Thank you very much for the reply. And thank you all of you for your patience and explanations. I don’t agree, but no need to be fussy. I am going to try and send this straight to WOTC for a ruling as it really is only one unique scenario. There is no impact to all the other rules in dnd if the free casting of false life through Fiendish Vigor is allowed to be cast at Warlock table level, and therefore scale over time, making this a useful invocation. Maybe we’ll get a straight answer. what I’m trying to avoid is what will happen if only the first level false life is used. I think the reason for the Invocation text change was made intentionally so false life could scale along with the warlock spell levels. Otherwise why have the text in the 2014 version limiting to limit the free casting to first level? Was it not because otherwise it would be cast at the higher level? the text was added to not roll for temp hp in the false life spell, just take the max….why? Because tables sat around rolling and rolling until the warlock at the table got the highest roll anyway. The text change in 2024 stops that from being necessary. In similar fashion, some spells last all day (like temp hp) and don’t go away on short rest but do go away on long rest. So parties wake up from 8 he long rest, then cast an all day spell, then take a short rest to get
what will happen then is like a battle master with Rally maneuver: roll superiority dice to give party members temp hp, then take a short rest to get superiority dice back. So 8r long rest becomes 9 hr rest instead. the warlock will wake up, cast false life using a spell slot at higher level, then take the short rest to get their spell slot back. I am saying this invocation text change keeps that from having to happen. Makes the game a little faster for the table. does that make sense?
The reason for that text being removed from the Invocation is more likely because it was redundant, and a major theme in the 2024 updates has been the removal of redundant language from all kinds of things.
The scenario in your last paragraph would only happen if the Warlock took False Life as a regular prepared spell rather than the invocation, which is unlikely since it's not on the normal Warlock spell list.
To be clear, I'm not saying anything about whether it's a good idea for a Warlock to be able to freely cast False Life at higher levels all the time. If you think that's a good house rule to use at your table, then by all means go ahead. But that's what it is: a house rule. It's very clearly not allowed under the official rules.
Under Pact Magic for warlocks, it says: If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you.
This has come up in other threads, but there is some dispute as to whether spells granted through Invocations count as prepared spells, and thus count as warlock spells. Prepared spells are specifically ones you can cast using spell slots
Prepared Spells of Level 1+. You prepare the list of level 1+ spells that are available for you to cast with this feature.
As you said, it's unclear whether Eldritch Invocation spells count as Warlock spells for you (that's how I'm ruling it, and in any case they definitely do if you take Pact of the Tome), but it seems like most people think you can't use your Pact Magic slots for them (and I agree!)
@wllmpndltn in the linked thread I posted about how DDB handles Eldritch Invocation spells, in case it's useful for you.
I think you basically proved my point. That rule from players handbook compliments the fact that Warlocks always cast at their assigned spell level, so they would cast the spell, as the invocation text says, according to the warlock casting level. if this rule “ONLY” applies when you cast a higher level, then the warlock follows that guideline. If, in fact, that rule does not apply if you don’t use a spell slot, then it would not apply to the invocation, which does not expend a spell slot.
I think we’re looking at this from two totally different angles. I get what you’re saying and in 5e that would make sense completely, but in 2024, there are a couple (not many) situations where a higher level casting kicks in. One is the warlock, another is Sorcerer’s new twinned spell metamagic, any others?
In all the videos put out during and just after the play test time over the past year and a half about the warlock, this was highlighted. If this comes down to “what your DM will allow”, then maybe the understanding that general rules vs specific rules kicks in. Whether or not a Warlock’s specific rule higher cast level by being a Pact Magic caster rather than Wizard, sorcerer, etc., trumps some other general rule will be up to that DM. But from years of playing it seems to be commonly accepted that when there’s a general rule it is followed, but a specific wording supersedes the general rule. That is all I’m saying. I agree wholeheartedly there are specific cases where the warlock level of higher than a spell on an item doesn’t get used. For example if a ring of spell storing had a first level spell in it, used by a higher level warlock, or a spell scroll with a first level spell written in it, probably even a new “enspelled item” with a certain level spell on it, when used by a warlock, would follow the specific text for that item, and spell would be cast at the level of that item. An invocation is not an item, and as the Warlock Pact Magic text says in 2024 a few posts above, “these spells count as warlock spells for you. Warlocks use the spell level from their table.” Before replying please do this: think this is not a question of whether a spell slot is expended, what what level the spell is cast. In this specific case, the Warlock’s special ability to cast using their level in the Warlock table applies.
Again, this is not breaking the game and there’s no reason to force a 2014 understanding on the 2024 buff. It’s a slight buff for warlocks that scales well. Can you see where I’m coming from?
This is such a unique case, that it doesn’t radically change the game in anyway. It only affects one scenario.
Good?
I agree with this point. By the time the spell's effect is capped out (at 9th level), The THP gained by the spell level 5 effect of False Life isn't a major disruption. You'd lose a round to cast it, and would likely prefer to avoid missing out on a round of potential damage or crowd control unless it were rather necessary. I think most folks would pop it on just before engaging, or as they're trying to escape a bad outcome.
Also... Pact of the Chain's later choice of "Gift of the Ever-Living Ones" is no longer available in the 2024 list. I feel like this updated choice of "Fiendish Vigor" is a way to replace that effect and make it available to all warlocks, regardless of Pact choices.
And if the execs choose to avoid weighing in on the subject, then I take that as a confirmation that they'd prefer to let each table make that decision for themselves.
I intend to play-test it as cast at the warlock's current "casting level" and see what kind of effect it has on game-play in real time, and I'd suggest others do the same and adjust accordingly to their experiences. :-)
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Hatred, violence, Fall to earth like so much snow. Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
I think you basically proved my point. That rule from players handbook compliments the fact that Warlocks always cast at their assigned spell level, so they would cast the spell, as the invocation text says, according to the warlock casting level. if this rule “ONLY” applies when you cast a higher level, then the warlock follows that guideline. If, in fact, that rule does not apply if you don’t use a spell slot, then it would not apply to the invocation, which does not expend a spell slot.
I think we’re looking at this from two totally different angles. I get what you’re saying and in 5e that would make sense completely, but in 2024, there are a couple (not many) situations where a higher level casting kicks in. One is the warlock, another is Sorcerer’s new twinned spell metamagic, any others?
In all the videos put out during and just after the play test time over the past year and a half about the warlock, this was highlighted. If this comes down to “what your DM will allow”, then maybe the understanding that general rules vs specific rules kicks in. Whether or not a Warlock’s specific rule higher cast level by being a Pact Magic caster rather than Wizard, sorcerer, etc., trumps some other general rule will be up to that DM. But from years of playing it seems to be commonly accepted that when there’s a general rule it is followed, but a specific wording supersedes the general rule. That is all I’m saying. I agree wholeheartedly there are specific cases where the warlock level of higher than a spell on an item doesn’t get used. For example if a ring of spell storing had a first level spell in it, used by a higher level warlock, or a spell scroll with a first level spell written in it, probably even a new “enspelled item” with a certain level spell on it, when used by a warlock, would follow the specific text for that item, and spell would be cast at the level of that item. An invocation is not an item, and as the Warlock Pact Magic text says in 2024 a few posts above, “these spells count as warlock spells for you. Warlocks use the spell level from their table.” Before replying please do this: think this is not a question of whether a spell slot is expended, what what level the spell is cast. In this specific case, the Warlock’s special ability to cast using their level in the Warlock table applies.
Again, this is not breaking the game and there’s no reason to force a 2014 understanding on the 2024 buff. It’s a slight buff for warlocks that scales well. Can you see where I’m coming from?
This is such a unique case, that it doesn’t radically change the game in anyway. It only affects one scenario.
Good?
I agree with this point. By the time the spell's effect is capped out (at 9th level), The THP gained by the spell level 5 effect of False Life isn't a major disruption. You'd lose a round to cast it, and would likely prefer to avoid missing out on a round of potential damage or crowd control unless it were rather necessary. I think most folks would pop it on just before engaging, or as they're trying to escape a bad outcome.
Also... Pact of the Chain's later choice of "Gift of the Ever-Living Ones" is no longer available in the 2024 list. I feel like this updated choice of "Fiendish Vigor" is a way to replace that effect and make it available to all warlocks, regardless of Pact choices.
And if the execs choose to avoid weighing in on the subject, then I take that as a confirmation that they'd prefer to let each table make that decision for themselves.
I intend to play-test it as cast at the warlock's current "casting level" and see what kind of effect it has on game-play in real time, and I'd suggest others do the same and adjust accordingly to their experiences. :-)
Just to be clear: You're arguing that each table should play it their own way. That's cool and all, but that's not what a rules discussion forum is for. It's for discussing the Rules As Written interpretation.
Which, due to the rules about casting without spell slots, objectively states you're casting that at base level no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's a Warlock spell for you, that's a different but unrelated discussion. It doesn't matter that your spell slots are all of a specific level. No slot, no upcast effect, period, unless the ability specifically grants the exception (such as Fireball and Lightning Bolt from the Staff of the Magi).
I agree with this point. By the time the spell's effect is capped out (at 9th level), The THP gained by the spell level 5 effect of False Life isn't a major disruption. You'd lose a round to cast it, and would likely prefer to avoid missing out on a round of potential damage or crowd control unless it were rather necessary. I think most folks would pop it on just before engaging, or as they're trying to escape a bad outcome.
Also... Pact of the Chain's later choice of "Gift of the Ever-Living Ones" is no longer available in the 2024 list. I feel like this updated choice of "Fiendish Vigor" is a way to replace that effect and make it available to all warlocks, regardless of Pact choices.
And if the execs choose to avoid weighing in on the subject, then I take that as a confirmation that they'd prefer to let each table make that decision for themselves.
I intend to play-test it as cast at the warlock's current "casting level" and see what kind of effect it has on game-play in real time, and I'd suggest others do the same and adjust accordingly to their experiences. :-)
Setting aside the rules interpretation, which I believe to be settled, allowing a warlock 32 temporary hit points (5th level, automatic max result) without spending a spell slot, and the ability to renew them every round at the cost of an action is a very powerful feature indeed. But since you said you are going to give it a test run, it should be interesting to see what kind of effect that has at your table.
I think you basically proved my point. That rule from players handbook compliments the fact that Warlocks always cast at their assigned spell level, so they would cast the spell, as the invocation text says, according to the warlock casting level. if this rule “ONLY” applies when you cast a higher level, then the warlock follows that guideline. If, in fact, that rule does not apply if you don’t use a spell slot, then it would not apply to the invocation, which does not expend a spell slot.
I think we’re looking at this from two totally different angles. I get what you’re saying and in 5e that would make sense completely, but in 2024, there are a couple (not many) situations where a higher level casting kicks in. One is the warlock, another is Sorcerer’s new twinned spell metamagic, any others?
In all the videos put out during and just after the play test time over the past year and a half about the warlock, this was highlighted. If this comes down to “what your DM will allow”, then maybe the understanding that general rules vs specific rules kicks in. Whether or not a Warlock’s specific rule higher cast level by being a Pact Magic caster rather than Wizard, sorcerer, etc., trumps some other general rule will be up to that DM. But from years of playing it seems to be commonly accepted that when there’s a general rule it is followed, but a specific wording supersedes the general rule. That is all I’m saying. I agree wholeheartedly there are specific cases where the warlock level of higher than a spell on an item doesn’t get used. For example if a ring of spell storing had a first level spell in it, used by a higher level warlock, or a spell scroll with a first level spell written in it, probably even a new “enspelled item” with a certain level spell on it, when used by a warlock, would follow the specific text for that item, and spell would be cast at the level of that item. An invocation is not an item, and as the Warlock Pact Magic text says in 2024 a few posts above, “these spells count as warlock spells for you. Warlocks use the spell level from their table.” Before replying please do this: think this is not a question of whether a spell slot is expended, what what level the spell is cast. In this specific case, the Warlock’s special ability to cast using their level in the Warlock table applies.
Again, this is not breaking the game and there’s no reason to force a 2014 understanding on the 2024 buff. It’s a slight buff for warlocks that scales well. Can you see where I’m coming from?
This is such a unique case, that it doesn’t radically change the game in anyway. It only affects one scenario.
Good?
I agree with this point. By the time the spell's effect is capped out (at 9th level), The THP gained by the spell level 5 effect of False Life isn't a major disruption. You'd lose a round to cast it, and would likely prefer to avoid missing out on a round of potential damage or crowd control unless it were rather necessary. I think most folks would pop it on just before engaging, or as they're trying to escape a bad outcome.
Also... Pact of the Chain's later choice of "Gift of the Ever-Living Ones" is no longer available in the 2024 list. I feel like this updated choice of "Fiendish Vigor" is a way to replace that effect and make it available to all warlocks, regardless of Pact choices.
And if the execs choose to avoid weighing in on the subject, then I take that as a confirmation that they'd prefer to let each table make that decision for themselves.
I intend to play-test it as cast at the warlock's current "casting level" and see what kind of effect it has on game-play in real time, and I'd suggest others do the same and adjust accordingly to their experiences. :-)
Just to be clear: You're arguing that each table should play it their own way. That's cool and all, but that's not what a rules discussion forum is for. It's for discussing the Rules As Written interpretation.
Which, due to the rules about casting without spell slots, objectively states you're casting that at base level no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's a Warlock spell for you, that's a different but unrelated discussion. It doesn't matter that your spell slots are all of a specific level. No slot, no upcast effect, period, unless the ability specifically grants the exception (such as Fireball and Lightning Bolt from the Staff of the Magi).
And as interpreted by some, a warlock's spells are all cast at a "base level" that increases by Warlock level.
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Hatred, violence, Fall to earth like so much snow. Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
I agree with this point. By the time the spell's effect is capped out (at 9th level), The THP gained by the spell level 5 effect of False Life isn't a major disruption. You'd lose a round to cast it, and would likely prefer to avoid missing out on a round of potential damage or crowd control unless it were rather necessary. I think most folks would pop it on just before engaging, or as they're trying to escape a bad outcome.
Also... Pact of the Chain's later choice of "Gift of the Ever-Living Ones" is no longer available in the 2024 list. I feel like this updated choice of "Fiendish Vigor" is a way to replace that effect and make it available to all warlocks, regardless of Pact choices.
And if the execs choose to avoid weighing in on the subject, then I take that as a confirmation that they'd prefer to let each table make that decision for themselves.
I intend to play-test it as cast at the warlock's current "casting level" and see what kind of effect it has on game-play in real time, and I'd suggest others do the same and adjust accordingly to their experiences. :-)
Setting aside the rules interpretation, which I believe to be settled, allowing a warlock 32 temporary hit points (5th level, automatic max result) without spending a spell slot, and the ability to renew them every round at the cost of an action is a very powerful feature indeed. But since you said you are going to give it a test run, it should be interesting to see what kind of effect that has at your table.
Of course, sitting there and repeatedly casting False Life on yourself every round isn't something most players would do. And by level 10, enemy NPCs & monsters have a wide range of options to lock that down, anyway... or overpower it with dpr. But yeah... we'll see. 😊
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Hatred, violence, Fall to earth like so much snow. Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
And as interpreted by some, a warlock's spells are all cast at a "base level" that increases by Warlock level.
They may interpret it that way, but they would be wrong. After all, that isn't what the rules actually say.
Spell Slots. The Warlock Features table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your Warlock spells of levels 1–5. The table also shows the level of those slots, all of which are the same level. You regain all expended Pact Magic spell slots when you finish a Short or Long Rest.
For example, when you’re a level 5 Warlock, you have two level 3 spell slots. To cast the level 1 spell Witch Bolt, you must spend one of those slots, and you cast it as a level 3 spell.
As I already mentioned (I think in this thread), the rule isn't that you cast your spells all at the same level. The rule is that your slots are all of the same level. That means only spells you use a slot for are affected by the fact that warlocks only have one level of slot.
Precisely. The ONLY way to interpret False Life as being cast at the highest level slots you have as a Warlock is by finding a line that shows that ALL Warlock spells you cast are cast at the highest possible level, rather than following normal spellcasting rules.
And as interpreted by some, a warlock's spells are all cast at a "base level" that increases by Warlock level.
They may interpret it that way, but they would be wrong. After all, that isn't what the rules actually say.
Spell Slots. The Warlock Features table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your Warlock spells of levels 1–5. The table also shows the level of those slots, all of which are the same level. You regain all expended Pact Magic spell slots when you finish a Short or Long Rest.
For example, when you’re a level 5 Warlock, you have two level 3 spell slots. To cast the level 1 spell Witch Bolt, you must spend one of those slots, and you cast it as a level 3 spell.
As I already mentioned (I think in this thread), the rule isn't that you cast your spells all at the same level. The rule is that your slots are all of the same level. That means only spells you use a slot for are affected by the fact that warlocks only have one level of slot.
"If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
The paragraph you posted is describing the basic 'spell slot' mechanics specific to warlocks, but does not address bonus spells at all.
The above paragraph Does address bonus spells directly and strongly implies that All warlock spells function the same way... which could easily be interpreted to include 'spell slot level'.
The ambiguity comes from a single word: "counts", as opposed to "functions".
In the end, we can all try to say, "this is the correct view", but that simply isn't the case for either argument. It comes down to the two ultimately overriding factors:
Rules agreed to at Your table.
Is everyone having fun?
I will say that if I were playing in your game and you said "the cap on that is 12 hp," I'd have absolutely zero complaints and would gladly sit at the table, because your stance on it is reasonable, and I like to try to be a good guest. 😊
But it isn't actually the text. Again the point is that the text only addresses slots. Spells themselves are not affected because there is no text affecting them.
But it isn't actually the text. Again the point is that the text only addresses slots. Spells themselves are not affected because there is no text affecting them.
"If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
Literally addresses bonus spells and spells gained by other class features...
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Hatred, violence, Fall to earth like so much snow. Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
Follow up question, you don't think a warlock 9/ sorcerer 2 casts armor of agathys at 5th level when they choose to use one of their sorcerer spell slots to cast it, do you? Even though it must still be a warlock spell and they are free to cast spells with slots they've gained through the spellcasting feature per the multi classing rules.
But it isn't actually the text. Again the point is that the text only addresses slots. Spells themselves are not affected because there is no text affecting them.
"If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
Literally addresses bonus spells and spells gained by other class features...
Features that make a spell one you have "always prepared" say so. The 2024 Fiendish Vigor Invocation does not make False Life one of your Prepared Spells. It just lets you cast the spell. None of the 2024 invocations give you spells that you always have prepared.
Correction: The 2024 Pact of the Tome Invocation does state that "While the book is on your person, you have the chosen spells prepared, and they function as Warlock spells for you."
But it isn't actually the text. Again the point is that the text only addresses slots. Spells themselves are not affected because there is no text affecting them.
"If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
Literally addresses bonus spells and spells gained by other class features...
Features that make a spell one you have "always prepared" say so. The 2024 Fiendish Vigor Invocation does not make False Life one of your Prepared Spells. It just lets you cast the spell. None of the 2024 invocations give you spells that you always have prepared.
Valid point!
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Hatred, violence, Fall to earth like so much snow. Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
Follow up question, you don't think a warlock 9/ sorcerer 2 casts armor of agathys at 5th level when they choose to use one of their sorcerer spell slots to cast it, do you? Even though it must still be a warlock spell and they are free to cast spells with slots they've gained through the spellcasting feature per the multi classing rules.
Definitely not. That spell would be cast in a manner consistent with their level as a Sorcerer.
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Hatred, violence, Fall to earth like so much snow. Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
While people are correct about what the rule is, it does not upcast I do kind of wonder if that is what the rule should be. I think a lot of these invocations needed some scaling baked into them. Maybe not=to your pact level for fiendish vigor, but something. It is a pretty low tier invocation even at level 2, not terrible 12 hit points is solid at level 2, but just not necessarily as good as the other level 2 options. Some scaling might make it worth while. They did some work on it by letting it auto get max hit points, which is a sort of quality of life boost as you aren't casting this in a fight, you'd just spam cast it until you got the cap anyways, but no real balance work was done.
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The reason for that text being removed from the Invocation is more likely because it was redundant, and a major theme in the 2024 updates has been the removal of redundant language from all kinds of things.
The scenario in your last paragraph would only happen if the Warlock took False Life as a regular prepared spell rather than the invocation, which is unlikely since it's not on the normal Warlock spell list.
To be clear, I'm not saying anything about whether it's a good idea for a Warlock to be able to freely cast False Life at higher levels all the time. If you think that's a good house rule to use at your table, then by all means go ahead. But that's what it is: a house rule. It's very clearly not allowed under the official rules.
pronouns: he/she/they
Correct.
pronouns: he/she/they
Yeah, there's for example this very long discussion here: What exactly is considered a Warlock Spell, especially when multiclassing
As you said, it's unclear whether Eldritch Invocation spells count as Warlock spells for you (that's how I'm ruling it, and in any case they definitely do if you take Pact of the Tome), but it seems like most people think you can't use your Pact Magic slots for them (and I agree!)
@wllmpndltn in the linked thread I posted about how DDB handles Eldritch Invocation spells, in case it's useful for you.
I agree with this point. By the time the spell's effect is capped out (at 9th level), The THP gained by the spell level 5 effect of False Life isn't a major disruption. You'd lose a round to cast it, and would likely prefer to avoid missing out on a round of potential damage or crowd control unless it were rather necessary. I think most folks would pop it on just before engaging, or as they're trying to escape a bad outcome.
Also... Pact of the Chain's later choice of "Gift of the Ever-Living Ones" is no longer available in the 2024 list. I feel like this updated choice of "Fiendish Vigor" is a way to replace that effect and make it available to all warlocks, regardless of Pact choices.
And if the execs choose to avoid weighing in on the subject, then I take that as a confirmation that they'd prefer to let each table make that decision for themselves.
I intend to play-test it as cast at the warlock's current "casting level" and see what kind of effect it has on game-play in real time, and I'd suggest others do the same and adjust accordingly to their experiences. :-)
Hatred, violence,
Fall to earth like so much snow.
Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
Just to be clear: You're arguing that each table should play it their own way. That's cool and all, but that's not what a rules discussion forum is for. It's for discussing the Rules As Written interpretation.
Which, due to the rules about casting without spell slots, objectively states you're casting that at base level no matter what. It doesn't matter if it's a Warlock spell for you, that's a different but unrelated discussion. It doesn't matter that your spell slots are all of a specific level. No slot, no upcast effect, period, unless the ability specifically grants the exception (such as Fireball and Lightning Bolt from the Staff of the Magi).
Setting aside the rules interpretation, which I believe to be settled, allowing a warlock 32 temporary hit points (5th level, automatic max result) without spending a spell slot, and the ability to renew them every round at the cost of an action is a very powerful feature indeed. But since you said you are going to give it a test run, it should be interesting to see what kind of effect that has at your table.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
And as interpreted by some, a warlock's spells are all cast at a "base level" that increases by Warlock level.
Hatred, violence,
Fall to earth like so much snow.
Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
Of course, sitting there and repeatedly casting False Life on yourself every round isn't something most players would do. And by level 10, enemy NPCs & monsters have a wide range of options to lock that down, anyway... or overpower it with dpr. But yeah... we'll see. 😊
Hatred, violence,
Fall to earth like so much snow.
Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
They may interpret it that way, but they would be wrong. After all, that isn't what the rules actually say.
As I already mentioned (I think in this thread), the rule isn't that you cast your spells all at the same level. The rule is that your slots are all of the same level. That means only spells you use a slot for are affected by the fact that warlocks only have one level of slot.
Precisely. The ONLY way to interpret False Life as being cast at the highest level slots you have as a Warlock is by finding a line that shows that ALL Warlock spells you cast are cast at the highest possible level, rather than following normal spellcasting rules.
"If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
The paragraph you posted is describing the basic 'spell slot' mechanics specific to warlocks, but does not address bonus spells at all.
The above paragraph Does address bonus spells directly and strongly implies that All warlock spells function the same way... which could easily be interpreted to include 'spell slot level'.
The ambiguity comes from a single word: "counts", as opposed to "functions".
In the end, we can all try to say, "this is the correct view", but that simply isn't the case for either argument. It comes down to the two ultimately overriding factors:
Rules agreed to at Your table.
Is everyone having fun?
I will say that if I were playing in your game and you said "the cap on that is 12 hp," I'd have absolutely zero complaints and would gladly sit at the table, because your stance on it is reasonable, and I like to try to be a good guest. 😊
Hatred, violence,
Fall to earth like so much snow.
Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
If you read it that way, then run it that way.
But it isn't actually the text. Again the point is that the text only addresses slots. Spells themselves are not affected because there is no text affecting them.
"If another Warlock feature gives you spells that you always have prepared, those spells don’t count against the number of spells you can prepare with this feature, but those spells otherwise count as Warlock spells for you."
Literally addresses bonus spells and spells gained by other class features...
Hatred, violence,
Fall to earth like so much snow.
Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
Yeah, but nothing there says anything about the level they're cast at, does it?
You are making literal logical fallacies. It's a literal non sequitur: the conclusion does not follow. The logic is
Follow up question, you don't think a warlock 9/ sorcerer 2 casts armor of agathys at 5th level when they choose to use one of their sorcerer spell slots to cast it, do you? Even though it must still be a warlock spell and they are free to cast spells with slots they've gained through the spellcasting feature per the multi classing rules.
Features that make a spell one you have "always prepared" say so. The 2024 Fiendish Vigor Invocation does not make False Life one of your Prepared Spells. It just lets you cast the spell. None of the 2024 invocations give you spells that you always have prepared.
Correction: The 2024 Pact of the Tome Invocation does state that "While the book is on your person, you have the chosen spells prepared, and they function as Warlock spells for you."
🎵I'm on top of the world, looking down on creation, wreaking death and devastation with my mind.
As the power that I've found erupts freely from the ground, I will cackle from the top of the world.🎵
Charisma Saving Throw: DC 18, Failure: 20d6 Psychic Damage, Success: Half damage
I've already posted the link before, but the topic about whether an Eldritch Invocation spell is a prepared spell or a Warlock spell has already been discussed extensively here: What exactly is considered a Warlock Spell, especially when multiclassing
Valid point!
Hatred, violence,
Fall to earth like so much snow.
Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
Definitely not. That spell would be cast in a manner consistent with their level as a Sorcerer.
Hatred, violence,
Fall to earth like so much snow.
Who will be the sun?
I'm an OG player. I remember when "Basic" came out in boxed sets.
While people are correct about what the rule is, it does not upcast I do kind of wonder if that is what the rule should be. I think a lot of these invocations needed some scaling baked into them. Maybe not=to your pact level for fiendish vigor, but something. It is a pretty low tier invocation even at level 2, not terrible 12 hit points is solid at level 2, but just not necessarily as good as the other level 2 options. Some scaling might make it worth while. They did some work on it by letting it auto get max hit points, which is a sort of quality of life boost as you aren't casting this in a fight, you'd just spam cast it until you got the cap anyways, but no real balance work was done.