Could a wizard cast wall of force between themselves and their foes, and the next round cast a ranged AOE spell (e.g., shatter, frostbite, toll the dead, sickening radiance, meteor swarm) on any foes still on the other side of the wall?
None of the spells given as examples have text that say the effects come from the caster to the targeted spot; they simply appear, thus not having to pierce the wall of force.
It could be argued that RAI wouldn't allow such casting through the wall but nothing about the actual wording seems to prevent it.
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover.
Had to dig around a little in SAC, but I found a line here that confirms that transparent planes of magical force qualify as total cover. Attempts to argue that transparent surfaces don't qualify for total cover generally rely on splitting hairs on the semantics of how the total cover section of the cover rules uses the term "concealed" rather than "covered" the way the previous two do, but when you look at the section as a whole that reading doesn't hold up as a good faith position.
Turn it around, should the foes be able to cast those spells at the party through the wall? Players always want to do to, but phrased as done to they get second thoughts quickly. If in doubt actually do it to them ( first) and see if they scream about it hen discuss it.
To target something, you must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind total cover.
Had to dig around a little in SAC, but I found a line here that confirms that transparent planes of magical force qualify as total cover. Attempts to argue that transparent surfaces don't qualify for total cover generally rely on splitting hairs on the semantics of how the total cover section of the cover rules uses the term "concealed" rather than "covered" the way the previous two do, but when you look at the section as a whole that reading doesn't hold up as a good faith position.
Excellent - this is the kind of ruling and mechanics I needed. Appreciated!
(And yes, I'd concur: the wall of force provides total cover.)
Turn it around, should the foes be able to cast those spells at the party through the wall? Players always want to do to, but phrased as done to they get second thoughts quickly. If in doubt actually do it to them ( first) and see if they scream about it hen discuss it.
Absent the ruling provided by Ace of Rogues, I'd be inclined to see it as fairly creative and tactical spellcasting.
But the rules behind Total Cover neatly put the kibosh on it.
A target with total cover can’t be targeted directly by an attack or a spell,although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect.
So let me give a situation in which I think the RAI (even taking into account the SAC) would allow a caster to use an AOE spell on the far side of a wall of force.
Assume a long (at least 60 feet) corridor that's 10 feet wide. A 10th level wizard is being pursued by two or more bandits, lizardfolk, whatever. Also assume the wizard has either won initiative or has a lead of more than ten feet.
The wizard casts wall of force between them and their pursuers. This effectively gives both the wizard and pursuers total cover - but it also completely blocks their pursuers.
On their initiative, the pursuers try to take down the wall but fail. How doesn't matter; just assume the wall remains in place and the pursuers don't flee/turn around and run.
On the wizard's next turn, I don't see anything to prevent them from casting ice storm at a point 20 feet away from the wall on its far side. It's not targeting any creature; therefore the pursuers do not enjoy the protection of total cover. The pursuers, caught in the area of effect, are subject to the spell's damage.
On the wizard's next turn, I don't see anything to prevent them from casting ice storm at a point 20 feet away from the wall on its far side. It's not targeting any creature; therefore the pursuers do not enjoy the protection of total cover. The pursuers, caught in the area of effect, are subject to the spell's damage.
Thoughts?
You still need a clear part to the target of the spell. So you can't cast anything through the wall but you can target a point in the air (if the spell allows for it and the placement of the wall affords you an angle for it) and then have the AOE spread out and hit the creatures on the other side of the Wall of Force.
You still need a clear part to the target of the spell. So you can't cast anything through the wall but you can target a point in the air (if the spell allows for it and the placement of the wall affords you an angle for it) and then have the AOE spread out and hit the creatures on the other side of the Wall of Force.
But my argument is that the wizard isn't casting through the wall, per RAW. Unlike a fireball or lightning bolt spell, ice storm doesn't originate with the caster and travel to the targeted point of explosion/effect. It simply happens where the wizard wants (within range). The wall doesn't blockice storm because there isn't anything to block.
The target for Fireball and Ice storm is the same: a point in space, and the same rule applies.
Targets
A typical spell requires the caster to pick one or more targets to be affected by the spell’s magic. A spell’s description says whether the spell targets creatures, objects, or something else.
A Clear Path to the Target. To target something with a spell, a caster must have a clear path to it, so it can’t be behind Total Cover.
I still think it could be argued that a spell like ice storm doesn't have a target the way fireball does...but I am compelled by my own preferences in applying interpreting the rules to agree with you. Appreciate the discussion and posts!
All that said, the viable and rules-compliant workaround is simply making the wall of force only 10 feet high and then targeting a point in the air 15 up and 5 feet back from the wall for the ice storm.
I still think it could be argued that a spell like ice storm doesn't have a target the way fireball does..
No it really can't. This is one of the things most common to be misinterpreted by people, a transparent obstacle still is total cover and total cover does block spells.
See my post above. I'm not the kind of DM/player who wants to wrangle over every phrase, punctuation mark, or slightly ambiguous phrase. I'm good with the consensus view above.
I still think it could be argued that a spell like ice storm doesn't have a target the way fireball does...but I am compelled by my own preferences in applying interpreting the rules to agree with you. Appreciate the discussion and posts!
All that said, the viable and rules-compliant workaround is simply making the wall of force only 10 feet high and then targeting a point in the air 15 up and 5 feet back from the wall for the ice storm.
Yes, using a wall of force that is not a dome would work. A hemisphere can work by popping out the back, casting, and popping back in (only practical if the enemy can't easily go around the wall). Additionally, 10 panels that are 10x10 feet is a lot to work with when trying to construct a panel fort with targeting gaps.
Preestablished spells will work for a lair setup (Glyphs of Warding plus Wall of Force safe room).
A final option with a dome is anything you can cast spells through (anything that changes the point of origin for the spell). Familiars can deliver touch spells, which would probably work once.
A target with total cover can’t be targeted directly by an attack or a spell,although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect.
The intention there is that spells with AoEs may be able to go around obstructions, not through them -- the classic fireball expanding around a corner, or catching someone behind a wall by casting the ice storm to a point in space above it
If your wall of force is completely blocking the corridor, that isn't an option
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You still need a clear part to the target of the spell. So you can't cast anything through the wall but you can target a point in the air (if the spell allows for it and the placement of the wall affords you an angle for it) and then have the AOE spread out and hit the creatures on the other side of the Wall of Force.
But my argument is that the wizard isn't casting through the wall, per RAW. Unlike a fireball or lightning bolt spell, ice storm doesn't originate with the caster and travel to the targeted point of explosion/effect. It simply happens where the wizard wants (within range). The wall doesn't blockice storm because there isn't anything to block.
Just remember that the spell description generally describes the spell effect that is created by the spell. The actual mechanics of how spellcasting works in general is described in the Spellcasting chapter of the rules (or the Spells chapter in 2024).
The basic spellcasting design is that when a spellcaster casts a spell, the spell itself is cast "from" the spellcaster, and "travels" in a straight line along a clear path "to" the origin point of the spell effect. The spell's effect erupts into existence AT that location, but the spell which caused that effect was cast from the spellcaster. The verb "target" in the Clear Path rule is used in a connotation which refers to the concept of spell targeting -- meaning, where you are aiming your spell when you cast it. You cannot aim your spell at a location if you do not have a clear path to that location.
Because of that, the difference in the descriptions between the 2014 Fireball spell and the 2014 Ice Storm spell is not mechanically significant for the purposes of this discussion.
Yes, the Fireball spell effect is described as: "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame".
. . . the Ice Storm spell effect is described as: "A hail of rock-hard ice pounds to the ground"
But, in both cases, the spell is cast from the spellcaster and then springs into existence AT the specified point in space. This is a bit misleading when it comes to the Fireball description -- the actual spell effect for the Fireball spell originates at the point of origin even though an observer from within that world might witness a bright streak flashing from the spellcaster to that point. That bright streak is just part of the spell effect, but it has no mechanical significance. In both cases, the ability to cast the spell in such a way that it originates at the desired location is blocked by the obstacle that provides the total cover.
A target with total cover can’t be targeted directly by an attack or a spell,although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect.
The intention there is that spells with AoEs may be able to go around obstructions, not through them -- the classic fireball expanding around a corner, or catching someone behind a wall by casting the ice storm to a point in space above it
If your wall of force is completely blocking the corridor, that isn't an option
I'm still curious why the 2024 Fireball doesn't spread around corners. Is it just for easier adjudication, or is there another reason? Does anyone know?
A target with total cover can’t be targeted directly by an attack or a spell,although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect.
The intention there is that spells with AoEs may be able to go around obstructions, not through them -- the classic fireball expanding around a corner, or catching someone behind a wall by casting the ice storm to a point in space above it
If your wall of force is completely blocking the corridor, that isn't an option
I'm still curious why the 2024 Fireball doesn't spread around corners. Is it just for easier adjudication, or is there another reason? Does anyone know?
2014 didn't either in the same way. The area of effect sections both say that the effect extends from the point of origin in straight lines.
Think of AoE spell effects as summoning a light bulb to which everything solid is opaque (oversimplification a bit). If it's in shadow, it's not affected.
2014 didn't either in the same way. The area of effect sections both say that the effect extends from the point of origin in straight lines.
Think of AoE spell effects as summoning a light bulb to which everything solid is opaque (oversimplification a bit). If it's in shadow, it's not affected.
The 2014 version had specific text in its spell effect that overrode the general rules about only extending in straight lines.
Flammable objects in the area that aren’t being worn or carried start burning.
That "spreads around corners" clause was present on a few spells in the 2014 rules set, AFAIK it isn't repeated in the 2024 rules. I'm guessing that it is just for ease and to have less unique effects that have little/none actual lore reason but that's just a guess.
A target with total cover can’t be targeted directly by an attack or a spell,although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect.
The intention there is that spells with AoEs may be able to go around obstructions, not through them -- the classic fireball expanding around a corner, or catching someone behind a wall by casting the ice storm to a point in space above it
If your wall of force is completely blocking the corridor, that isn't an option
I'm still curious why the 2024 Fireball doesn't spread around corners. Is it just for easier adjudication, or is there another reason? Does anyone know?
2014 didn't either in the same way. The area of effect sections both say that the effect extends from the point of origin in straight lines.
Think of AoE spell effects as summoning a light bulb to which everything solid is opaque (oversimplification a bit). If it's in shadow, it's not affected.
Yes, an AoE usually works that way, but in the 2024 version of the spells, the wording "spreads around corners" has been removed from some. I'm also guessing the reason is the one Thezzaruz mentioned.
Assume the 2014 rules for this question.
Could a wizard cast wall of force between themselves and their foes, and the next round cast a ranged AOE spell (e.g., shatter, frostbite, toll the dead, sickening radiance, meteor swarm) on any foes still on the other side of the wall?
None of the spells given as examples have text that say the effects come from the caster to the targeted spot; they simply appear, thus not having to pierce the wall of force.
It could be argued that RAI wouldn't allow such casting through the wall but nothing about the actual wording seems to prevent it.
What do y'all think?
Had to dig around a little in SAC, but I found a line here that confirms that transparent planes of magical force qualify as total cover. Attempts to argue that transparent surfaces don't qualify for total cover generally rely on splitting hairs on the semantics of how the total cover section of the cover rules uses the term "concealed" rather than "covered" the way the previous two do, but when you look at the section as a whole that reading doesn't hold up as a good faith position.
Turn it around, should the foes be able to cast those spells at the party through the wall? Players always want to do to, but phrased as done to they get second thoughts quickly. If in doubt actually do it to them ( first) and see if they scream about it hen discuss it.
Wisea$$ DM and Player since 1979.
Excellent - this is the kind of ruling and mechanics I needed. Appreciated!
(And yes, I'd concur: the wall of force provides total cover.)
Absent the ruling provided by Ace of Rogues, I'd be inclined to see it as fairly creative and tactical spellcasting.
But the rules behind Total Cover neatly put the kibosh on it.
I agree with the answer given by @The_Ace_of_Rogues. That line in the SAC is great.
Just adding a couple of conversations with the Dev that were linked in the thread Wall of Force and Flame Strike - Rules & Game Mechanics:
There's a really important phrase in that sentence about total cover (emphasis mine):
So let me give a situation in which I think the RAI (even taking into account the SAC) would allow a caster to use an AOE spell on the far side of a wall of force.
Assume a long (at least 60 feet) corridor that's 10 feet wide. A 10th level wizard is being pursued by two or more bandits, lizardfolk, whatever. Also assume the wizard has either won initiative or has a lead of more than ten feet.
The wizard casts wall of force between them and their pursuers. This effectively gives both the wizard and pursuers total cover - but it also completely blocks their pursuers.
On their initiative, the pursuers try to take down the wall but fail. How doesn't matter; just assume the wall remains in place and the pursuers don't flee/turn around and run.
On the wizard's next turn, I don't see anything to prevent them from casting ice storm at a point 20 feet away from the wall on its far side. It's not targeting any creature; therefore the pursuers do not enjoy the protection of total cover. The pursuers, caught in the area of effect, are subject to the spell's damage.
Thoughts?
You still need a clear part to the target of the spell. So you can't cast anything through the wall but you can target a point in the air (if the spell allows for it and the placement of the wall affords you an angle for it) and then have the AOE spread out and hit the creatures on the other side of the Wall of Force.
But my argument is that the wizard isn't casting through the wall, per RAW. Unlike a fireball or lightning bolt spell, ice storm doesn't originate with the caster and travel to the targeted point of explosion/effect. It simply happens where the wizard wants (within range). The wall doesn't blockice storm because there isn't anything to block.
The target for Fireball and Ice storm is the same: a point in space, and the same rule applies.
Hmmmm.
I still think it could be argued that a spell like ice storm doesn't have a target the way fireball does...but I am compelled by my own preferences in applying interpreting the rules to agree with you. Appreciate the discussion and posts!
All that said, the viable and rules-compliant workaround is simply making the wall of force only 10 feet high and then targeting a point in the air 15 up and 5 feet back from the wall for the ice storm.
No it really can't. This is one of the things most common to be misinterpreted by people, a transparent obstacle still is total cover and total cover does block spells.
See my post above. I'm not the kind of DM/player who wants to wrangle over every phrase, punctuation mark, or slightly ambiguous phrase. I'm good with the consensus view above.
Yes, using a wall of force that is not a dome would work. A hemisphere can work by popping out the back, casting, and popping back in (only practical if the enemy can't easily go around the wall). Additionally, 10 panels that are 10x10 feet is a lot to work with when trying to construct a panel fort with targeting gaps.
Preestablished spells will work for a lair setup (Glyphs of Warding plus Wall of Force safe room).
A final option with a dome is anything you can cast spells through (anything that changes the point of origin for the spell). Familiars can deliver touch spells, which would probably work once.
How to add Tooltips.
The intention there is that spells with AoEs may be able to go around obstructions, not through them -- the classic fireball expanding around a corner, or catching someone behind a wall by casting the ice storm to a point in space above it
If your wall of force is completely blocking the corridor, that isn't an option
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Just remember that the spell description generally describes the spell effect that is created by the spell. The actual mechanics of how spellcasting works in general is described in the Spellcasting chapter of the rules (or the Spells chapter in 2024).
The basic spellcasting design is that when a spellcaster casts a spell, the spell itself is cast "from" the spellcaster, and "travels" in a straight line along a clear path "to" the origin point of the spell effect. The spell's effect erupts into existence AT that location, but the spell which caused that effect was cast from the spellcaster. The verb "target" in the Clear Path rule is used in a connotation which refers to the concept of spell targeting -- meaning, where you are aiming your spell when you cast it. You cannot aim your spell at a location if you do not have a clear path to that location.
Because of that, the difference in the descriptions between the 2014 Fireball spell and the 2014 Ice Storm spell is not mechanically significant for the purposes of this discussion.
Yes, the Fireball spell effect is described as: "A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and then blossoms with a low roar into an explosion of flame".
. . . the Ice Storm spell effect is described as: "A hail of rock-hard ice pounds to the ground"
But, in both cases, the spell is cast from the spellcaster and then springs into existence AT the specified point in space. This is a bit misleading when it comes to the Fireball description -- the actual spell effect for the Fireball spell originates at the point of origin even though an observer from within that world might witness a bright streak flashing from the spellcaster to that point. That bright streak is just part of the spell effect, but it has no mechanical significance. In both cases, the ability to cast the spell in such a way that it originates at the desired location is blocked by the obstacle that provides the total cover.
I'm still curious why the 2024 Fireball doesn't spread around corners. Is it just for easier adjudication, or is there another reason? Does anyone know?
2014 didn't either in the same way. The area of effect sections both say that the effect extends from the point of origin in straight lines.
Think of AoE spell effects as summoning a light bulb to which everything solid is opaque (oversimplification a bit). If it's in shadow, it's not affected.
How to add Tooltips.
The 2014 version had specific text in its spell effect that overrode the general rules about only extending in straight lines.
2014 Fireball
2024 Fireball
That "spreads around corners" clause was present on a few spells in the 2014 rules set, AFAIK it isn't repeated in the 2024 rules. I'm guessing that it is just for ease and to have less unique effects that have little/none actual lore reason but that's just a guess.
Yes, an AoE usually works that way, but in the 2024 version of the spells, the wording "spreads around corners" has been removed from some. I'm also guessing the reason is the one Thezzaruz mentioned.
Other examples are:
EDIT: "spread" as a word still appears in Darkness, Daylight, and Storm of Vengeance.