Ummm, huh? Nick doesn't do that, and the Nick attack is also explicitly part of the Attack action -- that's literally the point of it -- so it wouldn't need to do that
Not sure to understand your comment. The Attack action feature below can be used when making the Light Weapon attack with Nick Mastery but not without it as Bonus Action.
Equipping and Unequipping Weapons. You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack.
You claimed that was a feature of the Nick property itself. It's not. Nick makes no mention of equipping or unequipping weapons
It's the reason why Nick Mastery let you equip or unequip a Light weapon before or after making the attack
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Ummm, huh? Nick doesn't do that, and the Nick attack is also explicitly part of the Attack action -- that's literally the point of it -- so it wouldn't need to do that
That was his whole point. Nick says that it is made in the Attack Action and thus things that work with the Attack Action works with Nick. Cleave doesn't say it happens in the attack action and thus it isn't compatible with such things.
That was not what he said though. He said it was a property of the Nick mastery itself, not an incidental benefit of the shift from BA to Attack action
Considering I think he's completely wrong about how Cleave works, I had no reason to assume he understood how Nick works either
EDIT: actually now that I think about it, I disagree that Nick guarantees you an objection interaction anyway, since I'm in the apparently tiny minority that doesn't subscribe to the "one extra weapon interaction per attack within the Attack action" interpretation, but rather the "one extra weapon interaction per Attack action" interpretation
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The Nick Mastery itself doesn't say you can equip or unequip a Light weapon before or after making the attack, or that you make an attack roll with it, it still let you do it because of other rules implication, i'm sure you guys undertood what i was saying.
The Attack action feature enables you to equip or unequip a weapon when making the Light Weapon attack with Nick Mastery regardless if you interpret it as 1/attack or 1/action, it's additional interactions that would be affected if anything.
What was the designers intent for Cleave from a movement mechanics perspective? (Not a rules perspective)
Is it:
1) a separate attack directed at another adjacent creature?
Or
2) more like a follow through from an attack that may or may not happen to hit an adjacent creature because the weapon (greataxe) has a very large swing arc.
I would lean towards number 2 because a full attack should add your strength modifier to the damage and cleave does not. If the cleave attack roll is representing weather your follow through happens to hit a target or not, then it makes sense that it be considered part of the same attack that triggered it. In this scenario it would be part of the same attack action. Which qualifies for gwm bonus.
Either way people are welcome to interpret the rules as they see fit and play accordingly until we get an errata on the issue.
Cleave Mastery attack is not the only property for which you don’t add your ability modifier to that damage unless that modifier is negative, Light does as well despite being a seperate attack.
Cleave Mastery attack is not the only property for which you don’t add your ability modifier to that damage unless that modifier is negative, Light does as well despite being a seperate attack.
Light doesn't add your ability modifier to damage because, narratively, it's an attack using your non-dominant hand
Cleave is only available on two-handed weapons, so Light isn't a meaningful comparison when looking for the narrative intention behind the property
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Cleave is only available on two-handed weapons, so Light isn't a meaningful comparison when looking for the narrative intention behind the property
The narrative intention is pretty clearly big sweeping blows that hit multiple targets. The reason for not adding the ability score modifier is presumably just a concept of balance.
Cleave Mastery attack is not the only property for which you don’t add your ability modifier to that damage unless that modifier is negative, Light does as well despite being a seperate attack.
Light doesn't add your ability modifier to damage because, narratively, it's an attack using your non-dominant hand
Cleave is only available on two-handed weapons, so Light isn't a meaningful comparison when looking for the narrative intention behind the property
I disagree. Whether it is a sweeping blow that manages to hit or graze a second target or second, distinct attack where you are more bouncing the weapon onto the next target, the intention appears to be clear that you are making a rapid extra attack without the full leverage of your physique or athleticism behind it. This is very similar to extra, rapid strikes from the Light property or the Dual Wielder Feat. Either one can be flavored as flowing slashes or repeated chops/stabs.
Cleave is only available on two-handed weapons, so Light isn't a meaningful comparison when looking for the narrative intention behind the property
The narrative intention is pretty clearly big sweeping blows that hit multiple targets. The reason for not adding the ability score modifier is presumably just a concept of balance.
I agree with this narrative.
Interestingly, Baldur's Gate 3 has this description for the Cleave action:
Swing your weapon in a large arc to attack up to 3 enemies at once. They each take half the damage your weapon usually deals.
Cleave Mastery attack is not the only property for which you don’t add your ability modifier to that damage unless that modifier is negative, Light does as well despite being a seperate attack.
Light doesn't add your ability modifier to damage because, narratively, it's an attack using your non-dominant hand
Cleave is only available on two-handed weapons, so Light isn't a meaningful comparison when looking for the narrative intention behind the property
I disagree. Whether it is a sweeping blow that manages to hit or graze a second target or second, distinct attack where you are more bouncing the weapon onto the next target, the intention appears to be clear that you are making a rapid extra attack without the full leverage of your physique or athleticism behind it. This is very similar to extra, rapid strikes from the Light property or the Dual Wielder Feat. Either one can be flavored as flowing slashes or repeated chops/stabs.
If a distinct strike with a second small weapon seems to you to be in any way narratively similar to catching a second target on your follow-through with a big weapon, who am I to argue
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
If a distinct strike with a second small weapon seems to you to be in any way narratively similar to catching a second target on your follow-through with a big weapon, who am I to argue
Don't mix flavor and mechanics. :D Whether you want to describe cleave as hitting someone on the follow through, the back swing, or whatnot, mechanically it's the same. With a small weapon, you can flavor it as a series of jabs, as Zorro-esque fluid movements, or as catching a second target on the follow through or the back swing. mechanically it's the same.
All I am saying is that you don't have to limit your narrative so severely.
If a distinct strike with a second small weapon seems to you to be in any way narratively similar to catching a second target on your follow-through with a big weapon, who am I to argue
Don't mix flavor and mechanics.
We weren't. Very explicitly
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Just a quick update on my cleave experiences so far.
In 5 levels of play my chances to use it were almost zero. Even if creatures are side by side, one of them would frequently get killed or move before i could ever use cleave. It was quite frustrating. I almost gave up and was ready to move onto something else. Fortunately our elemental monk started moving creatures into the right positions to i could finally start using it. Now that i can use it regularly it is quite powerful and almost broken for paladins since they can use divine smite on it. However it seems heavily reliant on someone good battle field control and willingess to team up with you to make it work.
So far our campaign has been large open maps. I think terrain plays a huge factor if cleave is usefull or not. Cleave is likely better in tight dungeon crawls.
Cleave is a risky play style if you are not a tank.
World Tree Barbarians are great for cleave. Stand next to one, then you can yoink another enemy using Branches of the Tree and reduce its speed to zero. I have rarely not been able to use cleave.
World Tree Barbarians are great for cleave. Stand next to one, then you can yoink another enemy using Branches of the Tree and reduce its speed to zero. I have rarely not been able to use cleave.
World Tree Barbarians are great for cleave. Stand next to one, then you can yoink another enemy using Branches of the Tree and reduce its speed to zero. I have rarely not been able to use cleave.
That sounds like fun!
World Tree Barbarian has been the most fun I have had playing a character since playing a paladin in the old I6 Ravenloft module (it's been a loooong time).
Highly recommend!
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You claimed that was a feature of the Nick property itself. It's not. Nick makes no mention of equipping or unequipping weapons
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That was not what he said though. He said it was a property of the Nick mastery itself, not an incidental benefit of the shift from BA to Attack action
Considering I think he's completely wrong about how Cleave works, I had no reason to assume he understood how Nick works either
EDIT: actually now that I think about it, I disagree that Nick guarantees you an objection interaction anyway, since I'm in the apparently tiny minority that doesn't subscribe to the "one extra weapon interaction per attack within the Attack action" interpretation, but rather the "one extra weapon interaction per Attack action" interpretation
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The Nick Mastery itself doesn't say you can equip or unequip a Light weapon before or after making the attack, or that you make an attack roll with it, it still let you do it because of other rules implication, i'm sure you guys undertood what i was saying.
What was the designers intent for Cleave from a movement mechanics perspective? (Not a rules perspective)
Is it:
1) a separate attack directed at another adjacent creature?
Or
2) more like a follow through from an attack that may or may not happen to hit an adjacent creature because the weapon (greataxe) has a very large swing arc.
I would lean towards number 2 because a full attack should add your strength modifier to the damage and cleave does not. If the cleave attack roll is representing weather your follow through happens to hit a target or not, then it makes sense that it be considered part of the same attack that triggered it. In this scenario it would be part of the same attack action. Which qualifies for gwm bonus.
Either way people are welcome to interpret the rules as they see fit and play accordingly until we get an errata on the issue.
To me Cleave attack is 01), the attack is seperate against the second creature and follow the Making An Attack structure.
Cleave Mastery attack is not the only property for which you don’t add your ability modifier to that damage unless that modifier is negative, Light does as well despite being a seperate attack.
Light doesn't add your ability modifier to damage because, narratively, it's an attack using your non-dominant hand
Cleave is only available on two-handed weapons, so Light isn't a meaningful comparison when looking for the narrative intention behind the property
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The narrative intention is pretty clearly big sweeping blows that hit multiple targets. The reason for not adding the ability score modifier is presumably just a concept of balance.
I disagree. Whether it is a sweeping blow that manages to hit or graze a second target or second, distinct attack where you are more bouncing the weapon onto the next target, the intention appears to be clear that you are making a rapid extra attack without the full leverage of your physique or athleticism behind it. This is very similar to extra, rapid strikes from the Light property or the Dual Wielder Feat. Either one can be flavored as flowing slashes or repeated chops/stabs.
How to add Tooltips.
I agree with this narrative.
Interestingly, Baldur's Gate 3 has this description for the Cleave action:
If a distinct strike with a second small weapon seems to you to be in any way narratively similar to catching a second target on your follow-through with a big weapon, who am I to argue
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I only brought up Cleave and Light as their damage calculation is comparable. Narratively they're different from a movement mechanics perspective.
Narratively, Cleave attack can be the same swing or a different one, the feature only details mechanical implications as seperate attack.
Don't mix flavor and mechanics. :D Whether you want to describe cleave as hitting someone on the follow through, the back swing, or whatnot, mechanically it's the same. With a small weapon, you can flavor it as a series of jabs, as Zorro-esque fluid movements, or as catching a second target on the follow through or the back swing. mechanically it's the same.
All I am saying is that you don't have to limit your narrative so severely.
How to add Tooltips.
We weren't. Very explicitly
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Just a quick update on my cleave experiences so far.
In 5 levels of play my chances to use it were almost zero. Even if creatures are side by side, one of them would frequently get killed or move before i could ever use cleave. It was quite frustrating. I almost gave up and was ready to move onto something else. Fortunately our elemental monk started moving creatures into the right positions to i could finally start using it. Now that i can use it regularly it is quite powerful and almost broken for paladins since they can use divine smite on it. However it seems heavily reliant on someone good battle field control and willingess to team up with you to make it work.
So far our campaign has been large open maps. I think terrain plays a huge factor if cleave is usefull or not. Cleave is likely better in tight dungeon crawls.
Cleave is a risky play style if you are not a tank.
Take that for what it is worth.
World Tree Barbarians are great for cleave. Stand next to one, then you can yoink another enemy using Branches of the Tree and reduce its speed to zero. I have rarely not been able to use cleave.
That sounds like fun!
World Tree Barbarian has been the most fun I have had playing a character since playing a paladin in the old I6 Ravenloft module (it's been a loooong time).
Highly recommend!