Did we ever figure out the designers' intent behind the 2024 hiding mechanics?
I'll start by saying that when it comes to adjudicating the outcome of my players' stealthy actions, I have some preferences and practices I generally rely on to make things fun and fair. I'm comfortable with the way I'm doing it; that is to say, I'm not looking for guidance on running stealth and I'm not planning on making changes just because the 2024 rules are worded a bit differently.
I am curious to understand them, though.
I recall thinking that they were a bit of a mess on my first read-through of the new Player's Handbook. Hiding now invokes the Invisible condition. The condition itself doesn't specify how it ends, but the hide action states that you lose the condition in various ways, including "if an enemy finds you". That's a little vague, but not problematic. The problem comes from the removal of the condition entirely. If you are "found" by one guard, but not another, you still lose the invisible condition. If you make a sound louder than a whisper, but you aren't near any enemies, do you lose the condition? Do you then need to make another check to hide? I know what I would do, but I'm unclear what the designers wanted us to think.
Invisible in itself is a strange condition, being that it grants you three effects, but none of them affect your visibility. (In fact, nothing at all about the 2024 spell "Invisibility" actually makes you unable to be seen, but that's off topic.)
Do you have to have the Invisible condition to be considered hidden? If a creature with Truesight looks in your direction, as written, they can see you while hidden. If they see you, you lose the Invisible condition. Can all creatures in the area see you now? Currently it seems that you cannot be hidden from one creature and not another.
The static DC is also odd. It isn't stated as a suggestion or a starting DC, it is offered as a rule. 15 is a high bar for low level play, and trivial for mid to high level play - so much so that many rogues need not roll to hide at all after level 10. It also means that hiding from a sleeping, ederly shopkeeper is just as difficult as hiding from the city's chief inspector.
Hiding is the only described use of the stealth skill in the new rules. The 2014 Players Handbook gave a much more comprehensive breakdown of skills and their potential uses. For a stealthy activity that doesn't actually involve hiding, the 2024 rules would have you make a dexterity check, not a stealth check.
Has there been any errata or guidance on what the intended interpretation of these rules are?
Do you have to have the Invisible condition to be considered hidden? If a creature with Truesight looks in your direction, as written, they can see you while hidden. If they see you, you lose the Invisible condition. Can all creatures in the area see you now? Currently it seems that you cannot be hidden from one creature and not another.
Hiding is now the Invisible condition, with more riders (mostly additional ways it can end). Truesight won't make much of a difference unless you break cover, because Truesight does not see through obstacles. (see more about breaking cover below.)
However, once one creature has found you, you are no longer hidden (no longer get the benefits of the invisible condition, that is, but you still might be behind cover), because it's presumed they tell their allies where you are. (This was basically true in 2014 as well.)
The static DC is also odd. It isn't stated as a suggestion or a starting DC, it is offered as a rule. 15 is a high bar for low level play, and trivial for mid to high level play - so much so that many rogues need not roll to hide at all after level 10. It also means that hiding from a sleeping, ederly shopkeeper is just as difficult as hiding from the city's chief inspector.
The static DC, arguably, represents the actual new thing about hiding: you can break cover and still have the invisible condition. As long as no-one finds you (search action with your previous stealth roll as the DC), you can sneak around and avoid being percieved. If you read through everything, you'll also notice that their passive perception (when the DM chooses to invoke it, at least) can also find you without the search action.
So, someone with a high Perception will be harder to hide from (higher passive) and be better at finding you when they search.
Think of the static DC as the minimum difficulty of hiding well enough to escape notice while sneaking around (or popping up for a ranged attack) once you break cover.
Also, the DM is explicitly told to make judgement calls about the situation: say, if you hide behind a stone that's alone in a vast empty field, you may not be able to hide at all (but still use it as cover). And if you try to sneak past guards in the open, and the guards aren't distracted by anything, they may just automatically find you. Someone with Truesight might get advantage to search for you (or not, if they are busy fighting things; Truesight isn't radar or a proximity alarm). Or maybe folks get advantage on the search action, or you get disadvantage to hide, or... The base Hiding rules are clearly tuned for combat hiding.
Hiding is the only described use of the stealth skill in the new rules. The 2014 Players Handbook gave a much more comprehensive breakdown of skills and their potential uses. For a stealthy activity that doesn't actually involve hiding, the 2024 rules would have you make a dexterity check, not a stealth check.
Stealth is also listed for "escape notice by moving quietly" which also interacts with the "travel pace" rules.
The hide action is badly written and confusing. Just take the first sentences of the description as an example:
"With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you."
A character needs to be heavily obscured, or behind three-quarters or total cover AND you must be out of any enemy's line of sight.
Three quarters cover means that an obstruction blocks view of part of a creature behind it but not all of it since they can still be targeted by an attack. This means that a creature behind three quarters cover can still be seen by an enemy and thus a creature behind three quarters cover can't hide since they are not out of an enemy's line of sight.
In addition, the bit about "if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you" is also self contradictory. ANY creature you can see CAN also see you by definition unless it is blind. Whether the creature does see you or is aware of you is another question but the rules only mention "CAN". If you can see something then it can always see you unless it can't see or you are behind something like one way glass ... or an illusion. However, does this mean that you can automatically tell if a creature can see through your illusion by attempting to hide since in that case you can automatically "discern whether it can see you".
Note that "line of sight" is not defined in the rules. Is Line of Sight the direction a creature is currently looking? OR is Line of Sight any direction that a creature could look from their current position, assuming that the creature is usually looking around and not staring fixedly at one point? This would certainly affect how hiding would work behind anything that provides less than a total obstruction.
In addition, RAW, a character can always hide behind a single tree or boulder in the middle of an empty field as long as the boulder is providing total cover. This was true in the 2014 rules as well. Circumstantially, an enemy might strongly believe that the creature hiding is still behind the rock - but unless they can see the creature or the creature fails its hide check, they are no longer sure that is the case. (They could have teleported away for example).
Another issue to mention is how the invisible condition granted due to hiding is lost ...
"The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
What exactly does an "Enemy finds you" mean? Does this imply the result of a search action only? How about being able to see the "hidden" creature because they are standing in front of you and you are looking directly at them? Depending on how a DM thinks this should be interpreted, a hidden creature can either walk through a crowd without being noticed unless the creatures in the crowd explicitly search for them ... even if they can be clearly seen ... OR the hidden creature immediately loses the invisible condition as soon as they are "found" by being seen - i.e. in line of sight and not behind total cover or heavily obscured.
Fundamentally, I personally have no idea how the designers intended the hide action and the invisible condition to interact (the 2014 rules were poor but the 2024 ones actually seem worse to me) .. the terms used aren't sufficiently well defined nor described to allow the rules to be used as anything more than a guideline or suggestion. All the details are left up the DMs judgement which means that the feature may play out very differently at different tables.
TL;DR ... the 2024 rules on hiding are just badly written. In my opinion, they are so badly written that it is hard to believe that whoever wrote that section of the rules has ever tried to play or DM using that section of the rules.
However, once one creature has found you, you are no longer hidden (no longer get the benefits of the invisible condition, that is, but you still might be behind cover), because it's presumed they tell their allies where you are. (This was basically true in 2014 as well.)
This was true in combat in 2014 because of the statement regarding awareness, but that text is absent from the 2024 rules. It is less true in a situation where all parties are not immediately aware of one another and would need to actively alert an ally to the hider's current position.
you can break cover and still have the invisible condition. As long as no-one finds you (search action with your previous stealth roll as the DC), you can sneak around and avoid being percieved.
This is murky. While I agree that this is a good interpretation of the rule, the text does not specify that the search action is how an enemy must "find" you. The line-of-sight statement only applies to the condition required to successfully hide. If you are hidden (invisible) and subsequently enter an enemy's line of sight, do they "find" you, or do they need to take the search action?
This is made even more confusing by having the same condition used for both magical and mundane invisibility. The spell Invisibility applies the Invisible condition. That's it. The Invisible condition does not state in its text that you are unable to be seen, but it is widely accepted that the function of that spell is to render you magically transparent or otherwise unobservable. Because the spell text uses nothing but the Invisible condition to accomplish this, and because the same condition is applied to a creature that successfully hides without a clarification regarding visibility, that creature must likewise be unable to be seen.
If the above is regarded as true, a creature can stand in front of an enemy after making a successful hide check and not be seen until the Invisible condition is removed. The condition text does not provide end triggers, so those specified in the hide action are the only ones that break the hider's invisibility. I think we can all agree that standing in the middle of a well-lit room after hiding should render you visible, but nothing in the text supports this.
Stealth is also listed for "escape notice by moving quietly" which also interacts with the "travel pace" rules.
"Dexterity (Stealth) allows you to escape notice by moving quietly and hiding behind things."
I assumed the choice of conjunction was intentional, but I could be reading it too closely.
However, once one creature has found you, you are no longer hidden (no longer get the benefits of the invisible condition, that is, but you still might be behind cover), because it's presumed they tell their allies where you are. (This was basically true in 2014 as well.)
This was true in combat in 2014 because of the statement regarding awareness, but that text is absent from the 2024 rules. It is less true in a situation where all parties are not immediately aware of one another and would need to actively alert an ally to the hider's current position.
The DM can try to track enemy awareness character-by-character; the rule doesn't say they can't. It's a pain, though, and trivial to just assume the enemies communicate as freely as PCs do. It would take a special new rule to say that "actively alert an ally" requires anything from the action economy. (But, suppose that the one that found you is under a Silence effect?) Anyway, they've never tried to sus out those kinds of details before, and I wouldn't have expected them to start with the 2024 rules.
you can break cover and still have the invisible condition. As long as no-one finds you (search action with your previous stealth roll as the DC), you can sneak around and avoid being percieved.
This is murky. While I agree that this is a good interpretation of the rule, the text does not specify that the search action is how an enemy must "find" you. The line-of-sight statement only applies to the condition required to successfully hide. If you are hidden (invisible) and subsequently enter an enemy's line of sight, do they "find" you, or do they need to take the search action?
The Hide action says it ends when "an enemy finds you" (and for that matter the Invisible condition says you are "concealed") and the Search action says perception is used to discern a "concealed creature or object." That's as clear as they are going to make it, without an entirely new section just for drawing all the rules together (which they clearly are refusing to put in the book, probably for editorial page-count reasons).
This is made even more confusing by having the same condition used for both magical and mundane invisibility. The spell Invisibility applies the Invisible condition. That's it. The Invisible condition does not state in its text that you are unable to be seen, but it is widely accepted that the function of that spell is to render you magically transparent or otherwise unobservable. Because the spell text uses nothing but the Invisible condition to accomplish this, and because the same condition is applied to a creature that successfully hides without a clarification regarding visibility, that creature must likewise be unable to be seen.
The condition says you are concealed, but doesn't say how. The Hide action gives it to you via hiding, and also gives new/extra rules for how it can end, including both someone finding you or you making a sound louder than a whisper. The spell gives you the condition via magic; it does not say you are transparent. The spell also does not end the condition if someone just "finds" you or you make too much noise. Hiding can be ended by someone finding you or hearing you; the spell cannot.
(Parts of just-the-condition, like from the spell, may be irrelevant if they can see you via Truesight or whatever, but Truesight wouldn't just end the condition.)
If the above is regarded as true, a creature can stand in front of an enemy after making a successful hide check and not be seen until the Invisible condition is removed. The condition text does not provide end triggers, so those specified in the hide action are the only ones that break the hider's invisibility. I think we can all agree that standing in the middle of a well-lit room after hiding should render you visible, but nothing in the text supports this.
If you were invisible due to hiding, you are rendered visible if someone finds or hears you. In strict situations (like combat, when action economy is tracked and all that), this happens from the Search action or Passive Perception. Outside of combat, it's handled by DM fiat (because they choose to not provide simulationist rules about line of sight, basically). Even in combat, a DM might still rule that they have advantage on Perception to find (passively or actively) if, like, the area is just too bright and sparse.
In other words, the "text supports this" by including it in the available actions, instead of providing simulationist rules about line of sight. Out of "combat time" most actions are up to DM interpretation, anyway.
Stealth is also listed for "escape notice by moving quietly" which also interacts with the "travel pace" rules.
"Dexterity (Stealth) allows you to escape notice by moving quietly and hiding behind things." I assumed the choice of conjunction was intentional, but I could be reading it too closely.
I think it's just listing two things you can do.
Additionally, given that "hiding" also ends if you make a sound louder than a whisper, it's also easy to interpret the DC 15 as the minimum difficulty to also stay quiet while sneaking around in battle. (Or that you need to make a second Stealth role to quietly get within attack range of someone while invisible-via-hiding.
The Hide action says it ends when "an enemy finds you" (and for that matter the Invisible condition says you are "concealed") and the Search action says perception is used to discern a "concealed creature or object." That's as clear as they are going to make it, without an entirely new section just for drawing all the rules together (which they clearly are refusing to put in the book, probably for editorial page-count reasons).
This supports the interpretation that a player could stand in a creature's line of sight (after successfully hiding) and not be found until a search action is made. I don't disagree based on the rules as written (as long as the Invisible condition is assumed to render a creature unseen), but it seems like an unintentional consequence of the wording. It brings to mind Skyrim city guard memes.
The condition says you are concealed, but doesn't say how. The Hide action gives it to you via hiding, and also gives new/extra rules for how it can end, including both someone finding you or you making a sound louder than a whisper. The spell gives you the condition via magic; it does not say you are transparent. The spell also does not end the condition if someone just "finds" you or you make too much noise. Hiding can be ended by someone finding you or hearing you; the spell cannot.
The dictionary definition of "concealed" would make sense in this interpretation: "being hidden, kept from sight, or made secret." Unfortunately, the game gives its own definition of "concealed" within the text of the Invisible condition.
"Concealed. You aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see you."
As defined, there is nothing preventing a creature with the Invisible condition from being seen, regardless of its source. The spell confers no instance of dictionary invisibility (the state of not being visible) and instead only grants the benefits listed under the Invisible condition. The "concealed" benefit actually serves no function at all, since an effect that requires its target to be seen always fails if the target is unable to be seen. It is simply restating a mechanic that exists elsewhere without adding text that renders the beneficiary unable to be seen.
This is, of course, a pedantic interpretation. I understand that the game rules are written with the intention of being adjudicated and interpreted by the GM. In this case, however, the flow of play when taking the hide action is open to many conflicting interpretations, and I would greatly appreciate clarification from the designers.
If you are "found" by one guard, but not another, you still lose the invisible condition.
The idea there, IMO, is that enemies can communicate with each other just as the players can. So if one guard finds you then as a free action that guard can point at you and shout "He's over here" which then means all the guards know were you are and you aren't hidden from any of them.
If you make a sound louder than a whisper, but you aren't near any enemies, do you lose the condition?
What do you mean by "aren't near any enemies"? But in yes, I think about this like: you're trying to hide in a forest but then you step on a twig that snaps which causes a bird in a nearby tree to startle and fly away cawing - technically you aren't near any enemies but even enemies 100+ ft away could notice that and thus be put on alert and be actively guarding against attacks from your direction thus removing any advantage from being unnoticed.
It's obviously a simplification because that's what D&D rules are, but it does make sense to me in many contexts. Personally, I just ignore the Hiding rules because hiding is such a situation-specific thing that no rule that fits on a single page in a book will cover it sufficiently, and even if those rules did exist it would be a waste of time to read them because I and my friends know how hiding works, we have squatted behind a sofa to hide from our parents or ducked inside a bush to hide when playing hide and seek or gotten lost in a crowd at an amusement park.
The 2024 rules are pretty clearly mimicking BG3 (which I suspect has something to do with Larian not being too happy with WotC), where both invisibility and hiding work the same except that when hiding you have to avoid line-of-sight with enemies but when invisible you don't have to.
The Hide action says it ends when "an enemy finds you" (and for that matter the Invisible condition says you are "concealed") and the Search action says perception is used to discern a "concealed creature or object." That's as clear as they are going to make it, without an entirely new section just for drawing all the rules together (which they clearly are refusing to put in the book, probably for editorial page-count reasons).
This supports the interpretation that a player could stand in a creature's line of sight (after successfully hiding) and not be found until a search action is made. I don't disagree based on the rules as written (as long as the Invisible condition is assumed to render a creature unseen), but it seems like an unintentional consequence of the wording. It brings to mind Skyrim city guard memes.
I think this is clearly intended (video game references notwithstanding). It's so Rogues can get melee sneak attacks from being hidden. It's why the DC is 15.
2014 didn't really have actual sneaking-around-guards rules, only "creep quietly when no-one is around." Though, that was only really true because the DMG said that everyone gets 360 degree visibility all the time, because they felt that was the only alternative to facing rules. In 2024, there are still no explicit facing rules and there is no automatic 360 degree vision, and these hiding rules implicitly make sneaking "work."
The condition says you are concealed, but doesn't say how. The Hide action gives it to you via hiding, and also gives new/extra rules for how it can end, including both someone finding you or you making a sound louder than a whisper. The spell gives you the condition via magic; it does not say you are transparent. The spell also does not end the condition if someone just "finds" you or you make too much noise. Hiding can be ended by someone finding you or hearing you; the spell cannot.
The dictionary definition of "concealed" would make sense in this interpretation: "being hidden, kept from sight, or made secret." Unfortunately, the game gives its own definition of "concealed" within the text of the Invisible condition.
"Concealed. You aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see you."
No. They are not redefining the term; they are just using the word as a descriptor. If they meant to redefine the meaning of "concealed" (to directly contradict its common english meaning), they would have given it its own entry in the rules glossary. They are actually being pretty disciplined about that in 2024.
This is, of course, a pedantic interpretation. I understand that the game rules are written with the intention of being adjudicated and interpreted by the GM. In this case, however, the flow of play when taking the hide action is open to many conflicting interpretations, and I would greatly appreciate clarification from the designers.
I agree that the designers could have done a better job at clarifying things. That's true of about 40% of the rules in the book. Copyediting is vicious and unrelenting and inevitable.
Did we ever figure out the designers' intent behind the 2024 hiding mechanics?
Has there been any errata or guidance on what the intended interpretation of these rules are?
No words yet from them on this matter, Hiding has been one of the most debated subject on various D&D forums since published.
How i interpret these rules, to try to conceal yourself you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight, so if you hide then move out of cover or obscurement in an enemy's line of sight, it finds you, as these circumstances aren't appropriate for hiding, unless i determine the creature is too distracted somehow.
In such case i could rely on the creature's Passive Perception Score, an active Wisdom (Perception) check or rule it fail to spot you entirely depending of the situation.
Did we ever figure out the designers' intent behind the 2024 hiding mechanics?
Has there been any errata or guidance on what the intended interpretation of these rules are?
No words yet from them on this matter, Hiding has been one of the most debated subject on various D&D forums since published.
How i interpret these rules, to try to conceal yourself you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight, so if you hide then move out of cover or obscurement in an enemy's line of sight, it finds you, as these circumstances aren't appropriate for hiding, unless i determine the creature is too distracted somehow.
In such case i could rely on the creature's Passive Perception Score, an active Wisdom (Perception) check or rule it fail to spot you entirely depending of the situation.
I think there are cases where continuing to hide would be impossible. A hallway a guard is looking down with no cover etc. But I always tied the lower speed into that to some degree, you are moving slower as you are taking into account things like where they are currently looking, so they move out of cover when the enemy is looking the other way.
For the general topic, I will say the implication you need to be hidden from everyone to be hidden from a specific target part of this discussion makes shadowing someone in a crowd rules problematic.
Hide's Invisible condition ends on you immediately after an enemy finds you. Besides, Condition lasts either for a duration specified by the effect that imposed the condition or until the condition is countered, meaning either you have a condition or you don’t.
The problem is that we don't know what 'find' means. There are two simple interpretations, and both of them are bad. The simple interpretations are
Finding someone requires the search action, meaning you can hide, then walk out into plain sight and do handstands, and remain unseen.
The invisible status granted by hide is lost when the requirements for taking the action are lost, meaning you get detected the moment you come into any enemy's line of sight.
Neither of those seems like the intended behavior, but there's no grounds in the rules for any more intermediate (and sensible) result.
Did we ever figure out the designers' intent behind the 2024 hiding mechanics?
Has there been any errata or guidance on what the intended interpretation of these rules are?
No words yet from them on this matter, Hiding has been one of the most debated subject on various D&D forums since published.
How i interpret these rules, to try to conceal yourself you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight, so if you hide then move out of cover or obscurement in an enemy's line of sight, it finds you, as these circumstances aren't appropriate for hiding, unless i determine the creature is too distracted somehow.
In such case i could rely on the creature's Passive Perception Score, an active Wisdom (Perception) check or rule it fail to spot you entirely depending of the situation.
For the general topic, I will say the implication you need to be hidden from everyone to be hidden from a specific target part of this discussion makes shadowing someone in a crowd rules problematic.
You can still use stealth to shadow someone in RAW. The hiding rules say you lose the condition if you are found by an "enemy." The people in the crowd are not your enemy, so they can't end your invisible condition regardless of whether they can see you.
Did we ever figure out the designers' intent behind the 2024 hiding mechanics?
Has there been any errata or guidance on what the intended interpretation of these rules are?
No words yet from them on this matter, Hiding has been one of the most debated subject on various D&D forums since published.
How i interpret these rules, to try to conceal yourself you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight, so if you hide then move out of cover or obscurement in an enemy's line of sight, it finds you, as these circumstances aren't appropriate for hiding, unless i determine the creature is too distracted somehow.
In such case i could rely on the creature's Passive Perception Score, an active Wisdom (Perception) check or rule it fail to spot you entirely depending of the situation.
For the general topic, I will say the implication you need to be hidden from everyone to be hidden from a specific target part of this discussion makes shadowing someone in a crowd rules problematic.
You can still use stealth to shadow someone in RAW. The hiding rules say you lose the condition if you are found by an "enemy." The people in the crowd are not your enemy, so they can't end your invisible condition regardless of whether they can see you.
Potentially but you are likely making sounds louder than a whisper. You will be at a stall making small talk, pretending to buy products etc. You are trying to blend into the crowd not run around in black pajamas and hiding in shadows. It is removing a more social stealth from the equation. And as a note things that effect or are triggered by enemies, allies etc always seem to cause issues in games.
Hide's Invisible condition ends on you immediately after an enemy finds you.
I agree, that part is pretty clear. The list of triggers that end Hide's Invisible condition is the section that gets messy.
Specifically "an enemy finds you", since it does not specify that the enemy must find you with the Search action.
If an enemy can see you, it would seem reasonable that it has found you. That's one interpretation I've seen a lot: you lose Hide's Invisible condition if you re-enter an enemy's line of sight.
The other main camp of opinion is the sequence of play that Kenclary described. Hide's Invisible condition persists until you are found via the search action. This allows you to remain Invisible and unseen while sneaking around.
This second interpretation makes less intuitive sense to me because it lets you hide in plain sight. However, it makes the most sense when read as written, since the concealed effect of the Invisible condition has to be taken to mean "being hidden, kept from sight, made secret." (Otherwise the Invisible condition only grants advantage on attacks and initiative, and nothing else.)
In that case, re-entering an enemy's line of sight cannot count as being "found" since you are concealed from view by the Invisible condition.
The third main interpretation I've seen basically just posits that losing the requirements for hiding also removes Hide's Invisible condition. I don't see this interpretation crop up as much, but in this style of play, the player loses the Invisible condition immediately upon exiting cover, because the circumstances are no longer appropriate for taking the hide action.
This brings to mind the Twilight cleric's infamous Steps of Night: the ability to dip a toe into a shadow to activate their flight mechanic, then proceed to continue flying even in broad daylight. Dim light is required to activate the ability, but is it required to continue using it? I think the designers meant for that to be the case, but it isn't abundantly clear.
Like I mentioned, I'm comfortable with the way I'm running it, so I'm not terribly worried about my own table. It does seem like a very confusing section for new players though, and I'd like to know what the expected sequence of play in the designers' minds actually was. Unfortunately, it seems like we probably won't be able to sus it out until someone from wizards decides to tell us. Or to actually publish an errata instead of making sneaky changes to the digital document. My physical and digital books read differently from day one lol.
The problem is that we don't know what 'find' means. There are two simple interpretations, and both of them are bad. The simple interpretations are
Finding someone requires the search action, meaning you can hide, then walk out into plain sight and do handstands, and remain unseen.
The invisible status granted by hide is lost when the requirements for taking the action are lost, meaning you get detected the moment you come into any enemy's line of sight.
Neither of those seems like the intended behavior, but there's no grounds in the rules for any more intermediate (and sensible) result.
Yes, well said. A lot more concise than the reply I just typed, but this was exactly my point.
Did we ever figure out the designers' intent behind the 2024 hiding mechanics?
Has there been any errata or guidance on what the intended interpretation of these rules are?
No words yet from them on this matter, Hiding has been one of the most debated subject on various D&D forums since published.
How i interpret these rules, to try to conceal yourself you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight, so if you hide then move out of cover or obscurement in an enemy's line of sight, it finds you, as these circumstances aren't appropriate for hiding, unless i determine the creature is too distracted somehow.
In such case i could rely on the creature's Passive Perception Score, an active Wisdom (Perception) check or rule it fail to spot you entirely depending of the situation.
For the general topic, I will say the implication you need to be hidden from everyone to be hidden from a specific target part of this discussion makes shadowing someone in a crowd rules problematic.
You can still use stealth to shadow someone in RAW. The hiding rules say you lose the condition if you are found by an "enemy." The people in the crowd are not your enemy, so they can't end your invisible condition regardless of whether they can see you.
Potentially but you are likely making sounds louder than a whisper. You will be at a stall making small talk, pretending to buy products etc. You are trying to blend into the crowd not run around in black pajamas and hiding in shadows. It is removing a more social stealth from the equation. And as a note things that effect or are triggered by enemies, allies etc always seem to cause issues in games.
If you are intentionally making noise, I would rule you aren't using the "hide" action at all. You are doing something entirely different. You might be using the "stealth" skill to prevent someone who recognizes you from noticing you are following them. You might be using the "deception" skill to dress differently so they don't recognize it's you. Or even "perform" to act like you are a customer at the stall when you're actively trying to listen to them. But you aren't taking the "hide" action.
Potentially but you are likely making sounds louder than a whisper. You will be at a stall making small talk, pretending to buy products etc. You are trying to blend into the crowd not run around in black pajamas and hiding in shadows. It is removing a more social stealth from the equation. And as a note things that effect or are triggered by enemies, allies etc always seem to cause issues in games.
If you are intentionally making noise, I would rule you aren't using the "hide" action at all. You are doing something entirely different. You might be using the "stealth" skill to prevent someone who recognizes you from noticing you are following them. You might be using the "deception" skill to dress differently so they don't recognize it's you. Or even "perform" to act like you are a customer at the stall when you're actively trying to listen to them. But you aren't taking the "hide" action.
That's the way I would see it anyway.
I agree. To follow someone without being seen at all (by the mark or by bystanders), I'd probably have the player hide or make a stealth check.
To follow someone through a crowd without being conspicuous, especially while making small talk to divert attention, I think I would call for either a deception or performance check. Taking the hide action doesn't seem appropriate there, no matter which way it's supposed to work.
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Did we ever figure out the designers' intent behind the 2024 hiding mechanics?
I'll start by saying that when it comes to adjudicating the outcome of my players' stealthy actions, I have some preferences and practices I generally rely on to make things fun and fair. I'm comfortable with the way I'm doing it; that is to say, I'm not looking for guidance on running stealth and I'm not planning on making changes just because the 2024 rules are worded a bit differently.
I am curious to understand them, though.
I recall thinking that they were a bit of a mess on my first read-through of the new Player's Handbook. Hiding now invokes the Invisible condition. The condition itself doesn't specify how it ends, but the hide action states that you lose the condition in various ways, including "if an enemy finds you". That's a little vague, but not problematic. The problem comes from the removal of the condition entirely. If you are "found" by one guard, but not another, you still lose the invisible condition. If you make a sound louder than a whisper, but you aren't near any enemies, do you lose the condition? Do you then need to make another check to hide? I know what I would do, but I'm unclear what the designers wanted us to think.
Invisible in itself is a strange condition, being that it grants you three effects, but none of them affect your visibility. (In fact, nothing at all about the 2024 spell "Invisibility" actually makes you unable to be seen, but that's off topic.)
Do you have to have the Invisible condition to be considered hidden? If a creature with Truesight looks in your direction, as written, they can see you while hidden. If they see you, you lose the Invisible condition. Can all creatures in the area see you now? Currently it seems that you cannot be hidden from one creature and not another.
The static DC is also odd. It isn't stated as a suggestion or a starting DC, it is offered as a rule. 15 is a high bar for low level play, and trivial for mid to high level play - so much so that many rogues need not roll to hide at all after level 10. It also means that hiding from a sleeping, ederly shopkeeper is just as difficult as hiding from the city's chief inspector.
Hiding is the only described use of the stealth skill in the new rules. The 2014 Players Handbook gave a much more comprehensive breakdown of skills and their potential uses. For a stealthy activity that doesn't actually involve hiding, the 2024 rules would have you make a dexterity check, not a stealth check.
Has there been any errata or guidance on what the intended interpretation of these rules are?
Nope, it is designed to be frustrating. It is also designed in a way that no 6 people will totally agree with how it actually works.
If you are a GM just figure out how you want it to work and go with that. Even if it means going back to the 2014 rules.
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Maybe this is one of the more controversial changes in the 2024 revision rules, judging by the amount of debate on the forums:
Rogue player not hiding....
EDIT: In my opinion, we need some guidance about this part of the rules.
Hiding is now the Invisible condition, with more riders (mostly additional ways it can end). Truesight won't make much of a difference unless you break cover, because Truesight does not see through obstacles. (see more about breaking cover below.)
However, once one creature has found you, you are no longer hidden (no longer get the benefits of the invisible condition, that is, but you still might be behind cover), because it's presumed they tell their allies where you are. (This was basically true in 2014 as well.)
The static DC, arguably, represents the actual new thing about hiding: you can break cover and still have the invisible condition. As long as no-one finds you (search action with your previous stealth roll as the DC), you can sneak around and avoid being percieved. If you read through everything, you'll also notice that their passive perception (when the DM chooses to invoke it, at least) can also find you without the search action.
So, someone with a high Perception will be harder to hide from (higher passive) and be better at finding you when they search.
Think of the static DC as the minimum difficulty of hiding well enough to escape notice while sneaking around (or popping up for a ranged attack) once you break cover.
Also, the DM is explicitly told to make judgement calls about the situation: say, if you hide behind a stone that's alone in a vast empty field, you may not be able to hide at all (but still use it as cover). And if you try to sneak past guards in the open, and the guards aren't distracted by anything, they may just automatically find you. Someone with Truesight might get advantage to search for you (or not, if they are busy fighting things; Truesight isn't radar or a proximity alarm). Or maybe folks get advantage on the search action, or you get disadvantage to hide, or... The base Hiding rules are clearly tuned for combat hiding.
Stealth is also listed for "escape notice by moving quietly" which also interacts with the "travel pace" rules.
The hide action is badly written and confusing. Just take the first sentences of the description as an example:
"With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you."
A character needs to be heavily obscured, or behind three-quarters or total cover AND you must be out of any enemy's line of sight.
Three quarters cover means that an obstruction blocks view of part of a creature behind it but not all of it since they can still be targeted by an attack. This means that a creature behind three quarters cover can still be seen by an enemy and thus a creature behind three quarters cover can't hide since they are not out of an enemy's line of sight.
In addition, the bit about "if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you" is also self contradictory. ANY creature you can see CAN also see you by definition unless it is blind. Whether the creature does see you or is aware of you is another question but the rules only mention "CAN". If you can see something then it can always see you unless it can't see or you are behind something like one way glass ... or an illusion. However, does this mean that you can automatically tell if a creature can see through your illusion by attempting to hide since in that case you can automatically "discern whether it can see you".
Note that "line of sight" is not defined in the rules. Is Line of Sight the direction a creature is currently looking? OR is Line of Sight any direction that a creature could look from their current position, assuming that the creature is usually looking around and not staring fixedly at one point? This would certainly affect how hiding would work behind anything that provides less than a total obstruction.
In addition, RAW, a character can always hide behind a single tree or boulder in the middle of an empty field as long as the boulder is providing total cover. This was true in the 2014 rules as well. Circumstantially, an enemy might strongly believe that the creature hiding is still behind the rock - but unless they can see the creature or the creature fails its hide check, they are no longer sure that is the case. (They could have teleported away for example).
Another issue to mention is how the invisible condition granted due to hiding is lost ...
"The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
What exactly does an "Enemy finds you" mean? Does this imply the result of a search action only? How about being able to see the "hidden" creature because they are standing in front of you and you are looking directly at them? Depending on how a DM thinks this should be interpreted, a hidden creature can either walk through a crowd without being noticed unless the creatures in the crowd explicitly search for them ... even if they can be clearly seen ... OR the hidden creature immediately loses the invisible condition as soon as they are "found" by being seen - i.e. in line of sight and not behind total cover or heavily obscured.
Fundamentally, I personally have no idea how the designers intended the hide action and the invisible condition to interact (the 2014 rules were poor but the 2024 ones actually seem worse to me) .. the terms used aren't sufficiently well defined nor described to allow the rules to be used as anything more than a guideline or suggestion. All the details are left up the DMs judgement which means that the feature may play out very differently at different tables.
TL;DR ... the 2024 rules on hiding are just badly written. In my opinion, they are so badly written that it is hard to believe that whoever wrote that section of the rules has ever tried to play or DM using that section of the rules.
This was true in combat in 2014 because of the statement regarding awareness, but that text is absent from the 2024 rules. It is less true in a situation where all parties are not immediately aware of one another and would need to actively alert an ally to the hider's current position.
This is murky. While I agree that this is a good interpretation of the rule, the text does not specify that the search action is how an enemy must "find" you. The line-of-sight statement only applies to the condition required to successfully hide. If you are hidden (invisible) and subsequently enter an enemy's line of sight, do they "find" you, or do they need to take the search action?
This is made even more confusing by having the same condition used for both magical and mundane invisibility. The spell Invisibility applies the Invisible condition. That's it. The Invisible condition does not state in its text that you are unable to be seen, but it is widely accepted that the function of that spell is to render you magically transparent or otherwise unobservable. Because the spell text uses nothing but the Invisible condition to accomplish this, and because the same condition is applied to a creature that successfully hides without a clarification regarding visibility, that creature must likewise be unable to be seen.
If the above is regarded as true, a creature can stand in front of an enemy after making a successful hide check and not be seen until the Invisible condition is removed. The condition text does not provide end triggers, so those specified in the hide action are the only ones that break the hider's invisibility. I think we can all agree that standing in the middle of a well-lit room after hiding should render you visible, but nothing in the text supports this.
"Dexterity (Stealth) allows you to escape notice by moving quietly and hiding behind things."
I assumed the choice of conjunction was intentional, but I could be reading it too closely.
The DM can try to track enemy awareness character-by-character; the rule doesn't say they can't. It's a pain, though, and trivial to just assume the enemies communicate as freely as PCs do. It would take a special new rule to say that "actively alert an ally" requires anything from the action economy. (But, suppose that the one that found you is under a Silence effect?) Anyway, they've never tried to sus out those kinds of details before, and I wouldn't have expected them to start with the 2024 rules.
The Hide action says it ends when "an enemy finds you" (and for that matter the Invisible condition says you are "concealed") and the Search action says perception is used to discern a "concealed creature or object." That's as clear as they are going to make it, without an entirely new section just for drawing all the rules together (which they clearly are refusing to put in the book, probably for editorial page-count reasons).
The condition says you are concealed, but doesn't say how. The Hide action gives it to you via hiding, and also gives new/extra rules for how it can end, including both someone finding you or you making a sound louder than a whisper. The spell gives you the condition via magic; it does not say you are transparent. The spell also does not end the condition if someone just "finds" you or you make too much noise. Hiding can be ended by someone finding you or hearing you; the spell cannot.
(Parts of just-the-condition, like from the spell, may be irrelevant if they can see you via Truesight or whatever, but Truesight wouldn't just end the condition.)
If you were invisible due to hiding, you are rendered visible if someone finds or hears you. In strict situations (like combat, when action economy is tracked and all that), this happens from the Search action or Passive Perception. Outside of combat, it's handled by DM fiat (because they choose to not provide simulationist rules about line of sight, basically). Even in combat, a DM might still rule that they have advantage on Perception to find (passively or actively) if, like, the area is just too bright and sparse.
In other words, the "text supports this" by including it in the available actions, instead of providing simulationist rules about line of sight. Out of "combat time" most actions are up to DM interpretation, anyway.
I think it's just listing two things you can do.
Additionally, given that "hiding" also ends if you make a sound louder than a whisper, it's also easy to interpret the DC 15 as the minimum difficulty to also stay quiet while sneaking around in battle. (Or that you need to make a second Stealth role to quietly get within attack range of someone while invisible-via-hiding.
This supports the interpretation that a player could stand in a creature's line of sight (after successfully hiding) and not be found until a search action is made. I don't disagree based on the rules as written (as long as the Invisible condition is assumed to render a creature unseen), but it seems like an unintentional consequence of the wording. It brings to mind Skyrim city guard memes.
The dictionary definition of "concealed" would make sense in this interpretation: "being hidden, kept from sight, or made secret." Unfortunately, the game gives its own definition of "concealed" within the text of the Invisible condition.
"Concealed. You aren't affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect's creator can somehow see you."
As defined, there is nothing preventing a creature with the Invisible condition from being seen, regardless of its source. The spell confers no instance of dictionary invisibility (the state of not being visible) and instead only grants the benefits listed under the Invisible condition. The "concealed" benefit actually serves no function at all, since an effect that requires its target to be seen always fails if the target is unable to be seen. It is simply restating a mechanic that exists elsewhere without adding text that renders the beneficiary unable to be seen.
This is, of course, a pedantic interpretation. I understand that the game rules are written with the intention of being adjudicated and interpreted by the GM. In this case, however, the flow of play when taking the hide action is open to many conflicting interpretations, and I would greatly appreciate clarification from the designers.
The idea there, IMO, is that enemies can communicate with each other just as the players can. So if one guard finds you then as a free action that guard can point at you and shout "He's over here" which then means all the guards know were you are and you aren't hidden from any of them.
What do you mean by "aren't near any enemies"? But in yes, I think about this like: you're trying to hide in a forest but then you step on a twig that snaps which causes a bird in a nearby tree to startle and fly away cawing - technically you aren't near any enemies but even enemies 100+ ft away could notice that and thus be put on alert and be actively guarding against attacks from your direction thus removing any advantage from being unnoticed.
It's obviously a simplification because that's what D&D rules are, but it does make sense to me in many contexts. Personally, I just ignore the Hiding rules because hiding is such a situation-specific thing that no rule that fits on a single page in a book will cover it sufficiently, and even if those rules did exist it would be a waste of time to read them because I and my friends know how hiding works, we have squatted behind a sofa to hide from our parents or ducked inside a bush to hide when playing hide and seek or gotten lost in a crowd at an amusement park.
The 2024 rules are pretty clearly mimicking BG3 (which I suspect has something to do with Larian not being too happy with WotC), where both invisibility and hiding work the same except that when hiding you have to avoid line-of-sight with enemies but when invisible you don't have to.
I think this is clearly intended (video game references notwithstanding). It's so Rogues can get melee sneak attacks from being hidden. It's why the DC is 15.
2014 didn't really have actual sneaking-around-guards rules, only "creep quietly when no-one is around." Though, that was only really true because the DMG said that everyone gets 360 degree visibility all the time, because they felt that was the only alternative to facing rules. In 2024, there are still no explicit facing rules and there is no automatic 360 degree vision, and these hiding rules implicitly make sneaking "work."
No. They are not redefining the term; they are just using the word as a descriptor. If they meant to redefine the meaning of "concealed" (to directly contradict its common english meaning), they would have given it its own entry in the rules glossary. They are actually being pretty disciplined about that in 2024.
I agree that the designers could have done a better job at clarifying things. That's true of about 40% of the rules in the book. Copyediting is vicious and unrelenting and inevitable.
No words yet from them on this matter, Hiding has been one of the most debated subject on various D&D forums since published.
How i interpret these rules, to try to conceal yourself you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight, so if you hide then move out of cover or obscurement in an enemy's line of sight, it finds you, as these circumstances aren't appropriate for hiding, unless i determine the creature is too distracted somehow.
In such case i could rely on the creature's Passive Perception Score, an active Wisdom (Perception) check or rule it fail to spot you entirely depending of the situation.
I think there are cases where continuing to hide would be impossible. A hallway a guard is looking down with no cover etc. But I always tied the lower speed into that to some degree, you are moving slower as you are taking into account things like where they are currently looking, so they move out of cover when the enemy is looking the other way.
For the general topic, I will say the implication you need to be hidden from everyone to be hidden from a specific target part of this discussion makes shadowing someone in a crowd rules problematic.
Hide's Invisible condition ends on you immediately after an enemy finds you. Besides, Condition lasts either for a duration specified by the effect that imposed the condition or until the condition is countered, meaning either you have a condition or you don’t.
In short, either you're Invisible or you aren’t.
The problem is that we don't know what 'find' means. There are two simple interpretations, and both of them are bad. The simple interpretations are
Neither of those seems like the intended behavior, but there's no grounds in the rules for any more intermediate (and sensible) result.
You can still use stealth to shadow someone in RAW. The hiding rules say you lose the condition if you are found by an "enemy." The people in the crowd are not your enemy, so they can't end your invisible condition regardless of whether they can see you.
Potentially but you are likely making sounds louder than a whisper. You will be at a stall making small talk, pretending to buy products etc. You are trying to blend into the crowd not run around in black pajamas and hiding in shadows. It is removing a more social stealth from the equation. And as a note things that effect or are triggered by enemies, allies etc always seem to cause issues in games.
I agree, that part is pretty clear. The list of triggers that end Hide's Invisible condition is the section that gets messy.
Specifically "an enemy finds you", since it does not specify that the enemy must find you with the Search action.
If an enemy can see you, it would seem reasonable that it has found you. That's one interpretation I've seen a lot: you lose Hide's Invisible condition if you re-enter an enemy's line of sight.
The other main camp of opinion is the sequence of play that Kenclary described. Hide's Invisible condition persists until you are found via the search action. This allows you to remain Invisible and unseen while sneaking around.
This second interpretation makes less intuitive sense to me because it lets you hide in plain sight. However, it makes the most sense when read as written, since the concealed effect of the Invisible condition has to be taken to mean "being hidden, kept from sight, made secret." (Otherwise the Invisible condition only grants advantage on attacks and initiative, and nothing else.)
In that case, re-entering an enemy's line of sight cannot count as being "found" since you are concealed from view by the Invisible condition.
The third main interpretation I've seen basically just posits that losing the requirements for hiding also removes Hide's Invisible condition. I don't see this interpretation crop up as much, but in this style of play, the player loses the Invisible condition immediately upon exiting cover, because the circumstances are no longer appropriate for taking the hide action.
This brings to mind the Twilight cleric's infamous Steps of Night: the ability to dip a toe into a shadow to activate their flight mechanic, then proceed to continue flying even in broad daylight. Dim light is required to activate the ability, but is it required to continue using it? I think the designers meant for that to be the case, but it isn't abundantly clear.
Like I mentioned, I'm comfortable with the way I'm running it, so I'm not terribly worried about my own table. It does seem like a very confusing section for new players though, and I'd like to know what the expected sequence of play in the designers' minds actually was. Unfortunately, it seems like we probably won't be able to sus it out until someone from wizards decides to tell us. Or to actually publish an errata instead of making sneaky changes to the digital document. My physical and digital books read differently from day one lol.
Yes, well said. A lot more concise than the reply I just typed, but this was exactly my point.
If you are intentionally making noise, I would rule you aren't using the "hide" action at all. You are doing something entirely different. You might be using the "stealth" skill to prevent someone who recognizes you from noticing you are following them. You might be using the "deception" skill to dress differently so they don't recognize it's you. Or even "perform" to act like you are a customer at the stall when you're actively trying to listen to them. But you aren't taking the "hide" action.
That's the way I would see it anyway.
I agree. To follow someone without being seen at all (by the mark or by bystanders), I'd probably have the player hide or make a stealth check.
To follow someone through a crowd without being conspicuous, especially while making small talk to divert attention, I think I would call for either a deception or performance check. Taking the hide action doesn't seem appropriate there, no matter which way it's supposed to work.