Could a wizard cast wall of force between themselves and their foes, and the next round cast a ranged AOE spell (e.g., shatter, frostbite, toll the dead, sickening radiance, meteor swarm) on any foes still on the other side of the wall?
None of the spells given as examples have text that say the effects come from the caster to the targeted spot; they simply appear, thus not having to pierce the wall of force.
It could be argued that RAI wouldn't allow such casting through the wall but nothing about the actual wording seems to prevent it.
What do y'all think?
Would you like an enemy mage be able to do that to your party? Trap them in a dome of Wall of Force then cast Sickening Radiance on them?
Yes, an AoE usually works that way, but in the 2024 version of the spells, the wording "spreads around corners" has been removed from some. I'm also guessing the reason is the one Thezzaruz mentioned.
Ah. I didn't realize that it was a difference in specific spells. I don't know if it was their reasoning, hut honestly, I prefer the more consistent AoE rules as opposed to each spell defining what a sphere is.
Could a wizard cast wall of force between themselves and their foes, and the next round cast a ranged AOE spell (e.g., shatter, frostbite, toll the dead, sickening radiance, meteor swarm) on any foes still on the other side of the wall?
None of the spells given as examples have text that say the effects come from the caster to the targeted spot; they simply appear, thus not having to pierce the wall of force.
It could be argued that RAI wouldn't allow such casting through the wall but nothing about the actual wording seems to prevent it.
What do y'all think?
Would you like an enemy mage be able to do that to your party? Trap them in a dome of Wall of Force then cast Sickening Radiance on them?
Second, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If the party can do it, the enemy can do it. Enemy spellcasters are often intelligent and experienced, and should be expected to be as tactical and creative as the player characters. PCs should not expect enemy casters to simply do the predictable thing every time.
Could a wizard cast wall of force between themselves and their foes, and the next round cast a ranged AOE spell (e.g., shatter, frostbite, toll the dead, sickening radiance, meteor swarm) on any foes still on the other side of the wall?
None of the spells given as examples have text that say the effects come from the caster to the targeted spot; they simply appear, thus not having to pierce the wall of force.
It could be argued that RAI wouldn't allow such casting through the wall but nothing about the actual wording seems to prevent it.
What do y'all think?
Would you like an enemy mage be able to do that to your party? Trap them in a dome of Wall of Force then cast Sickening Radiance on them?
Second, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If the party can do it, the enemy can do it. Enemy spellcasters are often intelligent and experienced, and should be expected to be as tactical and creative as the player characters. PCs should not expect enemy casters to simply do the predictable thing every time.
The explanation is incorrect. If the spell encounters a barrier that provides total cover before reaching the target, the spell takes effect early.
If a spell caster casts fireball at a target 80 feet away but there is an invisible Wall of Force 10 in front of the caster, the Fireball detonates 10 feet in front of the caster.
Could a wizard cast wall of force between themselves and their foes, and the next round cast a ranged AOE spell (e.g., shatter, frostbite, toll the dead, sickening radiance, meteor swarm) on any foes still on the other side of the wall?
None of the spells given as examples have text that say the effects come from the caster to the targeted spot; they simply appear, thus not having to pierce the wall of force.
It could be argued that RAI wouldn't allow such casting through the wall but nothing about the actual wording seems to prevent it.
What do y'all think?
Would you like an enemy mage be able to do that to your party? Trap them in a dome of Wall of Force then cast Sickening Radiance on them?
Second, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If the party can do it, the enemy can do it. Enemy spellcasters are often intelligent and experienced, and should be expected to be as tactical and creative as the player characters. PCs should not expect enemy casters to simply do the predictable thing every time.
The explanation is incorrect. If the spell encounters a barrier that provides total cover before reaching the target, the spell takes effect early.
If a spell caster casts fireball at a target 80 feet away but there is an invisible Wall of Force 10 in front of the caster, the Fireball detonates 10 feet in front of the caster.
Yeah, that's totally right:
If the creator of an area of effect places it at an unseen point and an obstruction—such as a wall—is between the creator and that point, the point of origin comes into being on the near side of the obstruction.
Could a wizard cast wall of force between themselves and their foes, and the next round cast a ranged AOE spell (e.g., shatter, frostbite, toll the dead, sickening radiance, meteor swarm) on any foes still on the other side of the wall?
None of the spells given as examples have text that say the effects come from the caster to the targeted spot; they simply appear, thus not having to pierce the wall of force.
It could be argued that RAI wouldn't allow such casting through the wall but nothing about the actual wording seems to prevent it.
What do y'all think?
Would you like an enemy mage be able to do that to your party? Trap them in a dome of Wall of Force then cast Sickening Radiance on them?
Second, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If the party can do it, the enemy can do it. Enemy spellcasters are often intelligent and experienced, and should be expected to be as tactical and creative as the player characters. PCs should not expect enemy casters to simply do the predictable thing every time.
The explanation is incorrect. If the spell encounters a barrier that provides total cover before reaching the target, the spell takes effect early.
If a spell caster casts fireball at a target 80 feet away but there is an invisible Wall of Force 10 in front of the caster, the Fireball detonates 10 feet in front of the caster.
The above explanation about how spellcasting generally works was not incorrect. It just did not provide this detail about what happens when this is actually attempted in this specific scenario with an AoE spell since that's not what was originally asked. The question was about whether or not these spells with wording that does not include an effect that noticeably emanates from the spellcaster but instead seems to appear directly at the chosen location can affect the enemy on the other side of this cover when cast. The example list of spells that was originally given did not even necessarily include only Area of Effect spells (Frostbite and Toll the Dead are both direct targeting spells, not AoE spells). So, the question was "Could a wizard [do what he is trying to do]"? And the answer is still no, he cannot -- and the explanation given for how spellcasting works in general is still the reason why he cannot do it.
Now, as additional related information, it is good to know what happens when the spell in question IS an AoE spell, and the rule that you've provided is helpful for adjudicating that scenario if such an attempt is made anyway even though he cannot actually do what he is trying to do. But that doesn't make the explanation for why the wizard cannot do what he is trying to do incorrect -- it just provides an extra detail for that edge case.
The explanation is incorrect. If the spell encounters a barrier that provides total cover before reaching the target, the spell takes effect early.
If a spell caster casts fireball at a target 80 feet away but there is an invisible Wall of Force 10 in front of the caster, the Fireball detonates 10 feet in front of the caster.
The above explanation about how spellcasting generally works was not incorrect. It just did not provide this detail about what happens when this is actually attempted in this specific scenario with an AoE spell since that's not what was originally asked. The question was about whether or not these spells with wording that does not include an effect that noticeably emanates from the spellcaster but instead seems to appear directly at the chosen location can affect the enemy on the other side of this cover when cast. The example list of spells that was originally given did not even necessarily include only Area of Effect spells (Frostbite and Toll the Dead are both direct targeting spells, not AoE spells). So, the question was "Could a wizard [do what he is trying to do]"? And the answer is still no, he cannot -- and the explanation given for how spellcasting works in general is still the reason why he cannot do it.
Now, as additional related information, it is good to know what happens when the spell in question IS an AoE spell, and the rule that you've provided is helpful for adjudicating that scenario if such an attempt is made anyway even though he cannot actually do what he is trying to do. But that doesn't make the explanation for why the wizard cannot do what he is trying to do incorrect -- it just provides an extra detail for that edge case.
When you said that the effect "springs into existence AT the specified point in space." I thought you were saying that it bypasses intervening total cover. If that is not the case, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.
Would you like an enemy mage be able to do that to your party? Trap them in a dome of Wall of Force then cast Sickening Radiance on them?
Ah. I didn't realize that it was a difference in specific spells. I don't know if it was their reasoning, hut honestly, I prefer the more consistent AoE rules as opposed to each spell defining what a sphere is.
How to add Tooltips.
@SmiteMakesRight_3_5 totally. It's a good point too. Using that point of view, the rules feel more streamlined.
First, see my responses on page 1. I agree that, in my original scenario, it wouldn't be possible. (Also shout out to the post that gave further details on the mechanics of spellcasting in 5E 14/24),
Second, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If the party can do it, the enemy can do it. Enemy spellcasters are often intelligent and experienced, and should be expected to be as tactical and creative as the player characters. PCs should not expect enemy casters to simply do the predictable thing every time.
The explanation is incorrect. If the spell encounters a barrier that provides total cover before reaching the target, the spell takes effect early.
If a spell caster casts fireball at a target 80 feet away but there is an invisible Wall of Force 10 in front of the caster, the Fireball detonates 10 feet in front of the caster.
How to add Tooltips.
Yeah, that's totally right:
The above explanation about how spellcasting generally works was not incorrect. It just did not provide this detail about what happens when this is actually attempted in this specific scenario with an AoE spell since that's not what was originally asked. The question was about whether or not these spells with wording that does not include an effect that noticeably emanates from the spellcaster but instead seems to appear directly at the chosen location can affect the enemy on the other side of this cover when cast. The example list of spells that was originally given did not even necessarily include only Area of Effect spells (Frostbite and Toll the Dead are both direct targeting spells, not AoE spells). So, the question was "Could a wizard [do what he is trying to do]"? And the answer is still no, he cannot -- and the explanation given for how spellcasting works in general is still the reason why he cannot do it.
Now, as additional related information, it is good to know what happens when the spell in question IS an AoE spell, and the rule that you've provided is helpful for adjudicating that scenario if such an attempt is made anyway even though he cannot actually do what he is trying to do. But that doesn't make the explanation for why the wizard cannot do what he is trying to do incorrect -- it just provides an extra detail for that edge case.
When you said that the effect "springs into existence AT the specified point in space." I thought you were saying that it bypasses intervening total cover. If that is not the case, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.
How to add Tooltips.