I have something I’m unsure about in the new Vampire stat blocks. The stats that are relevant to my question are below for reference.
You can’t kill Vampires by staking them, they just get Paralyzed until the piercing object is removed. They are destroyed if they can’t shapeshift, however they change to their mist form at 0 hp if they aren’t in sunlight or running water. In their mist form they are only resistant to all damage not immune, except for sunlight damage as a vampire which they take as normal. The issue is that it doesn’t say anything anywhere about what happens if they take damage in mist form so are they just instantly destroyed or is it just impossible to harm them while they’re in mist form?
Also another question, if you stake them and drag them off to running water or sunlight, can that then kill them?
Misty Escape. If the vampire drops to 0 Hit Points outside its resting place, the vampire uses Shape-Shift to become mist (no action required). If it can’t use Shape-Shift, it is destroyed.
While it has 0 Hit Points in mist form, it can’t return to its vampire form, and it must reach its resting place within 2 hours or be destroyed. Once in its resting place, it returns to its vampire form and has the Paralyzed condition until it regains any Hit Points, and it regains 1 Hit Point after spending 1 hour there.
Stake to the Heart. If a weapon that deals Piercing damage is driven into the vampire’s heart while the vampire has the Incapacitated condition in its resting place, the vampire has the Paralyzed condition until the weapon is removed.
Shape-Shift. If the vampire isn’t in sunlight or running water, it shape-shifts into a Tiny bat (Speed 5 ft., Fly Speed 30 ft.) or a Medium cloud of mist (Speed 5 ft., Fly Speed 20 ft. [hover]), or it returns to its vampire form. Anything it is wearing transforms with it.
While in mist form, the vampire can’t take any actions, speak, or manipulate objects. It is weightless and can enter an enemy’s space and stop there. If air can pass through a space, the mist can do so, but it can’t pass through liquid. It has Resistance to all damage, except the damage it takes from sunlight.
I have something I’m unsure about in the new Vampire stat blocks. The stats that are relevant to my question are below for reference.
You can’t kill Vampires by staking them, they just get Paralyzed until the piercing object is removed. They are destroyed if they can’t shapeshift, however they change to their mist form at 0 hp if they aren’t in sunlight or running water. In their mist form they are only resistant to all damage not immune, except for sunlight damage as a vampire which they take as normal. The issue is that it doesn’t say anything anywhere about what happens if they take damage in mist form so are they just instantly destroyed or is it just impossible to harm them while they’re in mist form?
Also another question, if you stake them and drag them off to running water or sunlight, can that then kill them?
Misty Escape. If the vampire drops to 0 Hit Points outside its resting place, the vampire uses Shape-Shift to become mist (no action required). If it can’t use Shape-Shift, it is destroyed.
While it has 0 Hit Points in mist form, it can’t return to its vampire form, and it must reach its resting place within 2 hours or be destroyed. Once in its resting place, it returns to its vampire form and has the Paralyzed condition until it regains any Hit Points, and it regains 1 Hit Point after spending 1 hour there.
Stake to the Heart. If a weapon that deals Piercing damage is driven into the vampire’s heart while the vampire has the Incapacitated condition in its resting place, the vampire has the Paralyzed condition until the weapon is removed.
Shape-Shift. If the vampire isn’t in sunlight or running water, it shape-shifts into a Tiny bat (Speed 5 ft., Fly Speed 30 ft.) or a Medium cloud of mist (Speed 5 ft., Fly Speed 20 ft. [hover]), or it returns to its vampire form. Anything it is wearing transforms with it.
While in mist form, the vampire can’t take any actions, speak, or manipulate objects. It is weightless and can enter an enemy’s space and stop there. If air can pass through a space, the mist can do so, but it can’t pass through liquid. It has Resistance to all damage, except the damage it takes from sunlight.
It can be killed in its resting place. Let it regain HP while paralyzed in its resting place then kill it once and for all.
It can be killed in its resting place. Let it regain HP while paralyzed in its resting place then kill it once and for all.
It actually doesn’t state anywhere that it can be killed in its resting place, so does this mean that you have to cause running water or sunlight in the resting place to prevent the transformation because otherwise they drop to 0, reset the hour needed to regain hit points and then you still can’t kill them anyway. The stake must deal piercing damage and it causes paralyzed if they are incapacitated in their resting place until removed. So it also suggests that damage while in the resting place doesn’t kill it.
I do feel like this requires clarification because they have one way to destroy it and everything else basically suggests you paralyze it and don’t actually kill it. Also why can you cause damage to the mist form when it doesn’t tell you what happens if it does take damage. It’s at 0 hp in mist form so does that just kill the vampire? Does it do nothing meaning attacking it is useless?
A creature can only die when it drops to 0 Hit Points, and dropping to 0 Hit Points generally kills a creature. The Vampire's Misty Escape is a specific rule that supersedes that general rule, allowing them to survive when they drop to 0 Hit Points by shape-shifting into their mist form. They stay at 0 Hit Points, which means their Hit Points can't drop to 0, so no, they can't be killed while in mist form as a result of using Misty Escape. (By taking damage, at least; something like Power Word Kill could still kill them.)
As for your question "It actually doesn’t state anywhere that it can be killed in its resting place, so does this mean that you have to cause running water or sunlight in the resting place to prevent the transformation because otherwise they drop to 0, reset the hour needed to regain hit points and then you still can’t kill them anyway?" Misty Escape specifically says "If the vampire drops to 0 Hit Points outside its resting place, the vampire uses Shape-Shift to become mist." So if they are dropped to 0 Hit Points in their resting place, they cannot use Misty Escape, and thus follow the general rules for dropping to 0 Hit Points and die.
A creature can only die when it drops to 0 Hit Points, and dropping to 0 Hit Points generally kills a creature. The Vampire's Misty Escape is a specific rule that supersedes that general rule, allowing them to survive when they drop to 0 Hit Points by shape-shifting into their mist form. They stay at 0 Hit Points, which means their Hit Points can't drop to 0, so no, they can't be killed while in mist form as a result of using Misty Escape. (By taking damage, at least; something like Power Word Kill could still kill them.)
As for your question "It actually doesn’t state anywhere that it can be killed in its resting place, so does this mean that you have to cause running water or sunlight in the resting place to prevent the transformation because otherwise they drop to 0, reset the hour needed to regain hit points and then you still can’t kill them anyway?" Misty Escape specifically says "If the vampire drops to 0 Hit Points outside its resting place, the vampire uses Shape-Shift to become mist." So if they are dropped to 0 Hit Points in their resting place, they cannot use Misty Escape, and thus follow the general rules for dropping to 0 Hit Points and die.
Yeah so that’s pretty much what me and my friend determined but I really think it should be clearer on the point regarding its resting place as it can be misinterpreted or missed easily as currently written.
My question about the mist form kind of still stands though. If you can’t kill or destroy it in mist form, why does it still take any kind of damage. Why isn’t it just immune to all damage? Power word kill doesn’t deal damage so it’s a separate point altogether as it bypasses hit points entirely
I mean, it's written as plainly as anything; if you miss it that is unfortunate, but missing or misinterpreting something is always a possibility with any creature/spell/ability/whatever, and provided you don't miss it, it's perfectly clear.
As for it not being immune to damage, a Vampire doesn't only ever enter it's mist form using Misty Escape; it can also shape-shift into mist form as a Bonus Action. If being in mist form just made it outright immune to damage, then a Vampire at any time could use a Bonus Action to shape-shift into mist and be almost immortal. That's not the intent.
It's only when they're reduced to 0 Hit Points that they are forced to shift into mist - via Misty Escape - and per Misty Escape they can't then shift back into vampire form until they've returned to their resting place. If a Vampire does use a Bonus Action to shape-shift into mist (which means they still have Hit Points) and you reduce them to 0 Hit Points in their mist form, they die, because - per their Shape-Shift ability - they can't shape-shift from mist into mist, so they can't use Misty Escape.
Edit: One thing I do find silly about the Vampire, however, is that after having used Misty Escape and successfully reaching their resting place, they immediately shape-shift back into vampire form, but then still stay at 0 Hit Points for the next hour. That basically makes it so that they are - despite being in vampire form - immortal for an hour; even running water and sunlight can't hurt them during this time. So if you reach a vampire's resting place during this hour, you have to wait until the end of that hour when they regain 1 Hit Point to finish them off. Very strange.
In my opinion, they should recover 1 HP immediately upon reaching their resting place and shifting back to vampire form, but still be Paralyzed for an hour. That way if you reach their resting place before the hour is up, you can kill them immediately.
Whats clear to you is not going to be as clear for everyone which is why not making something clear is problematic. Some players need better signposting than others.
I will fully admit I didn’t think about the fact that they can change by choice before hitting 0hp and reducing their hp while transformed means they can’t misty escape. I was more focussed on the typical way to destroy them.
I believe a lot of this starts to devolve into personal preference, opinion and ruling per the DM at the table at this point
Sorry if I came off insulting, I didn't mean to be; just stating that the ability you're questioning starts with "If the vampire drops to 0 Hit Points outside its resting place," which is clear. Obviously, that's the part you missed, but the only way to make it clearer than that would be to state it multiple times, and the devs aim to avoid redundancy in these books.
People miss things and misread things; I certainly do it all the time. But the solution is - usually - to go back and read it over carefully. Or to do as you have here, and ask.
The only way they could really make things like this clearer in the writing is to state it multiple times in multiple places, which would end up making an already chunky statblock much larger. It can definitely be a shame to not have things spelled out more clearly, but it's the price we have to pay to get a book with over 500 monsters in it.
Saying “sorry if I came off insulting” and then saying “Obviously, that’s the part you missed” comes across as disingenuous, condescending and insulting.
I can agree with avoiding redundancy and not wanting to repeat information but that is most definitely not the only way to make something clearer. Rewording something rather than repeating it can make it clearer. Instead of "If the vampire drops to 0 Hit Points outside its resting place”. They could have left out the resting place part and at the end stated “The vampire cannot transform using misty escape while in its resting place”. This type of change in my opinion is much clearer because it directly brings attention to where it can’t use it as its own point, rather than an afterthought in a sentence.
I agree with your edit that it is silly the vampire does become functionally immortal for an hour. I suppose technically you could attempt to heal it to give it the hp to bring it above 0 but that seems like a waste of healing. Regaining 1 hp immediately is more logical.
It also doesn't specify if they can have more than one resting place. I assume they can only have one at a time and destroying it would result in their death if they are killed before selecting a new resting place.
Regarding the Vampire being at 0 HP for 1 hour: it does not follow that that makes them unable to die during that period. Although creatures normally die as soon as they drop to 0 HP, the rules state that the DM can choose for the creature to be treated like a character and instead make death saves. The Vampire who’s made their Misty Escape back to their resting place and is lying with 0 HP is effectively a Stable character with 0 HP. Thus, if they take further damage, the DM can choose for them to start making Death Saves (failing on any instance of damage taken).
Yes, the rules state that a DM can choose to allow a creature to make death saves. That is not the default, it is a thing a DM needs to specifically make a ruling on. By default, Vampires are effectively immortal for an hour after arriving at their resting place after using Misty Escape. Which is quite strange. While a DM can rule that they then follow the rules for Death Saves, a DM can also simply rule that damaging them during this time kills them. Much more succinct.
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I have something I’m unsure about in the new Vampire stat blocks.
The stats that are relevant to my question are below for reference.
You can’t kill Vampires by staking them, they just get Paralyzed until the piercing object is removed. They are destroyed if they can’t shapeshift, however they change to their mist form at 0 hp if they aren’t in sunlight or running water. In their mist form they are only resistant to all damage not immune, except for sunlight damage as a vampire which they take as normal. The issue is that it doesn’t say anything anywhere about what happens if they take damage in mist form so are they just instantly destroyed or is it just impossible to harm them while they’re in mist form?
Also another question, if you stake them and drag them off to running water or sunlight, can that then kill them?
Misty Escape. If the vampire drops to 0 Hit Points outside its resting place, the vampire uses Shape-Shift to become mist (no action required). If it can’t use Shape-Shift, it is destroyed.
While it has 0 Hit Points in mist form, it can’t return to its vampire form, and it must reach its resting place within 2 hours or be destroyed. Once in its resting place, it returns to its vampire form and has the Paralyzed condition until it regains any Hit Points, and it regains 1 Hit Point after spending 1 hour there.
Stake to the Heart. If a weapon that deals Piercing damage is driven into the vampire’s heart while the vampire has the Incapacitated condition in its resting place, the vampire has the Paralyzed condition until the weapon is removed.
Shape-Shift. If the vampire isn’t in sunlight or running water, it shape-shifts into a Tiny bat (Speed 5 ft., Fly Speed 30 ft.) or a Medium cloud of mist (Speed 5 ft., Fly Speed 20 ft. [hover]), or it returns to its vampire form. Anything it is wearing transforms with it.
While in mist form, the vampire can’t take any actions, speak, or manipulate objects. It is weightless and can enter an enemy’s space and stop there. If air can pass through a space, the mist can do so, but it can’t pass through liquid. It has Resistance to all damage, except the damage it takes from sunlight.
It can be killed in its resting place. Let it regain HP while paralyzed in its resting place then kill it once and for all.
It actually doesn’t state anywhere that it can be killed in its resting place, so does this mean that you have to cause running water or sunlight in the resting place to prevent the transformation because otherwise they drop to 0, reset the hour needed to regain hit points and then you still can’t kill them anyway. The stake must deal piercing damage and it causes paralyzed if they are incapacitated in their resting place until removed. So it also suggests that damage while in the resting place doesn’t kill it.
I do feel like this requires clarification because they have one way to destroy it and everything else basically suggests you paralyze it and don’t actually kill it. Also why can you cause damage to the mist form when it doesn’t tell you what happens if it does take damage. It’s at 0 hp in mist form so does that just kill the vampire? Does it do nothing meaning attacking it is useless?
I believe vampires using Misty Escape to turn into mist form can't be killed with damage being already at 0 hit points.
It's destroyed if it can't do so, or if it can't reach it's resting place in time or if it's coffin is immersed in water for example.
A creature can only die when it drops to 0 Hit Points, and dropping to 0 Hit Points generally kills a creature. The Vampire's Misty Escape is a specific rule that supersedes that general rule, allowing them to survive when they drop to 0 Hit Points by shape-shifting into their mist form. They stay at 0 Hit Points, which means their Hit Points can't drop to 0, so no, they can't be killed while in mist form as a result of using Misty Escape. (By taking damage, at least; something like Power Word Kill could still kill them.)
As for your question "It actually doesn’t state anywhere that it can be killed in its resting place, so does this mean that you have to cause running water or sunlight in the resting place to prevent the transformation because otherwise they drop to 0, reset the hour needed to regain hit points and then you still can’t kill them anyway?"
Misty Escape specifically says "If the vampire drops to 0 Hit Points outside its resting place, the vampire uses Shape-Shift to become mist." So if they are dropped to 0 Hit Points in their resting place, they cannot use Misty Escape, and thus follow the general rules for dropping to 0 Hit Points and die.
Yeah so that’s pretty much what me and my friend determined but I really think it should be clearer on the point regarding its resting place as it can be misinterpreted or missed easily as currently written.
My question about the mist form kind of still stands though. If you can’t kill or destroy it in mist form, why does it still take any kind of damage. Why isn’t it just immune to all damage? Power word kill doesn’t deal damage so it’s a separate point altogether as it bypasses hit points entirely
I mean, it's written as plainly as anything; if you miss it that is unfortunate, but missing or misinterpreting something is always a possibility with any creature/spell/ability/whatever, and provided you don't miss it, it's perfectly clear.
As for it not being immune to damage, a Vampire doesn't only ever enter it's mist form using Misty Escape; it can also shape-shift into mist form as a Bonus Action. If being in mist form just made it outright immune to damage, then a Vampire at any time could use a Bonus Action to shape-shift into mist and be almost immortal. That's not the intent.
It's only when they're reduced to 0 Hit Points that they are forced to shift into mist - via Misty Escape - and per Misty Escape they can't then shift back into vampire form until they've returned to their resting place.
If a Vampire does use a Bonus Action to shape-shift into mist (which means they still have Hit Points) and you reduce them to 0 Hit Points in their mist form, they die, because - per their Shape-Shift ability - they can't shape-shift from mist into mist, so they can't use Misty Escape.
Edit: One thing I do find silly about the Vampire, however, is that after having used Misty Escape and successfully reaching their resting place, they immediately shape-shift back into vampire form, but then still stay at 0 Hit Points for the next hour. That basically makes it so that they are - despite being in vampire form - immortal for an hour; even running water and sunlight can't hurt them during this time. So if you reach a vampire's resting place during this hour, you have to wait until the end of that hour when they regain 1 Hit Point to finish them off. Very strange.
In my opinion, they should recover 1 HP immediately upon reaching their resting place and shifting back to vampire form, but still be Paralyzed for an hour. That way if you reach their resting place before the hour is up, you can kill them immediately.
Whats clear to you is not going to be as clear for everyone which is why not making something clear is problematic. Some players need better signposting than others.
I will fully admit I didn’t think about the fact that they can change by choice before hitting 0hp and reducing their hp while transformed means they can’t misty escape. I was more focussed on the typical way to destroy them.
I believe a lot of this starts to devolve into personal preference, opinion and ruling per the DM at the table at this point
Sorry if I came off insulting, I didn't mean to be; just stating that the ability you're questioning starts with "If the vampire drops to 0 Hit Points outside its resting place," which is clear.
Obviously, that's the part you missed, but the only way to make it clearer than that would be to state it multiple times, and the devs aim to avoid redundancy in these books.
People miss things and misread things; I certainly do it all the time. But the solution is - usually - to go back and read it over carefully. Or to do as you have here, and ask.
The only way they could really make things like this clearer in the writing is to state it multiple times in multiple places, which would end up making an already chunky statblock much larger. It can definitely be a shame to not have things spelled out more clearly, but it's the price we have to pay to get a book with over 500 monsters in it.
Saying “sorry if I came off insulting” and then saying “Obviously, that’s the part you missed” comes across as disingenuous, condescending and insulting.
I can agree with avoiding redundancy and not wanting to repeat information but that is most definitely not the only way to make something clearer. Rewording something rather than repeating it can make it clearer. Instead of "If the vampire drops to 0 Hit Points outside its resting place”. They could have left out the resting place part and at the end stated “The vampire cannot transform using misty escape while in its resting place”. This type of change in my opinion is much clearer because it directly brings attention to where it can’t use it as its own point, rather than an afterthought in a sentence.
I agree with your edit that it is silly the vampire does become functionally immortal for an hour. I suppose technically you could attempt to heal it to give it the hp to bring it above 0 but that seems like a waste of healing. Regaining 1 hp immediately is more logical.
It also doesn't specify if they can have more than one resting place. I assume they can only have one at a time and destroying it would result in their death if they are killed before selecting a new resting place.
Regarding the Vampire being at 0 HP for 1 hour: it does not follow that that makes them unable to die during that period. Although creatures normally die as soon as they drop to 0 HP, the rules state that the DM can choose for the creature to be treated like a character and instead make death saves. The Vampire who’s made their Misty Escape back to their resting place and is lying with 0 HP is effectively a Stable character with 0 HP. Thus, if they take further damage, the DM can choose for them to start making Death Saves (failing on any instance of damage taken).
Yes, the rules state that a DM can choose to allow a creature to make death saves. That is not the default, it is a thing a DM needs to specifically make a ruling on. By default, Vampires are effectively immortal for an hour after arriving at their resting place after using Misty Escape. Which is quite strange.
While a DM can rule that they then follow the rules for Death Saves, a DM can also simply rule that damaging them during this time kills them. Much more succinct.