Applying first aid isn't medical treatment?
No it isn’t. It is First Aid. It is what you do to ensure things won’t get worse until the actual medics arrive and provide treatment. In game terms, treatment is basically returning lost HP.
Again: whatever. Call it treatment or first aid or whatever you like, it doesn't change what it is. It isn't just diagnosing a condition, it isn't just having knowledge on diseases, it's practically applying your medical knowledge. And it uses a Wisdom (Medicine) check.
I am willing to bet that the Religion skill as is, is barely used at most DnD tables. It is also dependent on the world and how prevalent polytheistic traditions are. It is a very situational skill.
Even if Religion is as rarely used as you claim, which I doubt, Acrobatics is also a fairly situational skill. How come you aren't arguing that Acrobatics should become a Wisdom skill that measure how close to your god you are?
Regardless of your thoughts on the current Religion skill, your idea of supplanting it with a different skill entirely doesn't have any reason to be in this discussion. The Religion that you are proposing is not the Religion that we are talking about.
Your entire argument here boils down to saying this is how we do it so I refuse to tolerate any argument against it. Acrobatics is a well used skill and isn’t in question. This entire thread suggests that both Medicine and Religion are, however.
No one's claiming someone administering first aid is a "medical professional", my dude. Just that administering treatment isn't the exclusive providence of said professionals
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Does Medicine actually allow a character to treat another though? It is a diagnosis skill not a healing skill directly.
According to the PHB2024:
Medicine: Diagnose an illness, or determine what killed the recently slain.
This sounds like an Intelligence test. Sure, perception of symptoms is one thing, but without prior knowledge and deductive reasoning, it is pretty useless! I mean, I could notice that somebody has blue spots all around their neck, but I wouldn’t know what to do about it!
Yes, Medicine is used to treat. A DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check is what the rules call for when stabilizing someone who is at 0hp. I don't think that's just meant to represent your character standing over the other character and saying, "yep. What you've got here is a classic case of Troll-Bludgeoned Syndrome. Read all about it at Uni."
Also, being proficient in the skill means knowing what to do about it. Just because it takes some knowledge to do something doesn't mean it has to use Intelligence. It takes knowledge to perform a magic trick, or to climb a wall, or to train an animal, but that doesn't mean all of those should be Intelligence checks, it just means that all of those should be checks that you might be able to add your proficiency bonus to.
That isn’t treating. It is stabilising. It is the equivalent of first aid - it doesn’t return any HP. So it isn’t a treatment.
And in any case, it still seems like an Intelligence skill in application.
Huh? Stabilizing somebody who's bleeding out on the ground isn't treating them? Applying first aid isn't medical treatment?
No it isn’t. It is First Aid. It is what you do to ensure things won’t get worse until the actual medics arrive and provide treatment. In game terms, treatment is basically returning lost HP.
Again: whatever. Call it treatment or first aid or whatever you like, it doesn't change what it is. It isn't just diagnosing a condition, it isn't just having knowledge on diseases, it's practically applying your medical knowledge. And it uses a Wisdom (Medicine) check.
I am willing to bet that the Religion skill as is, is barely used at most DnD tables. It is also dependent on the world and how prevalent polytheistic traditions are. It is a very situational skill.
Even if Religion is as rarely used as you claim, which I doubt, Acrobatics is also a fairly situational skill. How come you aren't arguing that Acrobatics should become a Wisdom skill that measure how close to your god you are?
Regardless of your thoughts on the current Religion skill, your idea of supplanting it with a different skill entirely doesn't have any reason to be in this discussion. The Religion that you are proposing is not the Religion that we are talking about.
Your entire argument here boils down to saying this is how we do it so I refuse to tolerate any argument against it. Acrobatics is a well used skill and isn’t in question. This entire thread suggests that both Medicine and Religion are, however.
No? The OP was considering if/how the Medicine and Religion skills could use different stats. I looked at what Medicine and Religion actually are and how they're used in the rules, and came to conclusions based on that. You invented your own skill that you think should replace Religion, and repeatedly insisted that first aid does not qualify as medical treatment to an end that is yet obscure to me.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
No one's claiming someone administering first aid is a "medical professional", my dude. Just that administering treatment isn't the exclusive providence of said professionals
What is being said, My Dude, is that the Medicine skill in practical application amounts to First Aid and doesn’t heal a character at all. First Aid amounts to not doing things that would accelerate death before actual treatment can begin.
The description of the Medicine skill merely presents it as a diagnostic skill which relates better to Intelligence rather than being merely about perception (Wisdom) and treatment. From the perspective of medieval fantasy, it is closer related to other Proficiencies like Herbalism and Nature - both of which are based on Intelligence.
Does Medicine actually allow a character to treat another though? It is a diagnosis skill not a healing skill directly.
According to the PHB2024:
Medicine: Diagnose an illness, or determine what killed the recently slain.
This sounds like an Intelligence test. Sure, perception of symptoms is one thing, but without prior knowledge and deductive reasoning, it is pretty useless! I mean, I could notice that somebody has blue spots all around their neck, but I wouldn’t know what to do about it!
Yes, Medicine is used to treat. A DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check is what the rules call for when stabilizing someone who is at 0hp. I don't think that's just meant to represent your character standing over the other character and saying, "yep. What you've got here is a classic case of Troll-Bludgeoned Syndrome. Read all about it at Uni."
Also, being proficient in the skill means knowing what to do about it. Just because it takes some knowledge to do something doesn't mean it has to use Intelligence. It takes knowledge to perform a magic trick, or to climb a wall, or to train an animal, but that doesn't mean all of those should be Intelligence checks, it just means that all of those should be checks that you might be able to add your proficiency bonus to.
That isn’t treating. It is stabilising. It is the equivalent of first aid - it doesn’t return any HP. So it isn’t a treatment.
And in any case, it still seems like an Intelligence skill in application.
Huh? Stabilizing somebody who's bleeding out on the ground isn't treating them? Applying first aid isn't medical treatment?
No it isn’t. It is First Aid. It is what you do to ensure things won’t get worse until the actual medics arrive and provide treatment. In game terms, treatment is basically returning lost HP.
Again: whatever. Call it treatment or first aid or whatever you like, it doesn't change what it is. It isn't just diagnosing a condition, it isn't just having knowledge on diseases, it's practically applying your medical knowledge. And it uses a Wisdom (Medicine) check.
I am willing to bet that the Religion skill as is, is barely used at most DnD tables. It is also dependent on the world and how prevalent polytheistic traditions are. It is a very situational skill.
Even if Religion is as rarely used as you claim, which I doubt, Acrobatics is also a fairly situational skill. How come you aren't arguing that Acrobatics should become a Wisdom skill that measure how close to your god you are?
Regardless of your thoughts on the current Religion skill, your idea of supplanting it with a different skill entirely doesn't have any reason to be in this discussion. The Religion that you are proposing is not the Religion that we are talking about.
Your entire argument here boils down to saying this is how we do it so I refuse to tolerate any argument against it. Acrobatics is a well used skill and isn’t in question. This entire thread suggests that both Medicine and Religion are, however.
No? The OP was considering if/how the Medicine and Religion skills could use different stats. I looked at what Medicine and Religion actually are and how they're used in the rules, and came to conclusions based on that. You invented your own skill that you think should replace Religion, and repeatedly insisted that first aid does not qualify as medical treatment to an end that is yet obscure to me.
And I’m addressing the OP’s inquiry directly by discussing what the skills actually mean. No skills are being ‘invented’. What is being questioned is their interpretation. However, you apparently think this is not allowed.
When people are asking about Religion, especially how it pertains to a Cleric who is religious, one can question the how useful the skill is when considering other religions that are not their own. If the skill related to the personal understanding of the myths and legends of one’s own religion then I would suggest Wisdom is the more apt connection. If we are talking more about academic knowledge of all Religions, then you could argue Intelligence is more apt. However, I don’t think it is all that useful. Religious lore, unlike the other Intelligence skills is based on feelings more than facts, and personal perception more than investigation, in practice.
Religious lore, unlike the other Intelligence skills is based on feelings more than facts, and personal perception more than investigation, in practice.
Could you elaborate on this?
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The description of the Medicine skill merely presents it as a diagnostic skill which relates better to Intelligence rather than being merely about perception (Wisdom) and treatment. From the perspective of medieval fantasy, it is closer related to other Proficiencies like Herbalism and Nature - both of which are based on Intelligence.
Tell that to the writers of the 2024 Players Handbook
Stabilizing a Character
You can take the Help action to try to stabilize a creature with 0 Hit Points, which requires a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check.
The PHB presents Medicine as a skill that can be used to treat* someone and prevent them from dying, using a check based on Wisdom and not Intelligence
By the way, the roots of first aid date back to at least the Romans, if not earlier, so your "medieval fantasy" argument isn't going to fly either
* - yes, yes, we know. How you define "treatment" in your professional life has absolutely no bearing on what it means in a D&D context, sorry
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Religious lore, unlike the other Intelligence skills is based on feelings more than facts, and personal perception more than investigation, in practice.
Could you elaborate on this?
Sure. What I mean is, in the context of a Cleric, what they are likely to be able to primarily recall is information about their own religion - including texts, lore, legends, doctrine, principles and so on. These things are not facts, in the same way that history or medicine tries to establish facts, but are essentially stories that hold personal meaning and deeper truths to the practitioner. These are things I would more associate with Wisdom rather that Intelligence.
Of course, if we take Religion as an Intelligence skill, and treat it like a knowledge of facts, dates, ethical analysis and anthropology it becomes an academic discipline like History or the like. However, the irony is that any type of Intelligence-based, impersonalised analysis of this type is less likely to be studied by a practitioner who is personally invested in a particular religion. This is further complicated by it being a fantasy game where legend and lore or gods is actually real, of course!
However, my real point is that the main character type likely to pick up Religion as a Proficiency - Clerics, Acolytes especially - are more likely to pick it up on account of it being a personal investment in their own religion (Wisdom) rather than an academic exercise (Intelligence) that makes their own religion just another belief system on a comparative level to others.
The description of the Medicine skill merely presents it as a diagnostic skill which relates better to Intelligence rather than being merely about perception (Wisdom) and treatment. From the perspective of medieval fantasy, it is closer related to other Proficiencies like Herbalism and Nature - both of which are based on Intelligence.
Tell that to the writers of the 2024 Players Handbook
Stabilizing a Character
You can take the Help action to try to stabilize a creature with 0 Hit Points, which requires a successful DC 10 Wisdom (Medicine) check.
The PHB presents Medicine as a skill that can be used to treat* someone and prevent them from dying, using a check based on Wisdom and not Intelligence
By the way, the roots of first aid date back to at least the Romans, if not earlier, so your "medieval fantasy" argument isn't going to fly either
* - yes, yes, we know. How you define "treatment" in your professional life has absolutely no bearing on what it means in a D&D context, sorry
It has an absolute meaning in the D&D context in that Medicine can’t be used to actually heal, only to stabilise and stop somebody on 0 HP from dying. That is merely first aid in the real world context and not treatment in that it doesn’t actually provide any cures or means of improving the character back to full health.
I’m sure that first aid dates back to the dawn of time in as much as all it means is "help given to a sick or injured person until full medical treatment is available”. This makes zero difference to the point at hand though.
Religious lore, unlike the other Intelligence skills is based on feelings more than facts, and personal perception more than investigation, in practice.
Could you elaborate on this?
Sure. What I mean is, in the context of a Cleric, what they are likely to be able to primarily recall is information about their own religion - including texts, lore, legends, doctrine, principles and so on. These things are not facts, in the same way that history or medicine tries to establish facts, but are essentially stories that hold personal meaning and deeper truths to the practitioner. These are things I would more associate with Wisdom rather that Intelligence.
Of course, if we take Religion as an Intelligence skill, and treat it like a knowledge of facts, dates, ethical analysis and anthropology it becomes an academic discipline like History or the like. However, the irony is that any type of Intelligence-based, impersonalised analysis of this type is less likely to be studied by a practitioner who is personally invested in a particular religion. This is further complicated by it being a fantasy game where legend and lore or gods is actually real, of course!
However, my real point is that the main character type likely to pick up Religion as a Proficiency - Clerics, Acolytes especially - are more likely to pick it up on account of it being a personal investment in their own religion (Wisdom) rather than an academic exercise (Intelligence) that makes their own religion just another belief system on a comparative level to others.
It seems that the 2024 authors actually felt both views of the Religion skill were applicable (Intelligence-based “academic” and Wisdom-based “personal”) and provided the Thaumaturge feature to let Clerics add their Wisdom modifier to their Intelligence (Religion) checks.
The 2024 PHB does elaborate what Religion allows you to do, including using the Study action to recall information about (among other things) Celestials, Fiends and Undead, which might well be of interest to characters who otherwise have no interest in religion.
It seems that the 2024 authors actually felt both views of the Religion skill were applicable (Intelligence-based “academic” and Wisdom-based “personal”) and provided the Thaumaturge feature to let Clerics add their Wisdom modifier to their Intelligence (Religion) checks.
The 2024 PHB does elaborate what Religion allows you to do, including using the Study action to recall information about (among other things) Celestials, Fiends and Undead, which might well be of interest to characters who otherwise have no interest in religion.
Which I think is true although I wonder how much of this type of Lore could just be handled by a single Arcane skill anyway (incorporating knowledge of magical beings of all types)?
For me, as I say, I rarely see characters making that many rolls about Religion in the game as it stands. The only characters who tend to pick it are already strong followers of a specific religion.
It seems that the 2024 authors actually felt both views of the Religion skill were applicable (Intelligence-based “academic” and Wisdom-based “personal”) and provided the Thaumaturge feature to let Clerics add their Wisdom modifier to their Intelligence (Religion) checks.
The 2024 PHB does elaborate what Religion allows you to do, including using the Study action to recall information about (among other things) Celestials, Fiends and Undead, which might well be of interest to characters who otherwise have no interest in religion.
Which I think is true although I wonder how much of this type of Lore could just be handled by a single Arcane skill anyway (incorporating knowledge of magical beings of all types)?
For me, as I say, I rarely see characters making that many rolls about Religion in the game as it stands. The only characters who tend to pick it are already strong followers of a specific religion.
The entire point of having Nature, Arcane, and Religion is to not make Arcana the one knowledge stat to rule them all.
Religious lore, unlike the other Intelligence skills is based on feelings more than facts, and personal perception more than investigation, in practice.
Could you elaborate on this?
Sure. What I mean is, in the context of a Cleric, what they are likely to be able to primarily recall is information about their own religion - including texts, lore, legends, doctrine, principles and so on. These things are not facts, in the same way that history or medicine tries to establish facts, but are essentially stories that hold personal meaning and deeper truths to the practitioner. These are things I would more associate with Wisdom rather that Intelligence.
Of course, if we take Religion as an Intelligence skill, and treat it like a knowledge of facts, dates, ethical analysis and anthropology it becomes an academic discipline like History or the like. However, the irony is that any type of Intelligence-based, impersonalised analysis of this type is less likely to be studied by a practitioner who is personally invested in a particular religion. This is further complicated by it being a fantasy game where legend and lore or gods is actually real, of course!
However, my real point is that the main character type likely to pick up Religion as a Proficiency - Clerics, Acolytes especially - are more likely to pick it up on account of it being a personal investment in their own religion (Wisdom) rather than an academic exercise (Intelligence) that makes their own religion just another belief system on a comparative level to others.
What is a Wisdom (Religion) check actually for, even if it's somebody taking an action regarding their own faith? Rolling for their personal connection to their own religion? How would the effects of that roll be played out? Intelligence is pretty clear-cut: you're rolling to recall a piece of information. With Wisdom, though, you're rolling... to have deeper personal truths within specific religious stories? Is that really something that's going to have more relevance in a game than information on cults and doctrines and iconography across all of a world's religions? Even if there were an applicable situation, is that really something you should be rolling for? How is a DM meant to respond to a failure, or especially a success?
Also, what about Paladins? They aren't known for their high Wisdom, what with the MADness and all, so do they just not have as close a connection to whatever religion they might associate with?
I'd say that the argument of "Religion should use Wisdom because that's a Cleric's personal connection to their religion and Clerics should be able to know more about their religion through their personal connection" doesn't really make sense, because a Cleric should almost never have to roll a Religion check about their own religion. A roll is for when there's uncertainty, and someone as devoted as a Cleric should not be uncertain of much at all regarding their faith. You don't have to make a roll to recognize a religious symbol when it's the same one that you hold up every time you cast a spell. Similar deal with the Acolyte background, and with Paladins, and with Druids, and with some Monks, and with anybody especially committed to a religion, because that's just common sense.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
For me, as I say, I rarely see characters making that many rolls about Religion in the game as it stands. The only characters who tend to pick it are already strong followers of a specific religion.
It seems that the 2024 authors actually felt both views of the Religion skill were applicable (Intelligence-based “academic” and Wisdom-based “personal”) and provided the Thaumaturge feature to let Clerics add their Wisdom modifier to their Intelligence (Religion) checks.
The 2024 PHB does elaborate what Religion allows you to do, including using the Study action to recall information about (among other things) Celestials, Fiends and Undead, which might well be of interest to characters who otherwise have no interest in religion.
Which I think is true although I wonder how much of this type of Lore could just be handled by a single Arcane skill anyway (incorporating knowledge of magical beings of all types)?
For me, as I say, I rarely see characters making that many rolls about Religion in the game as it stands. The only characters who tend to pick it are already strong followers of a specific religion.
The entire point of having Nature, Arcane, and Religion is to not make Arcana the one knowledge stat to rule them all.
Well, newsflash, it doesn’t rule them all. Depending on the character, skills like Stealth, Perception Athletics, Persuasion all have massive application in the game as it stands. Having a skill to cover all, well, Arcane knowledge isn’t that big a deal.
What is a Wisdom (Religion) check actually for, even if it's somebody taking an action regarding their own faith? Rolling for their personal connection to their own religion? How would the effects of that roll be played out? Intelligence is pretty clear-cut: you're rolling to recall a piece of information. With Wisdom, though, you're rolling... to have deeper personal truths within specific religious stories? Is that really something that's going to have more relevance in a game than information on cults and doctrines and iconography across all of a world's religions? Even if there were an applicable situation, is that really something you should be rolling for? How is a DM meant to respond to a failure, or especially a success?
Also, what about Paladins? They aren't known for their high Wisdom, what with the MADness and all, so do they just not have as close a connection to whatever religion they might associate with?
I'd say that the argument of "Religion should use Wisdom because that's a Cleric's personal connection to their religion and Clerics should be able to know more about their religion through their personal connection" doesn't really make sense, because a Cleric should almost never have to roll a Religion check about their own religion. A roll is for when there's uncertainty, and someone as devoted as a Cleric should not be uncertain of much at all regarding their faith. You don't have to make a roll to recognize a religious symbol when it's the same one that you hold up every time you cast a spell. Similar deal with the Acolyte background, and with Paladins, and with Druids, and with some Monks, and with anybody especially committed to a religion, because that's just common sense.
In my games, a Religion (Wisdom) would be used to recall lore and meaning from religious texts, prayers and rituals as well as particular sub-groups, organisation, titles and etiquette regarding the cult or religion you belong to. You can still apply it in the sense of recalling information about religion, but unlike recalling the cold facts that you might with a History roll, for example, it would be more about discerning the symbolic meaning in the subtext. And no, I don’t think that all Clerics would all have the same depth of Wisdom about their own religion.
In the case of Paladin, I’d say they are less about having a deep understanding of religion and more about being a living embodiment or paragon of it.
It seems that the 2024 authors actually felt both views of the Religion skill were applicable (Intelligence-based “academic” and Wisdom-based “personal”) and provided the Thaumaturge feature to let Clerics add their Wisdom modifier to their Intelligence (Religion) checks.
The 2024 PHB does elaborate what Religion allows you to do, including using the Study action to recall information about (among other things) Celestials, Fiends and Undead, which might well be of interest to characters who otherwise have no interest in religion.
Which I think is true although I wonder how much of this type of Lore could just be handled by a single Arcane skill anyway (incorporating knowledge of magical beings of all types)?
For me, as I say, I rarely see characters making that many rolls about Religion in the game as it stands. The only characters who tend to pick it are already strong followers of a specific religion.
The entire point of having Nature, Arcane, and Religion is to not make Arcana the one knowledge stat to rule them all.
Well, newsflash, it doesn’t rule them all. Depending on the character, skills like Stealth, Perception Athletics, Persuasion all have massive application in the game as it stands. Having a skill to cover all, well, Arcane knowledge isn’t that big a deal.
What do Stealth, Perception, Athletics, and Persuasion have to do with knowledge checks? Ace is clearly saying that knowledge a character possesses from the Religion skill is different than knowledge from the Arcana skill. They’re also saying this is by design so that Arcana is not disproportionately valued compared to the other knowledge skills: Religion, Nature and History.
Of course, if we take Religion as an Intelligence skill, and treat it like a knowledge of facts, dates, ethical analysis and anthropology it becomes an academic discipline like History or the like. However, the irony is that any type of Intelligence-based, impersonalised analysis of this type is less likely to be studied by a practitioner who is personally invested in a particular religion. This is further complicated by it being a fantasy game where legend and lore or gods is actually real, of course!
I wonder what a rabbi would make of this
Also, gods being a real, provable fact in a world would seem to simply blow up your implicit "proof and faith are incompatible" argument, not make it more 'complicated'
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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Again: whatever. Call it treatment or first aid or whatever you like, it doesn't change what it is. It isn't just diagnosing a condition, it isn't just having knowledge on diseases, it's practically applying your medical knowledge. And it uses a Wisdom (Medicine) check.
Even if Religion is as rarely used as you claim, which I doubt, Acrobatics is also a fairly situational skill. How come you aren't arguing that Acrobatics should become a Wisdom skill that measure how close to your god you are?
Regardless of your thoughts on the current Religion skill, your idea of supplanting it with a different skill entirely doesn't have any reason to be in this discussion. The Religion that you are proposing is not the Religion that we are talking about.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Speaking as a professional in the field, I hope your first aider should you ever need one, actually follows protocol to call upon an actual medical professional to apply treatment. A first aider merely buys time but you won’t get real treatment until the ambulance turns up at least.
Your entire argument here boils down to saying this is how we do it so I refuse to tolerate any argument against it. Acrobatics is a well used skill and isn’t in question. This entire thread suggests that both Medicine and Religion are, however.
LOL. Now it makes sense
No one's claiming someone administering first aid is a "medical professional", my dude. Just that administering treatment isn't the exclusive providence of said professionals
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No? The OP was considering if/how the Medicine and Religion skills could use different stats. I looked at what Medicine and Religion actually are and how they're used in the rules, and came to conclusions based on that. You invented your own skill that you think should replace Religion, and repeatedly insisted that first aid does not qualify as medical treatment to an end that is yet obscure to me.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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What is being said, My Dude, is that the Medicine skill in practical application amounts to First Aid and doesn’t heal a character at all. First Aid amounts to not doing things that would accelerate death before actual treatment can begin.
The description of the Medicine skill merely presents it as a diagnostic skill which relates better to Intelligence rather than being merely about perception (Wisdom) and treatment. From the perspective of medieval fantasy, it is closer related to other Proficiencies like Herbalism and Nature - both of which are based on Intelligence.
And I’m addressing the OP’s inquiry directly by discussing what the skills actually mean. No skills are being ‘invented’. What is being questioned is their interpretation. However, you apparently think this is not allowed.
When people are asking about Religion, especially how it pertains to a Cleric who is religious, one can question the how useful the skill is when considering other religions that are not their own. If the skill related to the personal understanding of the myths and legends of one’s own religion then I would suggest Wisdom is the more apt connection. If we are talking more about academic knowledge of all Religions, then you could argue Intelligence is more apt. However, I don’t think it is all that useful. Religious lore, unlike the other Intelligence skills is based on feelings more than facts, and personal perception more than investigation, in practice.
Could you elaborate on this?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Tell that to the writers of the 2024 Players Handbook
The PHB presents Medicine as a skill that can be used to treat* someone and prevent them from dying, using a check based on Wisdom and not Intelligence
By the way, the roots of first aid date back to at least the Romans, if not earlier, so your "medieval fantasy" argument isn't going to fly either
* - yes, yes, we know. How you define "treatment" in your professional life has absolutely no bearing on what it means in a D&D context, sorry
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Sure. What I mean is, in the context of a Cleric, what they are likely to be able to primarily recall is information about their own religion - including texts, lore, legends, doctrine, principles and so on. These things are not facts, in the same way that history or medicine tries to establish facts, but are essentially stories that hold personal meaning and deeper truths to the practitioner. These are things I would more associate with Wisdom rather that Intelligence.
Of course, if we take Religion as an Intelligence skill, and treat it like a knowledge of facts, dates, ethical analysis and anthropology it becomes an academic discipline like History or the like. However, the irony is that any type of Intelligence-based, impersonalised analysis of this type is less likely to be studied by a practitioner who is personally invested in a particular religion. This is further complicated by it being a fantasy game where legend and lore or gods is actually real, of course!
However, my real point is that the main character type likely to pick up Religion as a Proficiency - Clerics, Acolytes especially - are more likely to pick it up on account of it being a personal investment in their own religion (Wisdom) rather than an academic exercise (Intelligence) that makes their own religion just another belief system on a comparative level to others.
It has an absolute meaning in the D&D context in that Medicine can’t be used to actually heal, only to stabilise and stop somebody on 0 HP from dying. That is merely first aid in the real world context and not treatment in that it doesn’t actually provide any cures or means of improving the character back to full health.
I’m sure that first aid dates back to the dawn of time in as much as all it means is "help given to a sick or injured person until full medical treatment is available”. This makes zero difference to the point at hand though.
[REDACTED]
It seems that the 2024 authors actually felt both views of the Religion skill were applicable (Intelligence-based “academic” and Wisdom-based “personal”) and provided the Thaumaturge feature to let Clerics add their Wisdom modifier to their Intelligence (Religion) checks.
The 2024 PHB does elaborate what Religion allows you to do, including using the Study action to recall information about (among other things) Celestials, Fiends and Undead, which might well be of interest to characters who otherwise have no interest in religion.
Which I think is true although I wonder how much of this type of Lore could just be handled by a single Arcane skill anyway (incorporating knowledge of magical beings of all types)?
For me, as I say, I rarely see characters making that many rolls about Religion in the game as it stands. The only characters who tend to pick it are already strong followers of a specific religion.
The entire point of having Nature, Arcane, and Religion is to not make Arcana the one knowledge stat to rule them all.
What is a Wisdom (Religion) check actually for, even if it's somebody taking an action regarding their own faith? Rolling for their personal connection to their own religion? How would the effects of that roll be played out? Intelligence is pretty clear-cut: you're rolling to recall a piece of information. With Wisdom, though, you're rolling... to have deeper personal truths within specific religious stories? Is that really something that's going to have more relevance in a game than information on cults and doctrines and iconography across all of a world's religions? Even if there were an applicable situation, is that really something you should be rolling for? How is a DM meant to respond to a failure, or especially a success?
Also, what about Paladins? They aren't known for their high Wisdom, what with the MADness and all, so do they just not have as close a connection to whatever religion they might associate with?
I'd say that the argument of "Religion should use Wisdom because that's a Cleric's personal connection to their religion and Clerics should be able to know more about their religion through their personal connection" doesn't really make sense, because a Cleric should almost never have to roll a Religion check about their own religion. A roll is for when there's uncertainty, and someone as devoted as a Cleric should not be uncertain of much at all regarding their faith. You don't have to make a roll to recognize a religious symbol when it's the same one that you hold up every time you cast a spell. Similar deal with the Acolyte background, and with Paladins, and with Druids, and with some Monks, and with anybody especially committed to a religion, because that's just common sense.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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As a DM, I often let players make checks to learn more details about monsters and creatures, using the Monster Research table included in Tasha's Cauldron of Everything.
This way, all the knowledge-related Skills eventually get used, with Religion being a common one.
Well, newsflash, it doesn’t rule them all. Depending on the character, skills like Stealth, Perception Athletics, Persuasion all have massive application in the game as it stands. Having a skill to cover all, well, Arcane knowledge isn’t that big a deal.
In my games, a Religion (Wisdom) would be used to recall lore and meaning from religious texts, prayers and rituals as well as particular sub-groups, organisation, titles and etiquette regarding the cult or religion you belong to. You can still apply it in the sense of recalling information about religion, but unlike recalling the cold facts that you might with a History roll, for example, it would be more about discerning the symbolic meaning in the subtext. And no, I don’t think that all Clerics would all have the same depth of Wisdom about their own religion.
In the case of Paladin, I’d say they are less about having a deep understanding of religion and more about being a living embodiment or paragon of it.
What do Stealth, Perception, Athletics, and Persuasion have to do with knowledge checks? Ace is clearly saying that knowledge a character possesses from the Religion skill is different than knowledge from the Arcana skill. They’re also saying this is by design so that Arcana is not disproportionately valued compared to the other knowledge skills: Religion, Nature and History.
I wonder what a rabbi would make of this
Also, gods being a real, provable fact in a world would seem to simply blow up your implicit "proof and faith are incompatible" argument, not make it more 'complicated'
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)