They have a lot of overlap. Did you notice the hidden orc's toes under the bush, or that an unusual number of flies are buzzing around the smelly beast? Did you spot the crack in the wall where the secret door is, or is one of the rocks more polished because people have been putting their oily hands there with each use? Did you spot the tripwire, or recognize that the deadfall ceiling had a different texture from the rest of the ceiling. Did you notice that the false chest bottom was not closed perfectly, or that there was an inch of missing space in the chest's volume?
Perception is about gathering information to your brain. Investigation is about sorting the information your brain receives and recognizing patterns or discrepancies. They can overlap in outcomes sometimes, and there are some things that only one one is good for.
Are you trying to see if there are things hiding in the distant village? Perception. "You see a sword tip glinting around the corner of a building" Are you trying to see if the distant village is likely an ambush? "Carts have been suspiciously set close to each other to limit movement past the gate. All the windows are shuttered in spite of it being a hot day." Are you trying to determine if the distant village looks occupied or abandoned? Perception - "You see the faintest trace of smoke from a chimney, like a fire was not quite put out." Investigation - "There is a considerable amount of fresh looking animal dung in a pile near the pen."
Perception would be useful to notice the goblins hiding in the bushes. Investigation is what would allow you to find the hidden door they were guarding after the fight.
Perception could allow you to notice a patch of wall in a room that isn't dusty. An intelligence check would allow you to realize that patch of wall is actually a door without inspecting it.
Investigation would allow you to search a person's room for clues. Perception would reveal the axe that is ready to swing down onto your head as a trap.
Lets say an adventurer has an ability that allows them to think and perceive time faster (like the Flash when he's in flash-time), how would you put that into a feature for a homebrew creation?
(specifically in the form of a feature for a homebrew monk subclass)
Lets say an adventurer has an ability that allows them to think and perceive time faster (like the Flash when he's in flash-time), how would you put that into a feature for a homebrew creation?
(specifically in the form of a feature for a homebrew monk subclass)
My first step would be to ask this question in the Homebrew forum. :-)
If it's muddy, I think it can come down to this: general vs specific, and/or question vs. statement, where general/specific supersedes question/statement. Investigation involves intent or purpose, perception covers about anything else.
"Do I seeanything of interest in this room?" Question, general: perception check
"I'd like to lookalong the wall for anything of interest" Statement, specific: Investigation check
"I'm looking for traps in here." Statement, General: perception
"Can I look for traps in that doorway?" question, specific: Investigation
I think it's fair that the DM can open up the conversation with the player.
Player: "Do I see anything of interest in here?"
DM: Are you looking for something specific? (hint, hint)
If yes, Investigation. If no, perception. If the player is going off of a hunch or a clue gathered previously, it's up to the player to communicate that. DM discretion is advised.
After all the same explanations just in different words. This one makes the most sense and is usable. two thumbs up
Based on this reasoning, could a character with high investigation always be investigating their surroundings, negating the need for a passive perception?
Based on this reasoning, could a character with high investigation always be investigating their surroundings, negating the need for a passive perception?
The last line of that post would be key:
Think openly noticeable or if they have to actively search.
Who's always actively investigating? That would be most tiresome. A high investigation would entail the quality/success rate of said active investigation. Passive vs Active is the idea here.
Perception is what you sense when you're not trying to find something. I.E do you happen to hear the creak in the floor or did you smell the sulphur of the match or do you see that the closet door Is slightly ajar.
Investigation is when your actively looking for something. I.E. you're listening at the door so you're trying to figure out the best way to get your ear to the door to hear what's happening on the other side or did you remember that the thief had a pungent odor and that you're trying to figure out what might have caused that smell or are you actively looking for somewhere an adult orc male could hide.
Perception is what you sense when you're not trying to find something. I.E do you happen to hear the creak in the floor or did you smell the sulphur of the match or do you see that the closet door Is slightly ajar.
Investigation is when your actively looking for something. I.E. you're listening at the door so you're trying to figure out the best way to get your ear to the door to hear what's happening on the other side or did you remember that the thief had a pungent odor and that you're trying to figure out what might have caused that smell or are you actively looking for somewhere an adult orc male could hide.
That sounds more like the difference between active Perception and Passive Perception.
Perception is about one's senses, but does not interpret those sensory clues. Investigation is about interpreting meaning from clues, but does not help you perceive those clues in the first place.
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Passive Perception/Investigation/Insight is ALWAYS on. Straight from Mr. Crawfords mouth to your ears. Listen to this podcast, and all these questions shall be answered. It's a great episode, dealing with stealth, hiding, and Perception
Passive Perception/Investigation/Insight is ALWAYS on. Straight from Mr. Crawfords mouth to your ears. Listen to this podcast, and all these questions shall be answered. It's a great episode, dealing with stealth, hiding, and Perception
There is one exception, namely if you are sufficiently focused on something else, your passives may not be in play. If you are hard at work on a creative project, or listening to someone to whom you are completely enamoured. Or alternatively that might just alter the DC's but could alter the difficulty enough that it is the same as them not being active.
Wouldn't that be where we could use the rule about Advantage and Disadvantage manifesting as a + or - 5 on a passive score?
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Canto alla vita alla sua bellezza ad ogni sua ferita ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
There seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding about the meaning of "passive" in the context of skill checks.
Passive is NOT something that is always on or that happens when the character isn't doing anything.Passive has NOTHING to do with the actions of the character. Passive has only one meaning in the context of the D&D 5e rules ... the player does NOT roll dice. That's it. Unfortunately, a lot of people read passive and immediately assume it has something to do with the character.
PHB pg 175
PASSIVE CHECKS A passive check is a special kind of ability check that doesn't involve any die rolls. Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly, such as searching for secret doors over and over again, or can be used when the DM wants to secretly determine whether the characters succeed at something without rolling dice, such as noticing a hidden monster.
Passive checks can be used to find secret doors or other items but ONLY if the character is actually doing something that would allow them to find the secret door. If they are searching for example or paying attention to their surroundings (which almost everyone does when traveling or in a dungeon) then a passive check could be used to discover or observe whatever is hidden.
This is emphasized in the traveling rules PHB 182 and 183
NOTICING THREATS Use the passive Wisdom (Perception) scores of the characters to determine whether anyone in the group notices a hidden threat.
OTHER ACTIVITIES Characters who turn their attention to other tasks as the group travels are not focused on watching for danger. These characters don't contribute their passive Wisdom (Perception) scores to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats.
So ... if you aren't watching you don't get to use passive perception to discover threats.
This approach is used in the adventures built for 5e. From Lost Mines of Phandelver p7. (small spoiler)
"Snare. About 10 minutes after heading down the trail, a party on the path encounters a hidden snare. If the characters are searching for traps, the character in the lead spots the trap automatically if his or her passive Wisdom (Perception) score is 12 or higher. Otherwise, the character must succeed on a DC 12 Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the trap."
If the party is ACTIVELY searching for traps then their PASSIVE perception can be used to find the trap. If they aren't searching OR if their passive perception is too low they make an ACTIVE check by rolling the dice. The characters have to be taking an appropriate action in order for their passive score to be used.
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As for the difference between perception and investigation, these are also pretty well defined in the PHB.
PHB p178
Investigation. When you look around for clues and make deductions based on those clues, you make an Intelligence (Investigation) check.
Perception. Your Wisdom (Perception) check lets you spot, hear, or otherwise detect the presence of something. It measures your general awareness of your surroundings and the keenness of your senses.
Perception is the ability to SENSE your environment while Investigation is the ability to DEDUCE or figure out something based on what has been perceived.
For example, finding a secret door might be a perception check (which is the check outlined in the PHB) but figuring it out how to open it could be an Investigation check (or deducing the presence based on the draft in the room ... or some other observation). Either or both of these could use a PASSIVE check in which the player doesn't roll dice. "Such a check can represent the average result for a task done repeatedly" ... if the character has sufficient time to thoroughly search a room then first making a passive check to see if that succeeds make sense since a passive check represents the AVERAGE result.
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Finally, passive checks can be used for any check that the DM wishes and they make sense for any situation where
1) There is sufficient time for the character to try repeatedly
2) The action taken has no significant consequences.
For example, if a character is looking through books to do magical research to find magical information for a quest with a DC15 then a passive check against arcana might be in order before anyone rolls dice. This has several advantages. It stops everyone in the party from rolling and wasting time. It also means that the wizard with 16 int and proficiency in arcana is more likely to find the clue than the 8 int barbarian without proficiency and no interest in magic who happens to roll a 20. If no one has a high enough passive score then the task is up to completion by the luck of the dice. The same can apply to forcing a door open (strength check), picking a lock (thieves tools, dex check), history check or any other ability check performed when given enough time and for which failure doesn't have a consequence.
On the other hand, disarming a trap that could go off if failed would likely require a roll. Similarly, picking a lock where the lock could break might require a roll.
All of this is up to the DM, but passive checks are massively under utilized compared to the way the rules are written and the way the examples in both modules and the rule books seem to lay them out. (for example, the observant feat gives +5 to both passive perception and passive investigation ... but I have met very few DMs who use passive investigation since many seem to wonder how investigation can be passive :) ... when it isn't the investigation that is passive ... it is the player that is passive because he doesn't roll dice).
From a role playing perspective, using passive checks when appropriate gives a much smoother narration and plays to the strengths of the characters. If the DC is low enough then the ones who are proficient in the skill with good relevant attribute are the ones who are more likely to notice or make the connection. From a player perspective, the player would never know that there was a task requiring a check, they just hear the narrated result that their character discovered something or figured something out (assuming that they were taking an action that would allow an application of the skill check).
Wow, this is truly a brilliant explanation. Finally, the passive checks all make perfect sense.
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They have a lot of overlap. Did you notice the hidden orc's toes under the bush, or that an unusual number of flies are buzzing around the smelly beast? Did you spot the crack in the wall where the secret door is, or is one of the rocks more polished because people have been putting their oily hands there with each use? Did you spot the tripwire, or recognize that the deadfall ceiling had a different texture from the rest of the ceiling. Did you notice that the false chest bottom was not closed perfectly, or that there was an inch of missing space in the chest's volume?
Perception is about gathering information to your brain. Investigation is about sorting the information your brain receives and recognizing patterns or discrepancies. They can overlap in outcomes sometimes, and there are some things that only one one is good for.
Are you trying to see if there are things hiding in the distant village? Perception. "You see a sword tip glinting around the corner of a building"
Are you trying to see if the distant village is likely an ambush? "Carts have been suspiciously set close to each other to limit movement past the gate. All the windows are shuttered in spite of it being a hot day."
Are you trying to determine if the distant village looks occupied or abandoned?
Perception - "You see the faintest trace of smoke from a chimney, like a fire was not quite put out."
Investigation - "There is a considerable amount of fresh looking animal dung in a pile near the pen."
Perception would be useful to notice the goblins hiding in the bushes. Investigation is what would allow you to find the hidden door they were guarding after the fight.
Perception could allow you to notice a patch of wall in a room that isn't dusty. An intelligence check would allow you to realize that patch of wall is actually a door without inspecting it.
Investigation would allow you to search a person's room for clues. Perception would reveal the axe that is ready to swing down onto your head as a trap.
Does this make sense?
At the risk of muddling things more:
What situations (if any) do you think could call for an INT (Perception) check? A WIS (Investigation) check?
Lets say an adventurer has an ability that allows them to think and perceive time faster (like the Flash when he's in flash-time), how would you put that into a feature for a homebrew creation?
(specifically in the form of a feature for a homebrew monk subclass)
My first step would be to ask this question in the Homebrew forum. :-)
Yo, that's genius! XD
After all the same explanations just in different words. This one makes the most sense and is usable. two thumbs up
Based on this reasoning, could a character with high investigation always be investigating their surroundings, negating the need for a passive perception?
That's up to you and how the DM wants to play passive investigation. I, myself, do not run passive investigation.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The last line of that post would be key:
Who's always actively investigating? That would be most tiresome. A high investigation would entail the quality/success rate of said active investigation. Passive vs Active is the idea here.
I personally play it like this.
Perception is what you sense when you're not trying to find something. I.E do you happen to hear the creak in the floor or did you smell the sulphur of the match or do you see that the closet door Is slightly ajar.
Investigation is when your actively looking for something. I.E. you're listening at the door so you're trying to figure out the best way to get your ear to the door to hear what's happening on the other side or did you remember that the thief had a pungent odor and that you're trying to figure out what might have caused that smell or are you actively looking for somewhere an adult orc male could hide.
That sounds more like the difference between active Perception and Passive Perception.
Perception is about one's senses, but does not interpret those sensory clues. Investigation is about interpreting meaning from clues, but does not help you perceive those clues in the first place.
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Passive Perception/Investigation/Insight is ALWAYS on. Straight from Mr. Crawfords mouth to your ears. Listen to this podcast, and all these questions shall be answered. It's a great episode, dealing with stealth, hiding, and Perception
https://media.wizards.com/2017/podcasts/dnd/DnDPodcast_04_27_2017.mp3
If you want sugar coating, go buy a dessert....
Wouldn't that be where we could use the rule about Advantage and Disadvantage manifesting as a + or - 5 on a passive score?
Canto alla vita
alla sua bellezza
ad ogni sua ferita
ogni sua carezza!
I sing to life and to its tragic beauty
To pain and to strife, but all that dances through me
The rise and the fall, I've lived through it all!
Wow, this is truly a brilliant explanation. Finally, the passive checks all make perfect sense.