You're making a lot of assertions, but you don't have any text to back those assertions up. I do.
That's genuinely hilarious. We're using the exact same text
If your claim is that I need corroborating text from elsewhere, then so do you
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You're making a lot of assertions, but you don't have any text to back those assertions up. I do.
That's genuinely hilarious. We're using the exact same text
If your claim is that I need corroborating text from elsewhere, then so do you
No, my claim is that you need to make an actual argument and not just say things. The text we're using does not say what you say it does. I have shown that the text talks about both the target's brain and the target's body's brain, establishing an equivalence between the target and its body. You've shown the text using both the target and the target's body, but you haven't made any argument at all about how that leads to a requirement that they be distinct. You've just asserted that without support.
I will say that you can make a case for the target still being alive in some sense via that use of protection from evil and good, which requires a willing creature as a target. But since the statblock is already creating a new special case for its use, I'm not sure that really carries much weight
EDIT: I mean, how 'willing' can a creature without a brain really be
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
"A dead creature has no Hit Points and can’t regain them unless it is first revived by magic such as the Raise Dead or Revivify spell. When such a spell is cast, the spirit knows who is casting it and can refuse. The spirit of a dead creature has left the body and departed for the Outer Planes, and reviving the creature requires calling the spirit back."
Power Word Kill kills a target with no mention of reducing HP to zero. If the Magic Jar spell ends or the container is destroyed, you can die regardless of HP.
Is the body HP acting as creature HP or as an object barrier's HP?
As written, the target creature remains a creature (rather than a corpse; thus, effects that raise dead are ineffective) until the intellect devourer leaves or is forced out, at which point the target dies unless the brain is restored within 1 round (other than a major wish, no spell I'm aware of can do this, as regenerate takes more than 1 round and no other spells even address missing body parts).
As this is an effect that would kill the target without doing damage, death ward will in fact cancel it.
If it truly works as some say, where the creature is considered alive, then Death Ward would only prevent death for a round. There's no reason the death being prevented in the trigger would leave the body alive moving forward. At most it would extend the body's restoration timer by a single round.
So you are saying if an Intellect Devourer is inside a humanoid creature, and that humanoid creature had Death Ward placed on them before the iD body theft the creature, the Intellect Devourer can’t be removed by protection from good or evil, which triggers the Death Ward instant killed option causing the effect that would kill the creature, the devourer being driven out, to stop from occurring?
No. It would prevent the actual death from occurring one round later, as death is not an instantaneous effect of the ID leaving or being removed, it is an instantaneous effect that occurs one round later (what happens after that is unclear; probably a body that is incapacitated until regenerate is cast).
So you are saying if an Intellect Devourer is inside a humanoid creature, and that humanoid creature had Death Ward placed on them before the iD body theft the creature, the Intellect Devourer can’t be removed by protection from good or evil, which triggers the Death Ward instant killed option causing the effect that would kill the creature, the devourer being driven out, to stop from occurring?
No. It would prevent the actual death from occurring one round later, as death is not an instantaneous effect of the ID leaving or being removed, it is an instantaneous effect that occurs one round later (what happens after that is unclear; probably a body that is incapacitated until regenerate is cast).
"If the spell is still in effect when the target is subjected to an effect that would kill it instantly without dealing damage, that effect is negated against the target, and the spell ends."
I'd say that in this case death ward would only extend the life of the creature by one round since it only negates the effect against the target once (ie death by having no brain) ... however, a round later, the body still has no brain and death ward is expended resulting in the creature actually dying if it still doesn't have a brain :)
I'd say that in this case death ward would only extend the life of the creature by one round since it only negates the effect against the target once (ie death by having no brain) ... however, a round later, the body still has no brain and death ward is expended resulting in the creature actually dying if it still doesn't have a brain :)
Well, the intellect devourer doesn't say "a creature that ends its turn without a brain dies" or some such repeatable effect, it just says they die a round later. If they don't die... no further death effects are specified.
I'd say that in this case death ward would only extend the life of the creature by one round since it only negates the effect against the target once (ie death by having no brain) ... however, a round later, the body still has no brain and death ward is expended resulting in the creature actually dying if it still doesn't have a brain :)
Well, the intellect devourer doesn't say "a creature that ends its turn without a brain dies" or some such repeatable effect, it just says they die a round later. If they don't die... no further death effects are specified.
On the other hand, if the effect is that they die a round later, then it doesn't instantaneously kill them, and death ward provides no benefit whatsoever.
On the other hand, if the effect is that they die a round later, then it doesn't instantaneously kill them, and death ward provides no benefit whatsoever.
Some effects and readings in 5e are intended to be read as common-sense readings.
If you're going to rule that a person without a brain can survive because they managed to get past a single round without dying, stop playing D&D.
Technically the ability doesn't say the creature can't use their abilities in that round, does that mean they can still attack in those 6 seconds without a brain now that they aren't a puppet?
On the other hand, if the effect is that they die a round later, then it doesn't instantaneously kill them, and death ward provides no benefit whatsoever.
It is instant death one round later.
That's a contradiction in terms. One round later is definitionally not instant.
That's a contradiction in terms. One round later is definitionally not instant.
They go from normal hit points to dead in an instant, without involving hit point loss or death checks.
That's an very limited view of the situation. By that logic, literally any effect that kills a creature is "instant" because there's one instant in which the creature goes from alive to dead. The dying condition, for example: the effect applies and then 3-5 rounds later you die in an instant. I think it's extremely clear that when the text says "an effect that would kill it instantly without dealing damage" what it means is an effect that kills the creature immediately upon application of the effect.
That's an very limited view of the situation. By that logic, literally any effect that kills a creature is "instant" because there's one instant in which the creature goes from alive to dead.
The point of that text in death ward is to cover effects that wouldn't be stopped by "The first time the target would drop to 0 Hit Points before the spell ends, the target instead drops to 1 Hit Point, and the spell ends." So yes, any effect that kills a creature without reducing the creature to zero hit points is covered.
That's an very limited view of the situation. By that logic, literally any effect that kills a creature is "instant" because there's one instant in which the creature goes from alive to dead.
The point of that text in death ward is to cover effects that wouldn't be stopped by "The first time the target would drop to 0 Hit Points before the spell ends, the target instead drops to 1 Hit Point, and the spell ends." So yes, any effect that kills a creature without reducing the creature to zero hit points is covered.
I get what you're saying but I don't buy it. The protection you describe would be achieved by not specifying "instantly." The only thing adding that word can achieve is excluding effects that take time to kill you.
[EDIT] I'm loathe to use dictionaries as arguments, but I do want to add that the way you're interpreting the word "instantly," as "done within one instant," is not a definition that's given by Wiktionary, Merriam-Webster, or the OED, all three of which agree that "instantly" means "without delay" or similar.
I get what you're saying but I don't buy it. The protection you describe would be achieved by not specifying "instantly." The only thing adding that word can achieve is excluding effects that take time to kill you.
[EDIT] I'm loathe to use dictionaries as arguments, but I do want to add that the way you're interpreting the word "instantly," as "done within one instant," is not a definition that's given by Wiktionary, Merriam-Webster, or the OED, all three of which agree that "instantly" means "without delay" or similar.
Fair point, but there is not gradual change. You don't fail three saves. Everything ticks by unchanged until you hit the appropriate tick in the initiative order and then the body goes from whatever state to dead, immediately. It's not dying and then dead. It's waiting for the level 2 party to cast Wish and then dead. When the death happens, it happens instantly, without delay. At which point, even the resurrection options are limited, because the corpse is missing a brain.
5e isn't as precise as 3.x so it is fuzzier than it should be.
Fair point, but there is not gradual change. You don't fail three saves. Everything ticks by unchanged until you hit the appropriate tick in the initiative order and then the body goes from whatever state to dead, immediately. It's not dying and then dead. It's waiting for the level 2 party to cast Wish and then dead. When the death happens, it happens instantly, without delay. At which point, even the resurrection options are limited, because the corpse is missing a brain.
Fair point, but there is not gradual change. You don't fail three saves. Everything ticks by unchanged until you hit the appropriate tick in the initiative order and then the body goes from whatever state to dead, immediately. It's not dying and then dead. It's waiting for the level 2 party to cast Wish and then dead. When the death happens, it happens instantly, without delay. At which point, even the resurrection options are limited, because the corpse is missing a brain.
Yes, and that's part of the point. You need a 7th magic to restore the character (I'm not counting Reincarnate as it changes the character) after falling to a CR 2 encounter. It's absurd.
As written, the target creature remains a creature (rather than a corpse; thus, effects that raise dead are ineffective) until the intellect devourer leaves or is forced out, at which point the target dies unless the brain is restored within 1 round (other than a major wish, no spell I'm aware of can do this, as regenerate takes more than 1 round and no other spells even address missing body parts).
As this is an effect that would kill the target without doing damage, death ward will in fact cancel it.
I mean, a Zombie is a creature, but it is not the original creature who is no longer alive.
All the resurrections spells tell you to touch a creature or a humanoid (for Reincarnate) that is dead. "Creature" does not indicate that it is living, unliving, or otherwise.
If a creature gets nommed by an Intellect Devourer, but they had a clone, does the soul get transferred to the clone when the Intellect Devourer hops in the cockpit or one round after exiting? That's not really clear. I am of the opinion that they would be when the original creature no longer has a brain. At that point, they died (instantly).
That's genuinely hilarious. We're using the exact same text
If your claim is that I need corroborating text from elsewhere, then so do you
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
No, my claim is that you need to make an actual argument and not just say things. The text we're using does not say what you say it does. I have shown that the text talks about both the target's brain and the target's body's brain, establishing an equivalence between the target and its body. You've shown the text using both the target and the target's body, but you haven't made any argument at all about how that leads to a requirement that they be distinct. You've just asserted that without support.
I will say that you can make a case for the target still being alive in some sense via that use of protection from evil and good, which requires a willing creature as a target. But since the statblock is already creating a new special case for its use, I'm not sure that really carries much weight
EDIT: I mean, how 'willing' can a creature without a brain really be
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Power Word Kill kills a target with no mention of reducing HP to zero. If the Magic Jar spell ends or the container is destroyed, you can die regardless of HP.
Is the body HP acting as creature HP or as an object barrier's HP?
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
As written, the target creature remains a creature (rather than a corpse; thus, effects that raise dead are ineffective) until the intellect devourer leaves or is forced out, at which point the target dies unless the brain is restored within 1 round (other than a major wish, no spell I'm aware of can do this, as regenerate takes more than 1 round and no other spells even address missing body parts).
As this is an effect that would kill the target without doing damage, death ward will in fact cancel it.
If it truly works as some say, where the creature is considered alive, then Death Ward would only prevent death for a round. There's no reason the death being prevented in the trigger would leave the body alive moving forward. At most it would extend the body's restoration timer by a single round.
No. It would prevent the actual death from occurring one round later, as death is not an instantaneous effect of the ID leaving or being removed, it is an instantaneous effect that occurs one round later (what happens after that is unclear; probably a body that is incapacitated until regenerate is cast).
"If the spell is still in effect when the target is subjected to an effect that would kill it instantly without dealing damage, that effect is negated against the target, and the spell ends."
I'd say that in this case death ward would only extend the life of the creature by one round since it only negates the effect against the target once (ie death by having no brain) ... however, a round later, the body still has no brain and death ward is expended resulting in the creature actually dying if it still doesn't have a brain :)
Well, the intellect devourer doesn't say "a creature that ends its turn without a brain dies" or some such repeatable effect, it just says they die a round later. If they don't die... no further death effects are specified.
On the other hand, if the effect is that they die a round later, then it doesn't instantaneously kill them, and death ward provides no benefit whatsoever.
It is instant death one round later.
Some effects and readings in 5e are intended to be read as common-sense readings.
If you're going to rule that a person without a brain can survive because they managed to get past a single round without dying, stop playing D&D.
Technically the ability doesn't say the creature can't use their abilities in that round, does that mean they can still attack in those 6 seconds without a brain now that they aren't a puppet?
That's a contradiction in terms. One round later is definitionally not instant.
They go from normal hit points to dead in an instant, without involving hit point loss or death checks.
That's an very limited view of the situation. By that logic, literally any effect that kills a creature is "instant" because there's one instant in which the creature goes from alive to dead. The dying condition, for example: the effect applies and then 3-5 rounds later you die in an instant. I think it's extremely clear that when the text says "an effect that would kill it instantly without dealing damage" what it means is an effect that kills the creature immediately upon application of the effect.
The point of that text in death ward is to cover effects that wouldn't be stopped by "The first time the target would drop to 0 Hit Points before the spell ends, the target instead drops to 1 Hit Point, and the spell ends." So yes, any effect that kills a creature without reducing the creature to zero hit points is covered.
I get what you're saying but I don't buy it. The protection you describe would be achieved by not specifying "instantly." The only thing adding that word can achieve is excluding effects that take time to kill you.
[EDIT] I'm loathe to use dictionaries as arguments, but I do want to add that the way you're interpreting the word "instantly," as "done within one instant," is not a definition that's given by Wiktionary, Merriam-Webster, or the OED, all three of which agree that "instantly" means "without delay" or similar.
Fair point, but there is not gradual change. You don't fail three saves. Everything ticks by unchanged until you hit the appropriate tick in the initiative order and then the body goes from whatever state to dead, immediately. It's not dying and then dead. It's waiting for the level 2 party to cast Wish and then dead. When the death happens, it happens instantly, without delay. At which point, even the resurrection options are limited, because the corpse is missing a brain.
5e isn't as precise as 3.x so it is fuzzier than it should be.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Well, you can't cast revivify or raise dead. Reincarnate will work as it creates a new body, and resurrection or true resurrection will work because they restore all missing body parts.
Yes, and that's part of the point. You need a 7th magic to restore the character (I'm not counting Reincarnate as it changes the character) after falling to a CR 2 encounter. It's absurd.
I mean, a Zombie is a creature, but it is not the original creature who is no longer alive.
All the resurrections spells tell you to touch a creature or a humanoid (for Reincarnate) that is dead. "Creature" does not indicate that it is living, unliving, or otherwise.
If a creature gets nommed by an Intellect Devourer, but they had a clone, does the soul get transferred to the clone when the Intellect Devourer hops in the cockpit or one round after exiting? That's not really clear. I am of the opinion that they would be when the original creature no longer has a brain. At that point, they died (instantly).
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.