Yea the answer from @ThelenyiWhinlawis the correct one. If you follow what's lined out in the PHB then you pick your skills from your class after you get the skills from your background and thus there should be no duplicates and you are limited to the skills as specified by your class (so no free-whatever-you-like picks either).
The order is correct (but incomplete), but your conclusion is not.
Technically, the order of acquiring proficiencies is:
Record Background proficiencies (2 skills + 1 tool).
Record Class proficiencies (2+ skills, 0+ tools, 0+ musical instruments)
Record Species proficiencies (0+ skills. 0+ tools, 0+ musical instruments)
All Elves (a core species) get Perception proficiency which conflicts with 3 of the core backgrounds.
Looking at species beyond core, Tabaxi (Perception and Stealth) is in a worse situation conflicting with 6 of the core backgrounds.
However, even just the Core content is problematic and needs a method to resolve the conflicts.
Indeed. It’s interesting though that the 2024 Elves have been changed to have a choice of three skills (Perception , Insight or Survivall) for Keen Senses. The only other 2024 species that gains a skill proficiency is the Human, for whom there is a free choice. That suggests that the developers are aware of that risk and were providing more flexibility to help avoid it.(Personally I’d be inclined to give MotM elves the 2024 Keen Senses trait.)
Yea the answer from @ThelenyiWhinlawis the correct one. If you follow what's lined out in the PHB then you pick your skills from your class after you get the skills from your background and thus there should be no duplicates and you are limited to the skills as specified by your class (so no free-whatever-you-like picks either).
The order is correct (but incomplete), but your conclusion is not.
Technically, the order of acquiring proficiencies is:
Record Background proficiencies (2 skills + 1 tool).
Record Class proficiencies (2+ skills, 0+ tools, 0+ musical instruments)
Record Species proficiencies (0+ skills. 0+ tools, 0+ musical instruments)
All Elves (a core species) get Perception proficiency which conflicts with 3 of the core backgrounds.
Looking at species beyond core, Tabaxi (Perception and Stealth) is in a worse situation conflicting with 6 of the core backgrounds.
However, even just the Core content is problematic and needs a method to resolve the conflicts.
Indeed. It’s interesting though that the 2024 Elves have been changed to have a choice of three skills (Perception , Insight or Survivall) for Keen Senses. The only other 2024 species that gains a skill proficiency is the Human, for whom there is a free choice. That suggests that the developers are aware of that risk and were providing more flexibility to help avoid it.(Personally I’d be inclined to give MotM elves the 2024 Keen Senses trait.)
I hadn't notice the skill change (I checked, but I think I stopped at "Yup. They still have Keen Senses"). That may be a change going forward, but for now, it applies to all legacy content (and will be exacerbated by legacy backgrounds). Unfortunately, I am playing an Astral Elf which isn't considered an Elf, but not an Elf Subspecies.
Yea the answer from @ThelenyiWhinlawis the correct one. If you follow what's lined out in the PHB then you pick your skills from your class after you get the skills from your background and thus there should be no duplicates and you are limited to the skills as specified by your class (so no free-whatever-you-like picks either).
The order is correct (but incomplete), but your conclusion is not.
Technically, the order of acquiring proficiencies is:
Record Background proficiencies (2 skills + 1 tool).
Record Class proficiencies (2+ skills, 0+ tools, 0+ musical instruments)
Record Species proficiencies (0+ skills. 0+ tools, 0+ musical instruments)
All Elves (a core species) get Perception proficiency which conflicts with 3 of the core backgrounds.
Looking at species beyond core, Tabaxi (Perception and Stealth) is in a worse situation conflicting with 6 of the core backgrounds.
However, even just the Core content is problematic and needs a method to resolve the conflicts.
Indeed. It’s interesting though that the 2024 Elves have been changed to have a choice of three skills (Perception , Insight or Survivall) for Keen Senses. The only other 2024 species that gains a skill proficiency is the Human, for whom there is a free choice. That suggests that the developers are aware of that risk and were providing more flexibility to help avoid it.(Personally I’d be inclined to give MotM elves the 2024 Keen Senses trait.)
I hadn't notice the skill change (I checked, but I think I stopped at "Yup. They still have Keen Senses"). That may be a change going forward, but for now, it applies to all legacy content (and will be exacerbated by legacy backgrounds). Unfortunately, I am playing an Astral Elf which isn't considered an Elf, but not an Elf Subspecies.
There’s a handful of other species with fixed proficiencies: unfortunately, I think the only solution to those is “talk to your DM”.
I agree that this seems to be a problem and a bit of an oversight. But maybe the designers really don't want backgrounds ever to give a free proficiency. Maybe they want backgrounds to give the proficiencies that they give; that is certainly how they treat species and it makes sense. If your background really expresses what you've spent time becoming good at, then the proficiencies it provides really should reflect that -- just like the stat choices a background presents does. Maybe a limited choice might make sense, but maybe a character missing out on a proficiency is fine too.
So as someone suggested earlier, probably the best course of action right now (without rules for swapping these) is to put some thought into it before you start writing things down, and choose from your class skills that are not covered by species and background.
I agree that this seems to be a problem and a bit of an oversight. But maybe the designers really don't want backgrounds ever to give a free proficiency. Maybe they want backgrounds to give the proficiencies that they give; that is certainly how they treat species and it makes sense. If your background really expresses what you've spent time becoming good at, then the proficiencies it provides really should reflect that -- just like the stat choices a background presents does. Maybe a limited choice might make sense, but maybe a character missing out on a proficiency is fine too.
Changing Backgrounds to a choice of 2 skills from a list of 3 (maybe 4) skills probably would eliminate the issue. The Background stat choices are a terrible mistake; there was no reason to backpeddle from Tasha's.
So as someone suggested earlier, probably the best course of action right now (without rules for swapping these) is to put some thought into it before you start writing things down, and choose from your class skills that are not covered by species and background.
The conflict is only unavoidable between species and backgrounds
Lead to believe the following is in the basic rules in the proficiency section
"If a character would gain the same proficiency from two different sources, he or she can choose a different proficiency of the same kind (skill or tool) instead."
However since druid has other proficiencies besides insight and religion (acolyte background), would assume they choose different druid proficiencies from that list
So as someone suggested earlier, probably the best course of action right now (without rules for swapping these) is to put some thought into it before you start writing things down, and choose from your class skills that are not covered by species and background.
The conflict is only unavoidable between species and backgrounds
It is only unavoidable in so far as your choices are unavoidable. There are 10 options of species and 16 options of background in the PHB, correct?
Lead to believe the following is in the basic rules in the proficiency section
"If a character would gain the same proficiency from two different sources, he or she can choose a different proficiency of the same kind (skill or tool) instead."
Where is this? Is it in the 2014 basic rules? We're not talking about those rules in this thread and I cannot find it in the 2024 rules.
So as someone suggested earlier, probably the best course of action right now (without rules for swapping these) is to put some thought into it before you start writing things down, and choose from your class skills that are not covered by species and background.
The conflict is only unavoidable between species and backgrounds
It is only unavoidable in so far as your choices are unavoidable. There are 10 options of species and 16 options of background in the PHB, correct?
That's cutting off your nose to spite your face.
There's so many build aspects tied to your Backgrounds and there are only a few updated to 2024.
It's a conflict that had a resolution in 2014 and with the rearrangement of the creation order got dropped, potentially unintentionally.
That argument holds as much water as complaining wizards don’t get weapon mastery. Every build decision removes options. “Because the rules were different in a different game” has no bearing on the current rules.
Lead to believe the following is in the basic rules in the proficiency section
"If a character would gain the same proficiency from two different sources, he or she can choose a different proficiency of the same kind (skill or tool) instead."
Where is this? Is it in the 2014 basic rules? We're not talking about those rules in this thread and I cannot find it in the 2024 rules.
Same question here. I think that rule is not present in the 2024 PHB or DMG.
Lead to believe the following is in the basic rules in the proficiency section
"If a character would gain the same proficiency from two different sources, he or she can choose a different proficiency of the same kind (skill or tool) instead."
Where is this? Is it in the 2014 basic rules? We're not talking about those rules in this thread and I cannot find it in the 2024 rules.
i admit that i didnt check the others initially due to making the assumption that the 2014 basic rules were based of the 2014 phb, which is compatible with the 2024 phb (considering 2024 phb is backwards compatible) - my bad
and that writing at the start of the 2024 phb:
"What’s new in the 2024 Version? This is the 2024 version of the fifth edition Player’s Handbook. If you’ve read the 2014 version, much of this book will feel familiar, since the fundamental rules of the game are the same."
however i could be off the mark on my line of thinking anywho duplicates only happen if player refuses to choose proficiencies from their class that they dont already have/get from their background - atleast in my opinion
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Indeed. It’s interesting though that the 2024 Elves have been changed to have a choice of three skills (Perception , Insight or Survivall) for Keen Senses. The only other 2024 species that gains a skill proficiency is the Human, for whom there is a free choice. That suggests that the developers are aware of that risk and were providing more flexibility to help avoid it.(Personally I’d be inclined to give MotM elves the 2024 Keen Senses trait.)
I hadn't notice the skill change (I checked, but I think I stopped at "Yup. They still have Keen Senses"). That may be a change going forward, but for now, it applies to all legacy content (and will be exacerbated by legacy backgrounds). Unfortunately, I am playing an Astral Elf which isn't considered an Elf, but not an Elf Subspecies.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
There’s a handful of other species with fixed proficiencies: unfortunately, I think the only solution to those is “talk to your DM”.
Yea for Species the problem remains.
I agree that this seems to be a problem and a bit of an oversight. But maybe the designers really don't want backgrounds ever to give a free proficiency. Maybe they want backgrounds to give the proficiencies that they give; that is certainly how they treat species and it makes sense. If your background really expresses what you've spent time becoming good at, then the proficiencies it provides really should reflect that -- just like the stat choices a background presents does. Maybe a limited choice might make sense, but maybe a character missing out on a proficiency is fine too.
So as someone suggested earlier, probably the best course of action right now (without rules for swapping these) is to put some thought into it before you start writing things down, and choose from your class skills that are not covered by species and background.
Changing Backgrounds to a choice of 2 skills from a list of 3 (maybe 4) skills probably would eliminate the issue. The Background stat choices are a terrible mistake; there was no reason to backpeddle from Tasha's.
The conflict is only unavoidable between species and backgrounds
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
Lead to believe the following is in the basic rules in the proficiency section
"If a character would gain the same proficiency from two different sources, he or she can choose a different proficiency of the same kind (skill or tool) instead."
However since druid has other proficiencies besides insight and religion (acolyte background), would assume they choose different druid proficiencies from that list
Druids Choose 2: Animal Handling, Arcana, Insight, Medicine, Nature, Perception, Religion, or Survival
It is only unavoidable in so far as your choices are unavoidable. There are 10 options of species and 16 options of background in the PHB, correct?
Where is this? Is it in the 2014 basic rules? We're not talking about those rules in this thread and I cannot find it in the 2024 rules.
That's cutting off your nose to spite your face.
There's so many build aspects tied to your Backgrounds and there are only a few updated to 2024.
It's a conflict that had a resolution in 2014 and with the rearrangement of the creation order got dropped, potentially unintentionally.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
That argument holds as much water as complaining wizards don’t get weapon mastery. Every build decision removes options. “Because the rules were different in a different game” has no bearing on the current rules.
Same question here. I think that rule is not present in the 2024 PHB or DMG.
Some related posts:
yes its in the 2014 basic rules
its here:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/dnd/basic-rules-2014/personality-and-background#Backgrounds
i admit that i didnt check the others initially due to making the assumption that the 2014 basic rules were based of the 2014 phb, which is compatible with the 2024 phb (considering 2024 phb is backwards compatible) - my bad
and that writing at the start of the 2024 phb:
"What’s new in the 2024 Version?
This is the 2024 version of the fifth edition Player’s Handbook. If you’ve read the 2014 version, much of this book will feel familiar, since the fundamental rules of the game are the same."
however i could be off the mark on my line of thinking
anywho duplicates only happen if player refuses to choose proficiencies from their class that they dont already have/get from their background - atleast in my opinion