Because that's exactly what the Emanation rule says can be done:
An Emanation’s origin (creature or object) isn’t included in the area of effect unless its creator decides otherwise.
The PC is still the one casting the spell, but the Emanation's origin is the illusion. Because that's precisely what Invoke Duplicity allows:
You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space
Which effectively makes the illusion the origin of the emanation, even though it's not the caster. Therefore, an Emanation's origin (the illusion) isn't included in the area of effect unless its creator (the PC) decides otherwise.
The PC is still the one casting the spell, but the Emanation's origin is the illusion. Because that's precisely what Invoke Duplicity allows:
You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space
Nowhere does Invoke Duplicity say the spell originates from the illusion. Again, you are conflating the illusion and the illusion's space -- which was the very first thing I said in this thread, and which you ignored
Even if you think the point of origin can be exempted -- a point in space is also not a creature or object, by the way, so it can't, but let's say for the sake of argument I agreed that it could -- that's still not the illusion itself. You cast antimagic field through the illusion, and the illusion goes poof, because it cannot be exempted from the emanation
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
My idea would be to use Invoke Duplicity, then use Invoke Duplicity: Cast Spells to create an Antimagic Field that targets the duplicate, then move the duplicate around without casting any other spells with it.
Invoke Duplicate: As a Bonus Action, you can expend one use of your Channel Divinity to create a perfect visual illusion of yourself in an unoccupied space you can see within 30 feet of yourself. The illusion is intangible and doesn't occupy its space. It lasts for 1 minute, but it ends early if you dismiss it (no action required) or have the Incapacitated condition. The illusion is animated and mimics your expressions and gestures. While it persists, you gain the following benefits.
Key points before we get further.
Channel Divinity: "You can channel divine energy directly from the Outer Planes to fuel magical effects." As mentioned before all Channel Divinity features are magical effects.
Invoke Duplicate creates Illusions. By definition Illusions are magical unless explicitly stated otherwise.
The illusion is not a creature or object and is therefore not a valid target for any spells that do not target a spell effect.
It is a Bonus Action to create the effect and Bonus Action to move the illusion.
An aura of antimagic surrounds you in 10-foot Emanation. No one can cast spells, take Magic actions, or create other magical effects inside the aura, and those things can’t target or otherwise affect anything inside it. Magical properties of magic items don’t work inside the aura or on anything inside it.
Areas of effect created by spells or other magic can’t extend into the aura, and no one can teleport into or out of it or use planar travel there. Portals close temporarily while in the aura.
Ongoing spells, except those cast by an Artifact or a deity, are suppressed in the area. While an effect is suppressed, it doesn’t function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its duration.
Dispel Magic has no effect on the aura, and the auras created by different Antimagic Field spells don’t nullify each other.
Key take aways from Antimagic Field
Spells cannot be cast in the area and Magic actions cannot be taken. Other magical effects cannot be created.
Areas of effects of spells and other magic cannot extend into the area.
Ongoing spells are suppressed (not dispelled). Can you concentrate on a suppressed spell?
Antimagic Field explicitly doesn't nullify Antimagic Field.
For reference, it may be also helpful to examine Mirror Image (Area of Effect is implied since the duplicates are all in your space), Major Image (explicit Area of Effect), and Minor Illusion (explicit Area of Effect). These are very similar to the effect created by Invoke Duplicity and may not affect RAW, but influence RAI.
My Conclusions:
Invoke Duplicity cannot be initiated while the Cleric is withing the area of an Antimagic Field.
Because Invoke Duplicity is a magical effect and not a spell, it is by RAW not suppressed by Antimagic Field. However, as demonstrated by the above spells that create a similar effect, RAI is probably that the space occupied by the Illusion is an area of effect and there for cannot exist inside the Antimagic Field.
Using the Bonus Action to move the illusion if it is not suppressed might be allowed. It would depend if the DM considers moving the illusion "creating a magic effect".
If the Illusion is within the Antimagic Field, using the Cast Spells feature will fail because the cleric will be casting spells as if they were inside the area of an Antimagic Field.
If the Cleric is withing the Antimagic Field and the Duplicate is outside, it should be fine to cast spells originating from the Duplicate since those spells would be cast as if outside the area of an Antimagic Field.
The PC is still the one casting the spell, but the Emanation's origin is the illusion. Because that's precisely what Invoke Duplicity allows:
You can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space
Nowhere does Invoke Duplicity say the spell originates from the illusion. Again, you are conflating the illusion and the illusion's space -- which was the very first thing I said in this thread, and which you ignored
I didn't say they were the same. I'm simply saying that the only way an emanation can originate from an illusion's space, as Invoke Duplicity says, is if the target becomes the illusion. Otherwise it's impossible, and you might just unilaterally decide that "Invoke Duplicity: Cast Spells" doesn't work for spells of which the target is "self". It's like saying "the specific rules of Invoke Duplicity don't matter because of the general rules of Emanations".
The illusion is not a creature or object and is therefore not a valid target for any spells that do not target a spell effect.
As a general rule, yes. But I would argue that Invoke Duplicity: Cast Spells says otherwise in the case where the target is "Self". The only way the sentence "as though you were in the illusion's space" can possibly make sense for self-targeting spells is if the target is the illusion's space instead of the caster for this specific case.
Ongoing spells are suppressed (not dispelled). Can you concentrate on a suppressed spell?
The case highlighted by this sentence "while an effect is suppressed, it doesn’t function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its duration" would never happen if it wasn't possible to concentrate on a suppressed spell, as they would immediately stop functioning, and the time spent counting against its duration would be irrelevant.
I didn't say they were the same. I'm simply saying that the only way an emanation can originate from an illusion's space, as Invoke Duplicity says, is if the target becomes the illusion. Otherwise it's impossible, and you might just unilaterally decide that "Invoke Duplicity: Cast Spells" doesn't work for spells of which the target is "self". It's like saying "the specific rules of Invoke Duplicity don't matter because of the general rules of Emanations".
Sorry, that's not how it works. All Invoke Duplicity does is change the point in space where the spell comes from. Everything else about the spell says the same. Just because you have trouble wrapping your head around that doesn't mean you get to invent new rules
I even gave you, earlier in the thread, a way in which emanation spells could work without originating from the illusion itself
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
There's a misunderstanding here I think. I'm not inventing new rules, just applying the more specific ones in priority compared to the general ones. If the specific rule of Invoke Duplicity says "you can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space" then everything related to casting such spell should work as if the caster was in the illusion's space, even if it contradicts some general rules.
Yes, the caster is not where the illusion is, and yes, the spells are still cast by the caster. But when it comes to where the spells are located (including their spatial origin), it's the illusion's location that should be considered, not the caster's. Because that's what Invoke Duplicity says.
Nothing more, nothing less. That's not inventing new rules. That's simply applying the "specific beats general" principle.
There's a misunderstanding here I think. I'm not inventing new rules, just applying the more specific ones in priority compared to the general ones. If the specific rule of Invoke Duplicity says "you can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space" then everything related to casting such spell should work as if the caster was in the illusion's space, even if it contradicts some general rules.
Yes, the caster is not where the illusion is, and yes, the spells are still cast by the caster. But when it comes to where the spells are located (including their spatial origin), it's the illusion's location that should be considered, not the caster's. Because that's what Invoke Duplicity says.
And that's where you conflate the illusion, and the illusion's space. They are not the same thing
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The illusion is not a creature or object and is therefore not a valid target for any spells that do not target a spell effect.
As a general rule, yes. But I would argue that Invoke Duplicity: Cast Spells says otherwise in the case where the target is "Self". The only way the sentence "as though you were in the illusion's space" can possibly make sense for self-targeting spells is if the target is the illusion's space instead of the caster for this specific case.
In order for the Illusion to be a creature, Invoke Duplicity has to to explicitly state that it is a creature. However, I am not sure that it matters for what you actually want. Invoke Duplicity never changes the target of the spell directly.
If you cast Mage Armor "as though you were in the illusion's space", you cast the spell on yourself.
If you cast Gust of Wind "as though you were in the illusion's space", you cast the spell with a "target" of self, but you determine the effect from the space of the illusion. The Line starts at the Illusions space, not the one the Cleric is standing in.
Think of it as two effects that are related:
You create a space that you can cast spells from and you can move the space around as a Bonus Action.
There is an Illusion in the space that mimics you and can provide you with Advantage on attack rolls.
Note that the Illusion does not make sounds so Verbal Components for spells will appear to come from the Cleric, but other components will appear to be fulfilled by both.
Ongoing spells are suppressed (not dispelled). Can you concentrate on a suppressed spell?
The case highlighted by this sentence "while an effect is suppressed, it doesn’t function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its duration" would never happen if it wasn't possible to concentrate on a suppressed spell, as they would immediately stop functioning, and the time spent counting against its duration would be irrelevant.
Spells can have durations without needing concentration. Mage Armor, for example, would be suppressed and the time spent suppressed would count towards the 8 hour duration. It is more of a question that if a spell requires concentration, is concentrating on that spell an aspect of the spell's function and therefore suppressed (ending the spell when it is suppressed) or is it independent?
RAI is probably that the space occupied by the Illusion is an area of effect and there for cannot exist inside the Antimagic Field
I'm not so sure about that, considering that Invoke Duplicity explicitly states that the illusion does not occupy its space.
Otherwise yes, I think your conclusions make sense.
None of the examples (Mirror Image, Minor Illusion, and Major Image) occupy a space. They create effects in a space, but the space is unoccupied. As far as the illusion itself, they are direct parallels to Invoke Duplicity. That is my basis for saying RAI is probably that Invoke Duplicity should be suspended while the illusion is inside the area of an Antimagic Field.
In the case of antimagic field, emanates from the caster and appears to move with the caster, meaning it is not fixed in space once cast. Because of this, I imagine the caster can cast the spell from the location of their duplicate, at which time the spell will go off, suppress all magic within its area of effect (including the magical duplicate) and then instantly pop back to emanate from the caster in the caster's position from that point onward. Even though the caster may not be affected by the emanation, the AoE is going to emanate from the caster, centered on the caster for the duration of the spell. The caster is only in the location of the duplicate for the instant of casting.
The rule about the emanation not including the origin (the caster in this case) doesn't change this process, as I look at it.
[...] Yes, the caster is not where the illusion is, and yes, the spells are still cast by the caster. But when it comes to where the spells are located (including their spatial origin), it's the illusion's location that should be considered, not the caster's. Because that's what Invoke Duplicity says. [...]
I agree with you.
Invoke Duplicity behaves similarly to Gaze of Two Minds:
While perceiving through the other creature’s senses, you benefit from any special senses possessed by that creature, and you can cast spells as if you were in your space or the other creature’s space if the two of you are within 60 feet of each other.
With Gaze of Two Minds, you can use the other creature's space to cast Eldritch Blast or Chill Touch, for example, as if you were there.
I would be surprised if, as a Cleric, you couldn't use Cure Wounds (a Touch spell) or Aura of Vitality (*) thanks to Invoke Duplicity. Concentration spells were actually mentioned in the pre-release video (around 25:17), and I think for a good reason New Cleric | 2024 Player's Handbook | D&D:
"[...] you can now summon up your illusory duplicate as a bonus action instead of an action, and you do not have to concentrate on it anymore [...] the combination before of it taking your entire action and you having to concentrate on it meant you were in some ways being shut down in two ways: you were spending in a whole turn bringing it out and then you couldn't at the same time have any of the clerics really nice concentration spells going simultaneously [...]"
(*) disclaimer: I'm aware about the creature/object discussion for Emanation.
Because that's exactly what the Emanation rule says can be done:
The PC is still the one casting the spell, but the Emanation's origin is the illusion. Because that's precisely what Invoke Duplicity allows:
Which effectively makes the illusion the origin of the emanation, even though it's not the caster.
Therefore, an Emanation's origin (the illusion) isn't included in the area of effect unless its creator (the PC) decides otherwise.
Which only means the origin can be the caster, not that it must.
Nowhere does Invoke Duplicity say the spell originates from the illusion. Again, you are conflating the illusion and the illusion's space -- which was the very first thing I said in this thread, and which you ignored
Even if you think the point of origin can be exempted -- a point in space is also not a creature or object, by the way, so it can't, but let's say for the sake of argument I agreed that it could -- that's still not the illusion itself. You cast antimagic field through the illusion, and the illusion goes poof, because it cannot be exempted from the emanation
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Key points before we get further.
Key take aways from Antimagic Field
For reference, it may be also helpful to examine Mirror Image (Area of Effect is implied since the duplicates are all in your space), Major Image (explicit Area of Effect), and Minor Illusion (explicit Area of Effect). These are very similar to the effect created by Invoke Duplicity and may not affect RAW, but influence RAI.
My Conclusions:
How to add Tooltips.
I didn't say they were the same. I'm simply saying that the only way an emanation can originate from an illusion's space, as Invoke Duplicity says, is if the target becomes the illusion. Otherwise it's impossible, and you might just unilaterally decide that "Invoke Duplicity: Cast Spells" doesn't work for spells of which the target is "self".
It's like saying "the specific rules of Invoke Duplicity don't matter because of the general rules of Emanations".
As a general rule, yes. But I would argue that Invoke Duplicity: Cast Spells says otherwise in the case where the target is "Self".
The only way the sentence "as though you were in the illusion's space" can possibly make sense for self-targeting spells is if the target is the illusion's space instead of the caster for this specific case.
The case highlighted by this sentence "while an effect is suppressed, it doesn’t function, but the time it spends suppressed counts against its duration" would never happen if it wasn't possible to concentrate on a suppressed spell, as they would immediately stop functioning, and the time spent counting against its duration would be irrelevant.
I'm not so sure about that, considering that Invoke Duplicity explicitly states that the illusion does not occupy its space.
Otherwise yes, I think your conclusions make sense.
Sorry, that's not how it works. All Invoke Duplicity does is change the point in space where the spell comes from. Everything else about the spell says the same. Just because you have trouble wrapping your head around that doesn't mean you get to invent new rules
I even gave you, earlier in the thread, a way in which emanation spells could work without originating from the illusion itself
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
There's a misunderstanding here I think. I'm not inventing new rules, just applying the more specific ones in priority compared to the general ones. If the specific rule of Invoke Duplicity says "you can cast spells as though you were in the illusion's space" then everything related to casting such spell should work as if the caster was in the illusion's space, even if it contradicts some general rules.
Yes, the caster is not where the illusion is, and yes, the spells are still cast by the caster. But when it comes to where the spells are located (including their spatial origin), it's the illusion's location that should be considered, not the caster's. Because that's what Invoke Duplicity says.
Nothing more, nothing less. That's not inventing new rules. That's simply applying the "specific beats general" principle.
And that's where you conflate the illusion, and the illusion's space. They are not the same thing
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
In order for the Illusion to be a creature, Invoke Duplicity has to to explicitly state that it is a creature. However, I am not sure that it matters for what you actually want. Invoke Duplicity never changes the target of the spell directly.
If you cast Mage Armor "as though you were in the illusion's space", you cast the spell on yourself.
If you cast Gust of Wind "as though you were in the illusion's space", you cast the spell with a "target" of self, but you determine the effect from the space of the illusion. The Line starts at the Illusions space, not the one the Cleric is standing in.
Think of it as two effects that are related:
Note that the Illusion does not make sounds so Verbal Components for spells will appear to come from the Cleric, but other components will appear to be fulfilled by both.
Spells can have durations without needing concentration. Mage Armor, for example, would be suppressed and the time spent suppressed would count towards the 8 hour duration. It is more of a question that if a spell requires concentration, is concentrating on that spell an aspect of the spell's function and therefore suppressed (ending the spell when it is suppressed) or is it independent?
None of the examples (Mirror Image, Minor Illusion, and Major Image) occupy a space. They create effects in a space, but the space is unoccupied. As far as the illusion itself, they are direct parallels to Invoke Duplicity. That is my basis for saying RAI is probably that Invoke Duplicity should be suspended while the illusion is inside the area of an Antimagic Field.
Edit: Corrected tooltip.
How to add Tooltips.
In the case of antimagic field, emanates from the caster and appears to move with the caster, meaning it is not fixed in space once cast. Because of this, I imagine the caster can cast the spell from the location of their duplicate, at which time the spell will go off, suppress all magic within its area of effect (including the magical duplicate) and then instantly pop back to emanate from the caster in the caster's position from that point onward. Even though the caster may not be affected by the emanation, the AoE is going to emanate from the caster, centered on the caster for the duration of the spell. The caster is only in the location of the duplicate for the instant of casting.
The rule about the emanation not including the origin (the caster in this case) doesn't change this process, as I look at it.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I agree with you.
Invoke Duplicity behaves similarly to Gaze of Two Minds:
With Gaze of Two Minds, you can use the other creature's space to cast Eldritch Blast or Chill Touch, for example, as if you were there.
I would be surprised if, as a Cleric, you couldn't use Cure Wounds (a Touch spell) or Aura of Vitality (*) thanks to Invoke Duplicity. Concentration spells were actually mentioned in the pre-release video (around 25:17), and I think for a good reason New Cleric | 2024 Player's Handbook | D&D:
(*) disclaimer: I'm aware about the creature/object discussion for Emanation.