Some things automatically move the target, such as Repelling Blast Invocation. Grapple is not one of those. If you grapple a target you can attempt to move it, but if something else is also grappling it then they have the same ability to affect its movement as you do. You would need to do an opposed roll with the other grappler to succeed.
It simply does not make sense that someone could snatch a grappled target away from any other grappler, without so much as a roll for success.
The Grappledends if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range, which is the case after pushing, pulling or shoving a creature away.
Not to be confounded with the action of escaping a grapple, where a Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success.
It's one of those weird interactions that comes of switching Grappling from a Contested Check to a Saving Throw in 5e 2024. I'm hard-pressed to think of any other interactions where a "Contested Saving Throw" even exists.
If I were going to draw up a house rule for the situation I'd probably do something like this:
To Grapple an already-grappled target, against the wishes of a Foe Grappler, the Foe Grappler is the one who makes the saving throw against your Grappling DC, but if the Grapple Target is not Incapacitated, then the Grapple Target is the one who decides whether Foe Grappler uses the better or worse of their STR Save or DEX Save for the attempt.
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🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
It's one of those weird interactions that comes of switching Grappling from a Contested Check to a Saving Throw in 5e 2024. I'm hard-pressed to think of any other interactions where a "Contested Saving Throw" even exists.
The Dungeon Master Guide offer some guidelines on the subject of contests:
Calculated DCs
For some ability checks and most saving throws, the rules default to the following formula:
DC = 8 + ability modifier + Proficiency Bonus
This formula often sets the saving throw DC when a creature is casting a spell or using a special ability, but it can also apply to ability checks that are contests between two creatures. For example, if one creature is holding a door shut, use its Strength modifier and Proficiency Bonus to set the DC for opening the door. When another creature tries to force the door open, the creature makes a Strength (Athletics) check against that DC.
Another way to handle similar situations is to have one creature's ability check set the DC for another creature's check. That's how hiding works, for example: a hiding creature's total Dexterity (Stealth) check sets the DC for Wisdom (Perception) checks made to find the hidden creature.
It's one of those weird interactions that comes of switching Grappling from a Contested Check to a Saving Throw in 5e 2024.
Not really. 2014 had the same oddities, it's really just because grappled does not include any restrictions on being moved by external forces.
Does having the Grappled condition mean you can't get it again per the rule about effects of the same name not stacking? Or does the new one just override the old one?
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Does having the Grappled condition mean you can't get it again per the rule about effects of the same name not stacking? Or does the new one just override the old one?
Neither one. There is no rule about being unable to get the same condition twice, just that the effects don't stack.
The Grappledends if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range, which is the case after pushing, pulling or shoving a creature away.
Not to be confounded with the action of escaping a grapple, where a Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success.
Sure but there are no rules specifying what happens if you try to shove/pull/push a creature that is held in place by something else. Some effects have specific rules about other creatures pulling someone free of it, others don't.
Sure but there are no rules specifying what happens if you try to shove/pull/push a creature that is held in place by something else. Some effects have specific rules about other creatures pulling someone free of it, others don't.
Since being Grappledlimit your speed, but has otherwise no effect on forced movements of any kind, it effectively mean you can move without any ability check that require an action.
What effects have specific rules about other creatures pulling someone free of grapple?
Sure but there are no rules specifying what happens if you try to shove/pull/push a creature that is held in place by something else. Some effects have specific rules about other creatures pulling someone free of it, others don't.
Since being Grappledlimit your speed, but has otherwise no effect on forced movements of any kind, it effectively mean you can move without any ability check that require an action.
What effects have specific rules about other creatures pulling someone free of grapple?
Ensnaring Strike: "A creature restrained by the vines or one that can touch the creature can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. On a success, the target is freed."
Grasping Arrow (Arcane Archer): "The target or any creature that can reach it can use its action to remove the brambles with a successful Strength (Athletics) check against your Arcane Shot save DC."
However, I would also note there are lots of spells that are simply missing specific rules about other creatures freeing the target: Entangle, Black Tentacles, and Web all impose specifically the "restrained" condition, and specify that the target can make a Strength check to free themselves but are silent on other creatures doing the same. And because it is specifically "restrained" and not "grappled" the grapple rules about being moved out of reach technically don't apply (also because it is a spell effect so doesn't have a "reach"), but also don't say that moving a creature out of the area breaks it either. So RAW there is no way at all for another creature to free someone from those spells.
But anyway, it seems obvious to me that it just makes sense that either escaping yourself or someone else freeing you from something holding you in place should require the same amount of effort, thus require the same check. Because consider the alternative: an Octopus with STR = -3 can free a Goliath that is trapped within the jaws of a T-rex with an autosuccess if the Goliath is willing.
Sure but there are no rules specifying what happens if you try to shove/pull/push a creature that is held in place by something else. Some effects have specific rules about other creatures pulling someone free of it, others don't.
Since being Grappledlimit your speed, but has otherwise no effect on forced movements of any kind, it effectively mean you can move without any ability check that require an action.
What effects have specific rules about other creatures pulling someone free of grapple?
Ensnaring Strike: "A creature restrained by the vines or one that can touch the creature can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. On a success, the target is freed."
Grasping Arrow (Arcane Archer): "The target or any creature that can reach it can use its action to remove the brambles with a successful Strength (Athletics) check against your Arcane Shot save DC."
The Restrained condition similarly only affects your Speed and doesn't say anything about restricting forced movement. RAW there it no condition that affects forced movement. Technically even Merge with Stone doesn't have any effect on forced movement RAW. Same with Telekinesis, Earthen Grasp, Bigby's Hand, etc.... Yet I would bet every since person does believe they do affect forced movement because if they didn't then they couldn't lift people up because falling is forced movement. So if Telekinesis doesn't affect forced movement it cannot stop someone from falling which means you can't lift up anyone/anything with it.
A spell that inflict the Restrained condition with specific way out as an action is specific to it. Other effect that inflict the Restrained condition without such specific action is not then doable as you said.
Not sure i understand Merge With Stone, but if you meant what i think, a creature can't be moved into space or square it can't occupy, such as wall or ground, nor are you likely able to target such creature within Total Cover to push, pull or shove it away.
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Some things automatically move the target, such as Repelling Blast Invocation. Grapple is not one of those. If you grapple a target you can attempt to move it, but if something else is also grappling it then they have the same ability to affect its movement as you do. You would need to do an opposed roll with the other grappler to succeed.
It simply does not make sense that someone could snatch a grappled target away from any other grappler, without so much as a roll for success.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
The Grappled ends if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range, which is the case after pushing, pulling or shoving a creature away.
Not to be confounded with the action of escaping a grapple, where a Grappled creature can use its action to make a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the grapple’s escape DC, ending the condition on itself on a success.
It's one of those weird interactions that comes of switching Grappling from a Contested Check to a Saving Throw in 5e 2024. I'm hard-pressed to think of any other interactions where a "Contested Saving Throw" even exists.
If I were going to draw up a house rule for the situation I'd probably do something like this:
To Grapple an already-grappled target, against the wishes of a Foe Grappler, the Foe Grappler is the one who makes the saving throw against your Grappling DC, but if the Grapple Target is not Incapacitated, then the Grapple Target is the one who decides whether Foe Grappler uses the better or worse of their STR Save or DEX Save for the attempt.
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
The Dungeon Master Guide offer some guidelines on the subject of contests:
Not really. 2014 had the same oddities, it's really just because grappled does not include any restrictions on being moved by external forces.
Does having the Grappled condition mean you can't get it again per the rule about effects of the same name not stacking? Or does the new one just override the old one?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Neither one. There is no rule about being unable to get the same condition twice, just that the effects don't stack.
Sure but there are no rules specifying what happens if you try to shove/pull/push a creature that is held in place by something else. Some effects have specific rules about other creatures pulling someone free of it, others don't.
Since being Grappled limit your speed, but has otherwise no effect on forced movements of any kind, it effectively mean you can move without any ability check that require an action.
What effects have specific rules about other creatures pulling someone free of grapple?
Ensnaring Strike: "A creature restrained by the vines or one that can touch the creature can use its action to make a Strength check against your spell save DC. On a success, the target is freed."
Grasping Arrow (Arcane Archer): "The target or any creature that can reach it can use its action to remove the brambles with a successful Strength (Athletics) check against your Arcane Shot save DC."
However, I would also note there are lots of spells that are simply missing specific rules about other creatures freeing the target: Entangle, Black Tentacles, and Web all impose specifically the "restrained" condition, and specify that the target can make a Strength check to free themselves but are silent on other creatures doing the same. And because it is specifically "restrained" and not "grappled" the grapple rules about being moved out of reach technically don't apply (also because it is a spell effect so doesn't have a "reach"), but also don't say that moving a creature out of the area breaks it either. So RAW there is no way at all for another creature to free someone from those spells.
But anyway, it seems obvious to me that it just makes sense that either escaping yourself or someone else freeing you from something holding you in place should require the same amount of effort, thus require the same check. Because consider the alternative: an Octopus with STR = -3 can free a Goliath that is trapped within the jaws of a T-rex with an autosuccess if the Goliath is willing.
None of these inflict the Grappled condition.
The Restrained condition similarly only affects your Speed and doesn't say anything about restricting forced movement. RAW there it no condition that affects forced movement. Technically even Merge with Stone doesn't have any effect on forced movement RAW. Same with Telekinesis, Earthen Grasp, Bigby's Hand, etc.... Yet I would bet every since person does believe they do affect forced movement because if they didn't then they couldn't lift people up because falling is forced movement. So if Telekinesis doesn't affect forced movement it cannot stop someone from falling which means you can't lift up anyone/anything with it.
A spell that inflict the Restrained condition with specific way out as an action is specific to it. Other effect that inflict the Restrained condition without such specific action is not then doable as you said.
Not sure i understand Merge With Stone, but if you meant what i think, a creature can't be moved into space or square it can't occupy, such as wall or ground, nor are you likely able to target such creature within Total Cover to push, pull or shove it away.