For me, as I say, I rarely see characters making that many rolls about Religion in the game as it stands. The only characters who tend to pick it are already strong followers of a specific religion.
This way, all the knowledge-related Skills eventually get used, with Religion being a common one.
The most recent character I've played who made heavy use of the Religion skill is the sorc/fighter multiclass who was raised in a cult and now fights against them
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
For me, as I say, I rarely see characters making that many rolls about Religion in the game as it stands. The only characters who tend to pick it are already strong followers of a specific religion.
This way, all the knowledge-related Skills eventually get used, with Religion being a common one.
The most recent character I've played who made heavy use of the Religion skill is the sorc/fighter multiclass who was raised in a cult and now fights against them
What is a Wisdom (Religion) check actually for, even if it's somebody taking an action regarding their own faith? Rolling for their personal connection to their own religion? How would the effects of that roll be played out? Intelligence is pretty clear-cut: you're rolling to recall a piece of information. With Wisdom, though, you're rolling... to have deeper personal truths within specific religious stories? Is that really something that's going to have more relevance in a game than information on cults and doctrines and iconography across all of a world's religions? Even if there were an applicable situation, is that really something you should be rolling for? How is a DM meant to respond to a failure, or especially a success?
Also, what about Paladins? They aren't known for their high Wisdom, what with the MADness and all, so do they just not have as close a connection to whatever religion they might associate with?
I'd say that the argument of "Religion should use Wisdom because that's a Cleric's personal connection to their religion and Clerics should be able to know more about their religion through their personal connection" doesn't really make sense, because a Cleric should almost never have to roll a Religion check about their own religion. A roll is for when there's uncertainty, and someone as devoted as a Cleric should not be uncertain of much at all regarding their faith. You don't have to make a roll to recognize a religious symbol when it's the same one that you hold up every time you cast a spell. Similar deal with the Acolyte background, and with Paladins, and with Druids, and with some Monks, and with anybody especially committed to a religion, because that's just common sense.
In my games, a Religion (Wisdom) would be used to recall lore and meaning from religious texts, prayers and rituals as well as particular sub-groups, organisation, titles and etiquette regarding the cult or religion you belong to. You can still apply it in the sense of recalling information about religion, but unlike recalling the cold facts that you might with a History roll, for example, it would be more about discerning the symbolic meaning in the subtext.
When are you going to need the subtext of a religious story in a game? And why are we delegating something so incredibly subjective as personal significance to a pass/fail roll?
Also, why would a Cleric have to roll to know stuff like prayers or sects of their own religion? I'm pretty sure most Catholic priests don't have to roll every time they want to remember that Protestants exist.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
What is a Wisdom (Religion) check actually for, even if it's somebody taking an action regarding their own faith? Rolling for their personal connection to their own religion? How would the effects of that roll be played out? Intelligence is pretty clear-cut: you're rolling to recall a piece of information. With Wisdom, though, you're rolling... to have deeper personal truths within specific religious stories? Is that really something that's going to have more relevance in a game than information on cults and doctrines and iconography across all of a world's religions? Even if there were an applicable situation, is that really something you should be rolling for? How is a DM meant to respond to a failure, or especially a success?
Also, what about Paladins? They aren't known for their high Wisdom, what with the MADness and all, so do they just not have as close a connection to whatever religion they might associate with?
I'd say that the argument of "Religion should use Wisdom because that's a Cleric's personal connection to their religion and Clerics should be able to know more about their religion through their personal connection" doesn't really make sense, because a Cleric should almost never have to roll a Religion check about their own religion. A roll is for when there's uncertainty, and someone as devoted as a Cleric should not be uncertain of much at all regarding their faith. You don't have to make a roll to recognize a religious symbol when it's the same one that you hold up every time you cast a spell. Similar deal with the Acolyte background, and with Paladins, and with Druids, and with some Monks, and with anybody especially committed to a religion, because that's just common sense.
In my games, a Religion (Wisdom) would be used to recall lore and meaning from religious texts, prayers and rituals as well as particular sub-groups, organisation, titles and etiquette regarding the cult or religion you belong to. You can still apply it in the sense of recalling information about religion, but unlike recalling the cold facts that you might with a History roll, for example, it would be more about discerning the symbolic meaning in the subtext.
When are you going to need the subtext of a religious story in a game? And why are we delegating something so incredibly subjective as personal significance to a pass/fail roll?
Also, why would a Cleric have to roll to know stuff like prayers or sects of their own religion? I'm pretty sure most Catholic priests don't have to roll every time they want to remember that Protestants exist.
On the contrary, their Religion modifier is simply too high to fail the knowledge check on such a low DC. They'd still need to roll to remember specific details that are more obscure.
In my games, a Religion (Wisdom) would be used to recall lore and meaning from religious texts, prayers and rituals as well as particular sub-groups, organisation, titles and etiquette regarding the cult or religion you belong to. You can still apply it in the sense of recalling information about religion, but unlike recalling the cold facts that you might with a History roll, for example, it would be more about discerning the symbolic meaning in the subtext. There are literal orders within the Catholic Church dedicated to this type of learning. How much do you know about the Jesuits, the Premonstratensians or the Bethlemite Brothers? How much does an average Catholic priest know about Gnostic sects?
When are you going to need the subtext of a religious story in a game? And why are we delegating something so incredibly subjective as personal significance to a pass/fail roll?
Also, why would a Cleric have to roll to know stuff like prayers or sects of their own religion? I'm pretty sure most Catholic priests don't have to roll every time they want to remember that Protestants exist.
In the context of a Cleric, it would serve as a form of internalised guidance in all sorts of matter of faith.
And a Cleric would need to know all sorts of different prayers and sects that may not be well known or important to ascertain if seeking clues in different situations. I would categorically tell you that an average Catholic priest absolutely doesn’t know everything about the whole history of their faith or other sects. They’d need to consult experts in their own orders or become expert themselves.
In my games, a Religion (Wisdom) would be used to recall lore and meaning from religious texts, prayers and rituals as well as particular sub-groups, organisation, titles and etiquette regarding the cult or religion you belong to. You can still apply it in the sense of recalling information about religion, but unlike recalling the cold facts that you might with a History roll, for example, it would be more about discerning the symbolic meaning in the subtext. There are literal orders within the Catholic Church dedicated to this type of learning. How much do you know about the Jesuits, the Premonstratensians or the Bethlemite Brothers? How much does an average Catholic priest know about Gnostic sects?
When are you going to need the subtext of a religious story in a game? And why are we delegating something so incredibly subjective as personal significance to a pass/fail roll?
Also, why would a Cleric have to roll to know stuff like prayers or sects of their own religion? I'm pretty sure most Catholic priests don't have to roll every time they want to remember that Protestants exist.
In the context of a Cleric, it would serve as a form of internalised guidance in all sorts of matter of faith.
But... how would it actually work in a game? The Cleric doesn't know what decision to make, rolls a Wisdom (Religion) check, and then the DM has to dictate to the player what their faith would deem morally good? As if they just have that answer on hand?
And a Cleric would need to know all sorts of different prayers and sects that may not be well known or important to ascertain if seeking clues in different situations.
Yeah, I'm sure situations where you need to know a specific prayer of your own religion to get a vital clue abound in the average game. They'd certainly show up far more often than checks that covers the practices, histories, beliefs, and symbols of all religions across the world.
I would categorically tell you that an average Catholic priest absolutely doesn’t know everything about the whole history of their faith or other sects. They’d need to consult experts in their own orders or become expert themselves.
And becoming an expert in the history and other sects of your faith is a matter of Wisdom?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
In my games, a Religion (Wisdom) would be used to recall lore and meaning from religious texts, prayers and rituals as well as particular sub-groups, organisation, titles and etiquette regarding the cult or religion you belong to. You can still apply it in the sense of recalling information about religion, but unlike recalling the cold facts that you might with a History roll, for example, it would be more about discerning the symbolic meaning in the subtext. There are literal orders within the Catholic Church dedicated to this type of learning. How much do you know about the Jesuits, the Premonstratensians or the Bethlemite Brothers? How much does an average Catholic priest know about Gnostic sects?
When are you going to need the subtext of a religious story in a game? And why are we delegating something so incredibly subjective as personal significance to a pass/fail roll?
Also, why would a Cleric have to roll to know stuff like prayers or sects of their own religion? I'm pretty sure most Catholic priests don't have to roll every time they want to remember that Protestants exist.
In the context of a Cleric, it would serve as a form of internalised guidance in all sorts of matter of faith.
But... how would it actually work in a game? The Cleric doesn't know what decision to make, rolls a Wisdom (Religion) check, and then the DM has to dictate to the player what their faith would deem morally good? As if they just have that answer on hand?
Well, I’ve explained how and it does depend upon each different scenario context. If there are religious symbols on the wall of a dungeon, for example, the check could be made to relate it to basic religious teachings or deeper truths and meanings if the roll is better. So, it would be akin to a Tarot card reader knowing the basic meaning of drawn card, but a deeper reading being understood by a more wise practitioner in relation to other cards drawn. A better roll could also give guidance about how best to interpret the symbolism about what to do next for the most benefit.
And a Cleric would need to know all sorts of different prayers and sects that may not be well known or important to ascertain if seeking clues in different situations.
Yeah, I'm sure situations where you need to know a specific prayer of your own religion to get a vital clue abound in the average game. They'd certainly show up far more often than checks that covers the practices, histories, beliefs, and symbols of all religions across the world.
As somebody was quick to point out before, it depends on your game. However. in my game, the current use of Religion proficiency is frequently ignored. Outside of religious types who needs to know about Religion?
And becoming an expert in your the history and other sects of your faith is a matter of Wisdom?
Yes. Matters of faith don’t rely upon actual facts as much as they do upon personal meaning. Religions teach parables, sermons and gods ‘moving in mysterious ways’ rather than hard evidence or logic. While the unfaithful might only perceive random conincidental events, a character proficient in Religion might perceive hidden truths. That is Wisdom, not Intelligence.
In my games, a Religion (Wisdom) would be used to recall lore and meaning from religious texts, prayers and rituals as well as particular sub-groups, organisation, titles and etiquette regarding the cult or religion you belong to. You can still apply it in the sense of recalling information about religion, but unlike recalling the cold facts that you might with a History roll, for example, it would be more about discerning the symbolic meaning in the subtext. There are literal orders within the Catholic Church dedicated to this type of learning. How much do you know about the Jesuits, the Premonstratensians or the Bethlemite Brothers? How much does an average Catholic priest know about Gnostic sects?
When are you going to need the subtext of a religious story in a game? And why are we delegating something so incredibly subjective as personal significance to a pass/fail roll?
Also, why would a Cleric have to roll to know stuff like prayers or sects of their own religion? I'm pretty sure most Catholic priests don't have to roll every time they want to remember that Protestants exist.
In the context of a Cleric, it would serve as a form of internalised guidance in all sorts of matter of faith.
But... how would it actually work in a game? The Cleric doesn't know what decision to make, rolls a Wisdom (Religion) check, and then the DM has to dictate to the player what their faith would deem morally good? As if they just have that answer on hand?
Well, I’ve explained how and it does depend upon each different scenario context. If there are religious symbols on the wall of a dungeon, for example, the check could be made to relate it to basic religious teachings or deeper truths and meanings if the roll is better. So, it would be akin to a Tarot card reader knowing the basic meaning of drawn card, but a deeper reading being understood by a more wise practitioner in relation to other cards drawn. A better roll could also give guidance about how best to interpret the symbolism about what to do next for the most benefit.
Yeah, see, there you still have the issue of expecting the DM to be able to give an in-depth tarot card reading of anything that could have religious significance whenever a character succeeds a roll.
And a Cleric would need to know all sorts of different prayers and sects that may not be well known or important to ascertain if seeking clues in different situations.
Yeah, I'm sure situations where you need to know a specific prayer of your own religion to get a vital clue abound in the average game. They'd certainly show up far more often than checks that covers the practices, histories, beliefs, and symbols of all religions across the world.
As somebody was quick to point out before, it depends on your game. However. in my game, the current use of Religion proficiency is frequently ignored. Outside of religious types who needs to know about Religion?
Characters who live in a world with living, active, and interventionist deities could need to know about religion. Characters who hear verifiable stories of fiendish incursions and celestial boons, maybe. Characters who have a nonzero chance of travelling to the godsdamned Hells themselves might find one or two applications. And why would religious types need to know any more about religion than other adventurers, for the sake of a campaign? You should be on an adventure, not making rolls about which of two disputing theologists you side with.
And becoming an expert in your the history and other sects of your faith is a matter of Wisdom?
Yes. Matters of faith don’t rely upon actual facts as much as they do upon personal meaning. Religions teach parables, sermons and gods ‘moving in mysterious ways’ rather than hard evidence or logic. While the unfaithful might only perceive random conincidental events, a character proficient in Religion might perceive hidden truths. That is Wisdom, not Intelligence.
Huh? I wasn't talking about matters of faith, I was talking about facts. Specifically, the facts that you said Wisdom (Religion) would apply to. Personal meaning might be important to determine how a character feels about them, but knowing the names, origins, founders, basic principles, and similar things of other sects in your religion is not done through personal meaning. It is done through, well, just knowing them.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
"Matters of faith" are an RP thing, not a skill thing. As the game is designed, you don't roll a d20 for that anymore than you roll a d20 to determine if your character enjoyed the latest course at a fancy banquet or if they like the properties of a magic item they found.
Also, keep in mind that while IRL religions are mostly grounded in abstract philosophies and similar concepts, in D&D the baseline format is that deities objectively exist and have a lot more empirically observable aspects to how they interact with the setting than I've observed out in our world to date. You really just cannot apply what religion means to you IRL to the baseline definitions D&D uses, even after their attempt to go "setting agnostic". Which is not to say that you can't run your homebrew setting on "divine magic just happens, there's no hard proof that any gods/forces/etc. are out there", but literally the first core assumption listed in the 2014 DMG is "Gods Oversee the World. The gods are real and embody a variety of beliefs, with each god claiming dominion over an aspect of the world, such as war, forests, or the sea. [...] While some folk might refuse to honor the gods, none can deny their existence." By this principle, what the gods want is not a nebulous philosophical field; they have open lines of communication. Again, not dictating a single "Way Things Are In D&D", but it is very clear that their intended default concept is one where yes, there is a great deal of concrete information when it comes to the various deities, their values, and the principles and practices of their followers.
"Matters of faith" are an RP thing, not a skill thing. As the game is designed, you don't roll a d20 for that anymore than you roll a d20 to determine if your character enjoyed the latest course at a fancy banquet or if they like the properties of a magic item they found.
Well, I also have Runequest which is a game very much rooted in systems that simulate religious connections through mythology. It is a skill-based game that has mechanics precisely for this. It is a doable thing in a RP. Moreover, the whole development of a Wisdom Ability score, as a Cleric primary ability score, suggests that there can be a mechanic about spiritual connectiveness in the rules.
Also, keep in mind that while IRL religions are mostly grounded in abstract philosophies and similar concepts, in D&D the baseline format is that deities objectively exist and have a lot more empirically observable aspects to how they interact with the setting than I've observed out in our world to date. You really just cannot apply what religion means to you IRL to the baseline definitions D&D uses, even after their attempt to go "setting agnostic". Which is not to say that you can't run your homebrew setting on "divine magic just happens, there's no hard proof that any gods/forces/etc. are out there", but literally the first core assumption listed in the 2014 DMG is "Gods Oversee the World. The gods are real and embody a variety of beliefs, with each god claiming dominion over an aspect of the world, such as war, forests, or the sea. [...] While some folk might refuse to honor the gods, none can deny their existence." By this principle, what the gods want is not a nebulous philosophical field; they have open lines of communication. Again, not dictating a single "Way Things Are In D&D", but it is very clear that their intended default concept is one where yes, there is a great deal of concrete information when it comes to the various deities, their values, and the principles and practices of their followers
As I say, there are RPGs that exist that do this sort of thing a lot already. While I certainly acknowledge that D&D is a game that incorporates myths and legends as ‘real’ rather than what occurs in real-world religions, I do still feel that a Religion skill in the game could be enhanced by considering how characters in the game might otherwise think about its uses. Indeed, while we are discussing Medicine skill as well, I could actually see a case of a fantasy character using their Religion (Wisdom) skill roll to make a little prayer that replicates the same stabilising effect on characters reduced to 0HP that prevents them from dying, for example.
The most recent character I've played who made heavy use of the Religion skill is the sorc/fighter multiclass who was raised in a cult and now fights against them
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Uh, that's an amazing twist! 😅
When are you going to need the subtext of a religious story in a game? And why are we delegating something so incredibly subjective as personal significance to a pass/fail roll?
Also, why would a Cleric have to roll to know stuff like prayers or sects of their own religion? I'm pretty sure most Catholic priests don't have to roll every time they want to remember that Protestants exist.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
On the contrary, their Religion modifier is simply too high to fail the knowledge check on such a low DC. They'd still need to roll to remember specific details that are more obscure.
In the context of a Cleric, it would serve as a form of internalised guidance in all sorts of matter of faith.
And a Cleric would need to know all sorts of different prayers and sects that may not be well known or important to ascertain if seeking clues in different situations. I would categorically tell you that an average Catholic priest absolutely doesn’t know everything about the whole history of their faith or other sects. They’d need to consult experts in their own orders or become expert themselves.
But... how would it actually work in a game? The Cleric doesn't know what decision to make, rolls a Wisdom (Religion) check, and then the DM has to dictate to the player what their faith would deem morally good? As if they just have that answer on hand?
Yeah, I'm sure situations where you need to know a specific prayer of your own religion to get a vital clue abound in the average game. They'd certainly show up far more often than checks that covers the practices, histories, beliefs, and symbols of all religions across the world.
And becoming an expert in the history and other sects of your faith is a matter of Wisdom?
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Well, I’ve explained how and it does depend upon each different scenario context. If there are religious symbols on the wall of a dungeon, for example, the check could be made to relate it to basic religious teachings or deeper truths and meanings if the roll is better. So, it would be akin to a Tarot card reader knowing the basic meaning of drawn card, but a deeper reading being understood by a more wise practitioner in relation to other cards drawn. A better roll could also give guidance about how best to interpret the symbolism about what to do next for the most benefit.
As somebody was quick to point out before, it depends on your game. However. in my game, the current use of Religion proficiency is frequently ignored. Outside of religious types who needs to know about Religion?
Yes. Matters of faith don’t rely upon actual facts as much as they do upon personal meaning. Religions teach parables, sermons and gods ‘moving in mysterious ways’ rather than hard evidence or logic. While the unfaithful might only perceive random conincidental events, a character proficient in Religion might perceive hidden truths. That is Wisdom, not Intelligence.
Yeah, see, there you still have the issue of expecting the DM to be able to give an in-depth tarot card reading of anything that could have religious significance whenever a character succeeds a roll.
Characters who live in a world with living, active, and interventionist deities could need to know about religion. Characters who hear verifiable stories of fiendish incursions and celestial boons, maybe. Characters who have a nonzero chance of travelling to the godsdamned Hells themselves might find one or two applications. And why would religious types need to know any more about religion than other adventurers, for the sake of a campaign? You should be on an adventure, not making rolls about which of two disputing theologists you side with.
Huh? I wasn't talking about matters of faith, I was talking about facts. Specifically, the facts that you said Wisdom (Religion) would apply to. Personal meaning might be important to determine how a character feels about them, but knowing the names, origins, founders, basic principles, and similar things of other sects in your religion is not done through personal meaning. It is done through, well, just knowing them.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
"Matters of faith" are an RP thing, not a skill thing. As the game is designed, you don't roll a d20 for that anymore than you roll a d20 to determine if your character enjoyed the latest course at a fancy banquet or if they like the properties of a magic item they found.
Also, keep in mind that while IRL religions are mostly grounded in abstract philosophies and similar concepts, in D&D the baseline format is that deities objectively exist and have a lot more empirically observable aspects to how they interact with the setting than I've observed out in our world to date. You really just cannot apply what religion means to you IRL to the baseline definitions D&D uses, even after their attempt to go "setting agnostic". Which is not to say that you can't run your homebrew setting on "divine magic just happens, there's no hard proof that any gods/forces/etc. are out there", but literally the first core assumption listed in the 2014 DMG is "Gods Oversee the World. The gods are real and embody a variety of beliefs, with each god claiming dominion over an aspect of the world, such as war, forests, or the sea. [...] While some folk might refuse to honor the gods, none can deny their existence." By this principle, what the gods want is not a nebulous philosophical field; they have open lines of communication. Again, not dictating a single "Way Things Are In D&D", but it is very clear that their intended default concept is one where yes, there is a great deal of concrete information when it comes to the various deities, their values, and the principles and practices of their followers.
Well, I also have Runequest which is a game very much rooted in systems that simulate religious connections through mythology. It is a skill-based game that has mechanics precisely for this. It is a doable thing in a RP. Moreover, the whole development of a Wisdom Ability score, as a Cleric primary ability score, suggests that there can be a mechanic about spiritual connectiveness in the rules.
As I say, there are RPGs that exist that do this sort of thing a lot already. While I certainly acknowledge that D&D is a game that incorporates myths and legends as ‘real’ rather than what occurs in real-world religions, I do still feel that a Religion skill in the game could be enhanced by considering how characters in the game might otherwise think about its uses. Indeed, while we are discussing Medicine skill as well, I could actually see a case of a fantasy character using their Religion (Wisdom) skill roll to make a little prayer that replicates the same stabilising effect on characters reduced to 0HP that prevents them from dying, for example.
Stabilising a dying creature by a prayer to invoke divine intervention? That sounds like the Spare the Dying cantrip! 😊