You touch a stone object of Medium size or smaller or a section of stone no more than 5 feet in any dimension and form it into any shape you like. For example, you could shape a large rock into a weapon, statue, or coffer, or you could make a small passage through a wall that is 5 feet thick. You could also shape a stone door or its frame to seal the door shut. The object you create can have up to two hinges and a latch, but finer mechanical detail isn’t possible.
So, if I'm reading this right, I can touch the ground at the feet of an enemy and reshape it like a roof or a dome, in such a way that this enemy ends up buried under 5 feet of stone... with no possible saving throw.
i can also create dozens of razor sharp spikes so that the enemy gets impaled multiple times as they fall in the hole...
But gravity still applies right? The duration of the spell is "instantaneous", so if I create a hole in the ground covered with spikes, the enemy will get impaled as they fall down, right? And I don't see anything preventing me from specifying that the stone covers the entire body of the enemy under a 1-foot layer of stone (this is definitely less mechanically complex than a hinge and a latch).
I specify that the stone under his feet takes a shape that covers the enemy's body. There's 125 cubic feet of stone to work with, and the average surface area of a human body is 20 square feet, so 1 foot thick is actually quite conservative. I have enough stone to completely cover them under 5 feet of stone. I don't need to push them in any direction. I just reshape the stone in the ground to cover the enemy's body. I may even keep a 1-foot wide cylinder of stone directly under the enemy's feet untouched, and only use the stone around it, so they don't even fall into the hole created by the reshaping.
Again, it's still much less complex than a hinge and a latch.
Also, why would a 5-foot drop not impale someone? I can stab someone with a sword from less than 5 feet away, but if that person fall with all their weight on a stone spike located 5 feet down, they don't get stabbed? How does that make sense?
You can't make the stone move up to the enemy. If they were already encased in stone you could do this.
Why not? The spell says "into any shape you like". Any shape. It doesn't state in which direction I can move the stone in order to get that shape. If I see 2x2x2 stone cube and want to reshape it into a 3 feet tall, 1 foot wide statue, the description says I can. It uses less stone than available, and would involve moving stone 1 foot upwards.
Plus, the description says that the target is touch. So as long as I can touch that stone, it shouldn't matter in which direction the stone moves as I shape it.
It could also move it anywhere within a five foot cube then.
The description implies more than that.
you could make a small passage through a wall that is 5 feet thick.
The only way for this to be possible is if you excavate the stone of that wall outside of the 5 feet cube that contains it. That stone HAS to go somewhere.
As a rule of thumb, expect DMs to nix these kinds of "I create an instant kill or other no save effect" attempts. Stone Shape is a utility spell, not a combat spell, and should be approached as such during play, particularly when you're clearly going way out on a limb for your effect rather than say severing a thin stone bridge over a chasm. Some DMs might allow it, but they're allowed to call a bad faith flag on that interpretation of the spell effect as well.
I don't see where the bad faith is. This spell is obviously extremely dangerous without extrapolating its usage. And it's a 4th level control spell. This is not Elementalist...
Even the example used in the description can be used in dangerous ways: what if after opening that small passage, an enemy tries to get through, and I use the spell again to close the passage while they're still in it?
And yes, if the description says I can make a statue, then I can also encase an enemy in stone. The description doesn't say that the spell comes with a security measure that prevents it from working if an enemy is nearby...
Yes, DMs should probably make some ruling to limit its usage, but RAW, it's clearly OP.
Even if the Duration is Instantaneous, the creature should have the option to make a Dexterity Saving Throw to avoid what you're proposing.
Also, as a DM, I'd say this spell isn't intended to deal damage directly, so the DC would be low.
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Saving Throws In contrast to an ability check, a saving throw is an instant response to an effect and is almost never made by choice. A saving throw makes the most sense when something bad threatens a character and the character has a chance to avoid or resist it. [...]
Hold Monster isn't intended to deal damage either. I don't understand why people in this thread are treating this spell as if it's utility when the description page of this spell clearly says "Control", not "Utility", under Damage/Effect. It's the same type of spell as Planar Binding or Command. It's meant to be used in a fight :)
First of all, the duration being "instantaneous" means it's a one and done effect, whose changes are permanent. It does not mean it necessarily happens too fast to react to.
Furthermore, if the spell's description does not say it inflicts damage or imposes a condition, then it doesn't under normal circumstances. If you're trying to assert that you can use it for that in arbitrary situations, you're going well outside the spell's description.
(Also, per the rules, a five-foot drop does no damage, spikes or no.)
Using it in specific situations is going to be up to the DM.
First of all, the duration being "instantaneous" means it's a one and done effect, whose changes are permanent. It does not mean it necessarily happens too fast to react to. [...]
I agree with this. It's what I was thinking of in my previous reply.
First of all, the duration being "instantaneous" means it's a one and done effect, whose changes are permanent. It does not mean it necessarily happens too fast to react to.
Furthermore, if the spell's description does not say it inflicts damage or imposes a condition, then it doesn't under normal circumstances. If you're trying to assert that you can use it for that in arbitrary situations, you're going well outside the spell's description.
(Also, per the rules, a five-foot drop does no damage, spikes or no.)
Using it in specific situations is going to be up to the DM.
Got it. See with the DM. Because the description of this spell is WAY too permissive to not allow aggressive usage, just because the spell's page doesn't mention a saving throw or possible damage. This spell is basically earth bending. It would take an insane amount of mental gymnastics to make me believe it's suppose to be benign, especially for a 4th level spell. At the very least, I should be able to use it like Maximilian's Earthen Grasp (which is only level 2).
At the very least, I should be able to use it like Maximilian's Earthen Grasp (which is only level 2).
I disagree. Ignoring for the moment that Earthen Grasp has a duration and ongoing effects, there is nothing in the spell's effects that suggests you can do that. If you want an in-world explanation, rather than the rules-based one, it's probably "it's not fast enough to capture an aware target".
But the rules-based explanation is what matters. Stone Shape lets you shape stone. It does not let you affect creatures. (even a stone golem) You may be able to in exceptional circumstances, but not as a matter of course.
You have a point with your "it's too slow to catch enemies unaware", but it still needs to take less than 6 seconds, and whatever the enemies could do to avoid it should be doable as a reaction. But I'm not convinced by your "it can't affect creatures". It's a 4th level spell. It's on the same power level as Control Water, and just saying "it can't affect creatures" doesn't really tell me what happens if I attempt it anyway, or if what I try to do only affects creatures indirectly, without having stone come into contact with them...
So what would you say happens if the enemy is already restrained or paralyzed as I use Shape Stone to bury or encase them? The spell description explicitly says that I can create coffers with it, so building a container large enough to contain a person is not out of the question, and there's no justification for prohibiting building that container around something... So what if I say "I touch the wall next to the paralyzed enemy and cast Shape Stone to build a stone cage around him"?
You touch a stone object of Medium size or smaller or a section of stone no more than 5 feet in any dimension and form it into any shape you like. For example, you could shape a large rock into a weapon, statue, or coffer, or you could make a small passage through a wall that is 5 feet thick. You could also shape a stone door or its frame to seal the door shut. The object you create can have up to two hinges and a latch, but finer mechanical detail isn’t possible.
So, if I'm reading this right, I can touch the ground at the feet of an enemy and reshape it like a roof or a dome, in such a way that this enemy ends up buried under 5 feet of stone... with no possible saving throw.
i can also create dozens of razor sharp spikes so that the enemy gets impaled multiple times as they fall in the hole...
Nothing in the spell description indicates you can shape the stone so that it extends beyond that original 5-foot cube
You could create a 5-foot deep hole beneath someone, sure. You could even make spikes at the bottom of your tiny pit, for minimal damage. But you couldn't create something that extended up from the ground, because there was no stone there to shape, and you couldn't enclose someone in a stone bubble beneath the floor as you described, because once you open a hole beneath their feet it would take a second casting of stone shape to close it
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https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/2619092-stone-shape
So, if I'm reading this right, I can touch the ground at the feet of an enemy and reshape it like a roof or a dome, in such a way that this enemy ends up buried under 5 feet of stone... with no possible saving throw.
i can also create dozens of razor sharp spikes so that the enemy gets impaled multiple times as they fall in the hole...
No. You cannot specify that the stone goes over the enemy to push them down.
But gravity still applies right?
The duration of the spell is "instantaneous", so if I create a hole in the ground covered with spikes, the enemy will get impaled as they fall down, right?
And I don't see anything preventing me from specifying that the stone covers the entire body of the enemy under a 1-foot layer of stone (this is definitely less mechanically complex than a hinge and a latch).
You can't impale somebody with a five foot drop. Also, how are you getting the person under the 1 foot layer of stone in your second statement?
I specify that the stone under his feet takes a shape that covers the enemy's body. There's 125 cubic feet of stone to work with, and the average surface area of a human body is 20 square feet, so 1 foot thick is actually quite conservative. I have enough stone to completely cover them under 5 feet of stone. I don't need to push them in any direction. I just reshape the stone in the ground to cover the enemy's body. I may even keep a 1-foot wide cylinder of stone directly under the enemy's feet untouched, and only use the stone around it, so they don't even fall into the hole created by the reshaping.
Again, it's still much less complex than a hinge and a latch.
Also, why would a 5-foot drop not impale someone? I can stab someone with a sword from less than 5 feet away, but if that person fall with all their weight on a stone spike located 5 feet down, they don't get stabbed? How does that make sense?
You can't make the stone move up to the enemy. If they were already encased in stone you could do this.
Why not? The spell says "into any shape you like". Any shape. It doesn't state in which direction I can move the stone in order to get that shape. If I see 2x2x2 stone cube and want to reshape it into a 3 feet tall, 1 foot wide statue, the description says I can. It uses less stone than available, and would involve moving stone 1 foot upwards.
Plus, the description says that the target is touch. So as long as I can touch that stone, it shouldn't matter in which direction the stone moves as I shape it.
It could also move it anywhere within a five foot cube then.
The description implies more than that.
The only way for this to be possible is if you excavate the stone of that wall outside of the 5 feet cube that contains it.
That stone HAS to go somewhere.
As a rule of thumb, expect DMs to nix these kinds of "I create an instant kill or other no save effect" attempts. Stone Shape is a utility spell, not a combat spell, and should be approached as such during play, particularly when you're clearly going way out on a limb for your effect rather than say severing a thin stone bridge over a chasm. Some DMs might allow it, but they're allowed to call a bad faith flag on that interpretation of the spell effect as well.
I don't see where the bad faith is. This spell is obviously extremely dangerous without extrapolating its usage. And it's a 4th level control spell. This is not Elementalist...
Even the example used in the description can be used in dangerous ways: what if after opening that small passage, an enemy tries to get through, and I use the spell again to close the passage while they're still in it?
And yes, if the description says I can make a statue, then I can also encase an enemy in stone. The description doesn't say that the spell comes with a security measure that prevents it from working if an enemy is nearby...
Yes, DMs should probably make some ruling to limit its usage, but RAW, it's clearly OP.
Even if the Duration is Instantaneous, the creature should have the option to make a Dexterity Saving Throw to avoid what you're proposing.
Also, as a DM, I'd say this spell isn't intended to deal damage directly, so the DC would be low.
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Hold Monster isn't intended to deal damage either. I don't understand why people in this thread are treating this spell as if it's utility when the description page of this spell clearly says "Control", not "Utility", under Damage/Effect. It's the same type of spell as Planar Binding or Command. It's meant to be used in a fight :)
First of all, the duration being "instantaneous" means it's a one and done effect, whose changes are permanent. It does not mean it necessarily happens too fast to react to.
Furthermore, if the spell's description does not say it inflicts damage or imposes a condition, then it doesn't under normal circumstances. If you're trying to assert that you can use it for that in arbitrary situations, you're going well outside the spell's description.
(Also, per the rules, a five-foot drop does no damage, spikes or no.)
Using it in specific situations is going to be up to the DM.
I agree with this. It's what I was thinking of in my previous reply.
Got it. See with the DM. Because the description of this spell is WAY too permissive to not allow aggressive usage, just because the spell's page doesn't mention a saving throw or possible damage. This spell is basically earth bending. It would take an insane amount of mental gymnastics to make me believe it's suppose to be benign, especially for a 4th level spell.
At the very least, I should be able to use it like Maximilian's Earthen Grasp (which is only level 2).
I disagree. Ignoring for the moment that Earthen Grasp has a duration and ongoing effects, there is nothing in the spell's effects that suggests you can do that. If you want an in-world explanation, rather than the rules-based one, it's probably "it's not fast enough to capture an aware target".
But the rules-based explanation is what matters. Stone Shape lets you shape stone. It does not let you affect creatures. (even a stone golem) You may be able to in exceptional circumstances, but not as a matter of course.
You have a point with your "it's too slow to catch enemies unaware", but it still needs to take less than 6 seconds, and whatever the enemies could do to avoid it should be doable as a reaction. But I'm not convinced by your "it can't affect creatures". It's a 4th level spell. It's on the same power level as Control Water, and just saying "it can't affect creatures" doesn't really tell me what happens if I attempt it anyway, or if what I try to do only affects creatures indirectly, without having stone come into contact with them...
So what would you say happens if the enemy is already restrained or paralyzed as I use Shape Stone to bury or encase them?
The spell description explicitly says that I can create coffers with it, so building a container large enough to contain a person is not out of the question, and there's no justification for prohibiting building that container around something...
So what if I say "I touch the wall next to the paralyzed enemy and cast Shape Stone to build a stone cage around him"?
Honest answer? Ask your DM.
Nothing in the spell description indicates you can shape the stone so that it extends beyond that original 5-foot cube
You could create a 5-foot deep hole beneath someone, sure. You could even make spikes at the bottom of your tiny pit, for minimal damage. But you couldn't create something that extended up from the ground, because there was no stone there to shape, and you couldn't enclose someone in a stone bubble beneath the floor as you described, because once you open a hole beneath their feet it would take a second casting of stone shape to close it
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)