If someone has their heart removed, and then over a period of hours another heart is installed and started up, is that person dead?
Does your self reside in the heart? No. It does not. You might as well be talking about a blood transfusion, or nail clippings.
In a very real sense, you are your brain. Everything that makes you you, is in the brain. If the brain dies, the person is gone.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
I mean, a Zombie is a creature, but it is not the original creature who is no longer alive.
All the resurrections spells tell you to touch a creature or a humanoid (for Reincarnate) that is dead. "Creature" does not indicate that it is living, unliving, or otherwise.
If a creature gets nommed by an Intellect Devourer, but they had a clone, does the soul get transferred to the clone when the Intellect Devourer hops in the cockpit or one round after exiting? That's not really clear. I am of the opinion that they would be when the original creature no longer has a brain. At that point, they died (instantly).
As written, they don't die until one round after exiting. It's a plausible enough house rule to say that getting your brain eaten is in fact death, but as written it isn't.
For the people saying the host is not dead after having their brain destroyed, are you saying you view them as permanently stunned/incapacitated instead?
How would you rule if some effect restored their INT -- greater restoration, say -- even though their brain is destroyed?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
In the real world, yeah I'd agree. But in dnd, I am more inclined to say you are your soul. And I would make a clear distinction between your soul and brain. Look at plasmoids, they have no brain, but I would say they have soul.
Futhermore, if you are "not dead" as by the text of the intellect devourer, does that mean you can be revived by spells that would raise the dead?
For the people saying the host is not dead after having their brain destroyed, are you saying you view them as permanently stunned/incapacitated instead?
How would you rule if some effect restored their INT -- greater restoration, say -- even though their brain is destroyed?
Rules as writen, I think they would be okay again, even if they have no brain. Which I think is funny and obviously not how it should be ruled.
But remember, you do not need to have an int of 0 to be body thiefted, you need to be incappacited.
In the real world, yeah I'd agree. But in dnd, I am more inclined to say you are your soul. And I would make a clear distinction between your soul and brain. Look at plasmoids, they have no brain, but I would say they have soul.
Futhermore, if you are "not dead" as by the text of the intellect devourer, does that mean you can be revived by spells that would raise the dead?
Ok - let's try to work with that.
You are your soul. But you've lost your brain. Where, precisely, does losing your soul differ from losing your brain. In other words, what abilities do you retain - because you still have your soul - now that your brain is gone?
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
In the real world, yeah I'd agree. But in dnd, I am more inclined to say you are your soul. And I would make a clear distinction between your soul and brain. Look at plasmoids, they have no brain, but I would say they have soul.
Futhermore, if you are "not dead" as by the text of the intellect devourer, does that mean you can be revived by spells that would raise the dead?
Ok - let's try to work with that.
You are your soul. But you've lost your brain. Where, precisely, does losing your soul differ from losing your brain. In other words, what abilities do you retain - because you still have your soul - now that your brain is gone?
What do you mean with: "what abilities do you retain"
I am not following. Could you elaborate on what you mean?
I mean, a Zombie is a creature, but it is not the original creature who is no longer alive.
All the resurrections spells tell you to touch a creature or a humanoid (for Reincarnate) that is dead. "Creature" does not indicate that it is living, unliving, or otherwise.
If a creature gets nommed by an Intellect Devourer, but they had a clone, does the soul get transferred to the clone when the Intellect Devourer hops in the cockpit or one round after exiting? That's not really clear. I am of the opinion that they would be when the original creature no longer has a brain. At that point, they died (instantly).
As written, they don't die until one round after exiting. It's a plausible enough house rule to say that getting your brain eaten is in fact death, but as written it isn't.
The creature is effectively decapitated, but not dead? If this were 3.x, the wording was always very precise. 5e is looser. I can't justify that a creature is alive without a brain. Instead, it's a meat suit for an Intellect Devourer that doesn't rot because the Intellect Devourer is performing the brain role of telling the lungs to breathe, the heart to pump, etc.
For reference, even though it obviously doesn't apply to 5e, in 3.5, eating the brain explicitly killed the target if they weren't already dead. Feel free to take that as support that brainless = dead or that they deliberately changed it. However, if you want to take it as a deliberate change, please consider "to what end?" This isn't a save or die spell mitigated. It is still automatic against a helpless creature (previously it was helpless or dead). Also for reference, it was CR 7 back then.
For the people saying the host is not dead after having their brain destroyed, are you saying you view them as permanently stunned/incapacitated instead?
How would you rule if some effect restored their INT -- greater restoration, say -- even though their brain is destroyed?
Rules as writen, I think they would be okay again, even if they have no brain. Which I think is funny and obviously not how it should be ruled.
But remember, you do not need to have an int of 0 to be body thiefted, you need to be incappacited.
Good point. Here's another one for the "RAW it doesn't mean dead" crowd: what happens to a creature that is incapacitated by means other than failing a saving throw against the ID's Devour Intellect attack... and that condition is then lifted after their brain has been consumed?
For example: a character gets hit with a mind flayer's Mind Blast and is stunned (which includes being incapacitated) -- per the mind flayer's stat block, they get a saving throw at the end of their turns to remove the condition. An intellect devourer then jumps into the character's skull and eats their brain before they get their turn
Do they still get the saving throw? If not, why not? What happens if they pass it?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
What do you mean with: "what abilities do you retain"
I am not following. Could you elaborate on what you mean?
Ok - so, like, does your heart beat? Can you remember your life, or who you are? Can you ... go into the kitchen and make a ham and cheese sandwich? In fact, if you retain your soul, but not your brain, can you do anything at all? Or are you, effectively, dead as a doornail?
Is my point =)
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
For the people saying the host is not dead after having their brain destroyed, are you saying you view them as permanently stunned/incapacitated instead?
How would you rule if some effect restored their INT -- greater restoration, say -- even though their brain is destroyed?
Greater restoration doesn't restore missing body parts, but an effect that does so, such as regenerate, would restore them to normal action.
What do you mean with: "what abilities do you retain"
I am not following. Could you elaborate on what you mean?
Ok - so, like, does your heart beat? Can you remember your life, or who you are? Can you ... go into the kitchen and make a ham and cheese sandwich? In fact, if you retain your soul, but not your brain, can you do anything at all? Or are you, effectively, dead as a doornail?
Is my point =)
Sorry, but I honestly do not get the point you are trying to make.
Uhm a ghost is a soul without a brain, and if it has like telekenetic powers it can make a ham and cheese sandwich.
Sorry, I don't really get the point you are trying to make 😅
For the people saying the host is not dead after having their brain destroyed, are you saying you view them as permanently stunned/incapacitated instead?
How would you rule if some effect restored their INT -- greater restoration, say -- even though their brain is destroyed?
Greater restoration doesn't restore missing body parts, but an effect that does so, such as regenerate, would restore them to normal action.
Greater Restoration eliminates a reduction in an ability score
The intellect devourer's Devour Intellect attack can stun and reduce INT to 0, and the stunned condition gets removed if the target regains at least one point of INT. So if they're not dead even though they have no brain, what happens if you cast greater restoration on them?
"RAW", per the people claiming the target is still alive without a brain, there is no requirement to have a physical brain to have your INT restored
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Greater restoration might not restore body parts, but it does restore someone's stats. So the person is saying that not having a brain would put your INT down to 0, which would be undone by greater restoration, making it so a person would have their mental stats and abilities, even without their brain.
Greater Restoration eliminates a reduction in an ability score
Greater Restoration will cure the Devour Intellect effect, but it has no effect on the Body Thief ability.
Great. How does that work in terms of game play, then?
The character physically has no brain. It's been replaced by an intellect devourer that is controlling their body, but they are not incapacitated. Do they get turns? What are they allowed to do on a turn?
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Great. How does that work in terms of game play, then?
Welcome to poorly written game rules episode 732?
That excuse works in some cases, but not this one
In this case the rules work just fine if you recognize that having no physical brain means you are, in fact, dead, and that the writers of the rules didn't think that would be necessary to spell out
If your RAW argument leads to impossible or incomprehensible situations, sometimes it's not the rules that are the problem
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
In this case the rules work just fine if you recognize that having no physical brain means you are, in fact, dead, and that the writers of the rules didn't think that would be necessary to spell out
The writers of the rules not only didn't spell that out, they specifically stated that it wasn't true. "The body then dies" means the body was alive up to that point.
In this case the rules work just fine if you recognize that having no physical brain means you are, in fact, dead, and that the writers of the rules didn't think that would be necessary to spell out
The writers of the rules not only didn't spell that out, they specifically stated that it wasn't true. "The body then dies" means the body was alive up to that point.
The body (being puppeted by the ID), as opposed to the character. The character died when their brain got etted
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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Does your self reside in the heart? No. It does not. You might as well be talking about a blood transfusion, or nail clippings.
In a very real sense, you are your brain. Everything that makes you you, is in the brain. If the brain dies, the person is gone.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
As written, they don't die until one round after exiting. It's a plausible enough house rule to say that getting your brain eaten is in fact death, but as written it isn't.
For the people saying the host is not dead after having their brain destroyed, are you saying you view them as permanently stunned/incapacitated instead?
How would you rule if some effect restored their INT -- greater restoration, say -- even though their brain is destroyed?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
In the real world, yeah I'd agree. But in dnd, I am more inclined to say you are your soul. And I would make a clear distinction between your soul and brain. Look at plasmoids, they have no brain, but I would say they have soul.
Futhermore, if you are "not dead" as by the text of the intellect devourer, does that mean you can be revived by spells that would raise the dead?
Rules as writen, I think they would be okay again, even if they have no brain. Which I think is funny and obviously not how it should be ruled.
But remember, you do not need to have an int of 0 to be body thiefted, you need to be incappacited.
Ok - let's try to work with that.
You are your soul. But you've lost your brain. Where, precisely, does losing your soul differ from losing your brain. In other words, what abilities do you retain - because you still have your soul - now that your brain is gone?
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
What do you mean with: "what abilities do you retain"
I am not following. Could you elaborate on what you mean?
The creature is effectively decapitated, but not dead? If this were 3.x, the wording was always very precise. 5e is looser. I can't justify that a creature is alive without a brain. Instead, it's a meat suit for an Intellect Devourer that doesn't rot because the Intellect Devourer is performing the brain role of telling the lungs to breathe, the heart to pump, etc.
For reference, even though it obviously doesn't apply to 5e, in 3.5, eating the brain explicitly killed the target if they weren't already dead. Feel free to take that as support that brainless = dead or that they deliberately changed it. However, if you want to take it as a deliberate change, please consider "to what end?" This isn't a save or die spell mitigated. It is still automatic against a helpless creature (previously it was helpless or dead). Also for reference, it was CR 7 back then.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Good point. Here's another one for the "RAW it doesn't mean dead" crowd: what happens to a creature that is incapacitated by means other than failing a saving throw against the ID's Devour Intellect attack... and that condition is then lifted after their brain has been consumed?
For example: a character gets hit with a mind flayer's Mind Blast and is stunned (which includes being incapacitated) -- per the mind flayer's stat block, they get a saving throw at the end of their turns to remove the condition. An intellect devourer then jumps into the character's skull and eats their brain before they get their turn
Do they still get the saving throw? If not, why not? What happens if they pass it?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ok - so, like, does your heart beat? Can you remember your life, or who you are? Can you ... go into the kitchen and make a ham and cheese sandwich? In fact, if you retain your soul, but not your brain, can you do anything at all? Or are you, effectively, dead as a doornail?
Is my point =)
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Greater restoration doesn't restore missing body parts, but an effect that does so, such as regenerate, would restore them to normal action.
Sorry, but I honestly do not get the point you are trying to make.
Uhm a ghost is a soul without a brain, and if it has like telekenetic powers it can make a ham and cheese sandwich.
Sorry, I don't really get the point you are trying to make 😅
Greater Restoration eliminates a reduction in an ability score
The intellect devourer's Devour Intellect attack can stun and reduce INT to 0, and the stunned condition gets removed if the target regains at least one point of INT. So if they're not dead even though they have no brain, what happens if you cast greater restoration on them?
"RAW", per the people claiming the target is still alive without a brain, there is no requirement to have a physical brain to have your INT restored
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Greater Restoration will cure the Devour Intellect effect, but it has no effect on the Body Thief ability.
Greater restoration might not restore body parts, but it does restore someone's stats. So the person is saying that not having a brain would put your INT down to 0, which would be undone by greater restoration, making it so a person would have their mental stats and abilities, even without their brain.
Great. How does that work in terms of game play, then?
The character physically has no brain. It's been replaced by an intellect devourer that is controlling their body, but they are not incapacitated. Do they get turns? What are they allowed to do on a turn?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Welcome to poorly written game rules episode 732?
That excuse works in some cases, but not this one
In this case the rules work just fine if you recognize that having no physical brain means you are, in fact, dead, and that the writers of the rules didn't think that would be necessary to spell out
If your RAW argument leads to impossible or incomprehensible situations, sometimes it's not the rules that are the problem
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The writers of the rules not only didn't spell that out, they specifically stated that it wasn't true. "The body then dies" means the body was alive up to that point.
The body (being puppeted by the ID), as opposed to the character. The character died when their brain got etted
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)