I would allow the monk to initiate the grapple from 15 ft away, but unless they then moved to within 5' of the grappled target, or pulled the grappled target to within 5' of the monk, the grapple would end.
Abilities that allow for extra reach do not cause your arms to grow longer, they involve darting in to make the attack, then returning to your original position (aka lunge). Some of the monk's abilities to make melee attacks out to a longer distance can be explained that way, or it can be explained as using air currents, etc. and allow the monk to drag the target closer. I would not allow them to maintain the grapple from that distance.
As for the Echo, the intent of the echo is to allow the Echo Knight to attack from another location. The Echo can't open doors, wash the dishes, or grapple someone preventing their movement. My opinion (which was informed (at least partly) by watching the person who created the subclass use that subclass in 2 streamed campaigns - as I'm sure many here have), is that the Echo cannot start or maintain a grapple, it can only move and attack.
the Echo cannot start or maintain a grapple, it can only move and attack.
RAW it can. A grapple is an attack and the rules say it can duplicate ANY attack the PC makes.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
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the Echo cannot start or maintain a grapple, it can only move and attack.
RAW it can. A grapple is an attack and the rules say it can duplicate ANY attack the PC makes.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
Just to be precise, the echo isn't making the attack. You are making the attack, just from the echo's space, so of course you can make any attack you can make
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Abilities that allow for extra reach do not cause your arms to grow longer, they involve darting in to make the attack, then returning to your original position (aka lunge). Some of the monk's abilities to make melee attacks out to a longer distance can be explained that way, or it can be explained as using air currents, etc. and allow the monk to drag the target closer. I would not allow them to maintain the grapple from that distance.
This is always the thing when you drag flavor into a rules argument. If air currents can drag an enemy closer, why can't air currents hold them in their current spot? Why can't ice pin their feet to the ground? Etc.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I would allow the monk to initiate the grapple from 15 ft away, but unless they then moved to within 5' of the grappled target, or pulled the grappled target to within 5' of the monk, the grapple would end.
Abilities that allow for extra reach do not cause your arms to grow longer, they involve darting in to make the attack, then returning to your original position (aka lunge). Some of the monk's abilities to make melee attacks out to a longer distance can be explained that way, or it can be explained as using air currents, etc. and allow the monk to drag the target closer. I would not allow them to maintain the grapple from that distance.
The subclass was printed in the same exact book that tied Grapple to Unarmed Strike. And it specifies, as the flavor, "elemental energy extends from you". What part of that indicates that the monk or enemy must move, or that the grapple doesn't have a 15' reach?
Your interpretation is wrong, RAW, and steals from the players.
That discussion was had in a different context in the above-linked element monk grappling thread.
Yes, you can only reach the target when you make an attack through the echo. There are already situations where a single character can have multiple reaches. What ought to be relevant is the range of the grapple. The target was in reach of the grapple at the time you made it. No effect that allowed this has ended. There's a very good case to be made that it's still in range of the grapple. The fact that it may not be in range of some other attack you could make under other circumstances is not relevant.
Frankly, the more I dig in in order to argue this, the sounder I think it is. It's still not text, but it's not way out in left field either.
Also, having gone back to look at the 14 grapple rules, this was already a live question with the echo knight even before the rule update, since grappling was still part of the attack action back then, and the folks who wrote the echo knight just failed to think about it either way. (Or thought it was 'obvious'.)
The Manifest Echo ability allows attacks to originate from the Echo's space. It does not allow you to maintain effects of those attacks after the attack is resolved. As weird as it may be, you would need to maintain grapple from the monk's space even if it is initiated from the Echo's space. You could make an argument for Advantage on the attempt due to surprise hands.
If I have an Echo 30 feet away from me and Grapple a creature 5-15 feet further away, I can initiate the grapple, but it is immediately out of my range and the grapple ends.
Manifest Echo is weird. It seems to be similar to Invoke Duplicity but it has an AC and 1 Hit Point yet it is not identified as a creature or an object. I think it needs to be cleaned up, but as far as grappling, the opportunity for far hugs is there, but they will be brief. Consider shoving it prone instead (but only if everyone is within 5 ft of the target in order to get Advantage, otherwise don't. It's bad.).
"It's a matter of intent." How does that make sense referring to the 2024 rules?
What is the intent of the echo knight ability? It's to let you make attacks from a second point in space.
What is the intent of a grapple? It's an attack that lets you restrict an opponent's movement.
If the EK ability lets you grapple from its position, which it absolutely does, then "you can do it, but it doesn't really do anything" is a violation of the intent of both the EK ability and of grappling.
More generally: If an ability lets you do something, it should actually let you do that thing.
There's not even any RAW it has to override here, but it would override it anyway.
Also, your echo doesn't increase your reach: it lets you make the attack as if you were in the position. Afterwards, it is no longer as if you are there and you are (probably) now to far away.
Your reach is not a single absolute number. It is a property of an attack.* Was the creature in reach of the grapple? Self-evidently yes -- you grappled it. Have the conditions changed? They have not -- the echo still exists, and you're still using elemental attunement. (Anyway, elemental attunement is irrelevant here. The question "of can you grapple through an echo" should have the same answer whether or not you're using it. "Can Element Monks make long grapples?" is a different question and, as far as I'm concerned, it's RAW that they can.)
* You can't make an opportunity attack with a reach weapon when somebody moves from adjacent to you. If you have a whip in one hand and a short sword in the other, you can't attack with the whip when they leave five feet, and you can't attack with the sword when they leave ten.
"It's a matter of intent." How does that make sense referring to the 2024 rules?
What is the intent of the echo knight ability? It's to let you make attacks from a second point in space.
What is the intent of a grapple? It's an attack that lets you restrict an opponent's movement.
If the EK ability lets you grapple from its position, which it absolutely does, then "you can do it, but it doesn't really do anything" is a violation of the intent of both the EK ability and of grappling.
More generally: If an ability lets you do something, it should actually let you do that thing.
There's not even any RAW it has to override here, but it would override it anyway.
Also, your echo doesn't increase your reach: it lets you make the attack as if you were in the position. Afterwards, it is no longer as if you are there and you are (probably) now to far away.
Your reach is not a single absolute number. It is a property of an attack.* Was the creature in reach of the grapple? Self-evidently yes -- you grappled it. Have the conditions changed? They have not -- the echo still exists, and you're still using elemental attunement. (Anyway, elemental attunement is irrelevant here. The question "of can you grapple through an echo" should have the same answer whether or not you're using it. "Can Element Monks make long grapples?" is a different question and, as far as I'm concerned, it's RAW that they can.)
* You can't make an opportunity attack with a reach weapon when somebody moves from adjacent to you. If you have a whip in one hand and a short sword in the other, you can't attack with the whip when they leave five feet, and you can't attack with the sword when they leave ten.
The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.
So your claim is that "the grapple's range" is the distance between you and the echo plus your reach, rather than just your reach.
Your reach is not a single absolute number. It is a property of an attack.* Was the creature in reach of the grapple? Self-evidently yes -- you grappled it. Have the conditions changed? They have not -- the echo still exists, and you're still using elemental attunement. (Anyway, elemental attunement is irrelevant here. The question "of can you grapple through an echo" should have the same answer whether or not you're using it. "Can Element Monks make long grapples?" is a different question and, as far as I'm concerned, it's RAW that they can.)
* You can't make an opportunity attack with a reach weapon when somebody moves from adjacent to you. If you have a whip in one hand and a short sword in the other, you can't attack with the whip when they leave five feet, and you can't attack with the sword when they leave ten.
The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.
So your claim is that "the grapple's range" is the distance between you and the echo plus your reach, rather than just your reach.
The range of a grapple from the echo is the distance from the echo.
If the range of an attack is defined from the character, then you can't actually make the attack from the echo in the first place. If the target was in range of the attack to make the attack, why would it not be in range to maintain the attack?
The fact that the rules on grapples do not explicitly account for the possibility of being able to attack from a point in space that you do not occupy is... not surprising. This is an exception-based game.
If the echo knight said "you cannot grapple", we wouldn't be having this discussion.
If the echo knight said "you can grapple", while I'm sure some people would be making the argument still, it'd be a fairly fringe position.
As it is, it does not say explicitly either way.
But it does say so implicitly. It says you can attack from the echo as part of the attack action. It does not restrict you to certain types of attacks. Grappling is an attack you can make as part of the attack action. Therefore you can grapple from the echo. Therefore, the range of the grapple must be measured from the echo to make the attack.
Then going and saying that the range of the grapple to hold the grapple is measured from the player does not strike me as a well-supported interpretation.
Your reach is not a single absolute number. It is a property of an attack.* Was the creature in reach of the grapple? Self-evidently yes -- you grappled it. Have the conditions changed? They have not -- the echo still exists, and you're still using elemental attunement. (Anyway, elemental attunement is irrelevant here. The question "of can you grapple through an echo" should have the same answer whether or not you're using it. "Can Element Monks make long grapples?" is a different question and, as far as I'm concerned, it's RAW that they can.)
* You can't make an opportunity attack with a reach weapon when somebody moves from adjacent to you. If you have a whip in one hand and a short sword in the other, you can't attack with the whip when they leave five feet, and you can't attack with the sword when they leave ten.
The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.
So your claim is that "the grapple's range" is the distance between you and the echo plus your reach, rather than just your reach.
The range of a grapple from the echo is the distance from the echo.
If the range of an attack is defined from the character, then you can't actually make the attack from the echo in the first place. If the target was in range of the attack to make the attack, why would it not be in range to maintain the attack?
The fact that the rules on grapples do not explicitly account for the possibility of being able to attack from a point in space that you do not occupy is... not surprising. This is an exception-based game.
If the echo knight said "you cannot grapple", we wouldn't be having this discussion.
If the echo knight said "you can grapple", while I'm sure some people would be making the argument still, it'd be a fairly fringe position.
As it is, it does not say explicitly either way.
But it does say so implicitly. It says you can attack from the echo as part of the attack action. It does not restrict you to certain types of attacks. Grappling is an attack you can make as part of the attack action. Therefore you can grapple from the echo. Therefore, the range of the grapple must be measured from the echo to make the attack.
Then going and saying that the range of the grapple to hold the grapple is measured from the player does not strike me as a well-supported interpretation.
"...if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range." Read that closely. Either you are claiming that the echo is the grappler (despite it not having hands), or your calculation for the grapple's range is as I described.
Your reach is not a single absolute number. It is a property of an attack.* Was the creature in reach of the grapple? Self-evidently yes -- you grappled it. Have the conditions changed? They have not -- the echo still exists, and you're still using elemental attunement. (Anyway, elemental attunement is irrelevant here. The question "of can you grapple through an echo" should have the same answer whether or not you're using it. "Can Element Monks make long grapples?" is a different question and, as far as I'm concerned, it's RAW that they can.)
* You can't make an opportunity attack with a reach weapon when somebody moves from adjacent to you. If you have a whip in one hand and a short sword in the other, you can't attack with the whip when they leave five feet, and you can't attack with the sword when they leave ten.
1. You can only make attacks from the Echo's space during the Attack action. No other time. Anyone can freely leave the melee "reach" of the Echo. The Echo Knight cannot make attacks of opportunity from the Echo's square.
2. When a creature leaves an opponent's reach, the opponent can choose how to attack. If a creatures moves 5 feet away from a creature with a whip, they have left the unarmed strike reach but the creature can absolutely make a whip attack as a reaction.
You can only make attacks from the Echo's space during the Attack action. No other time. Anyone can freely leave the melee "reach" of the Echo. The Echo Knight cannot make attacks of opportunity from the Echo's square.
Err, they can, actually
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
You can only make attacks from the Echo's space during the Attack action. No other time. Anyone can freely leave the melee "reach" of the Echo. The Echo Knight cannot make attacks of opportunity from the Echo's square.
Err, they can, actually
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo’s space.
Oops. Responding on my phone for that one and couldn't look it up. The point still stands somewhat. If you are wielding a Reach weapon and character outside of 5 feet leaves the weapon's reach, you cannot make an attack of opportunity attack with the reach weapon.
Again, the Echo is written strangely and it might be RAI that they can.
Even so, you are still never actually in the Echo's space and cannot ... *checks* ... maintain contact via your Echo. This can actually be a boon too. For example, attacking a Mimic via your Echo can ensure that after the attack you are too far for a grapple to be maintained. New role unlocked: Echo punch all chests to see if they are mimics.
"...if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range." Read that closely. Either you are claiming that the echo is the grappler (despite it not having hands), or your calculation for the grapple's range is as I described.
The question is "why would echo knight's ability override all the rules about attack ranges except this one?"
What makes grappling special?
Why rule it that way? How does it improve the game to rule the point of interpretation the way you do?
What other attack rider effects go weird by your ruling?
I would like to highlight that the echo looks like you, and is a manifestation of you, but does not have the same abilities as you.
Now to highlight some specific vs general differences:
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo's space. You make this choice for each attack.
When a creature that you can see within 5 feet of your echo moves at least 5 feet away from it, you can use your reaction to make an opportunity attack against that creature as if you were in the echo's space.
notice for the reaction it specifically states “as if you were in the echos space” meaning it can do what you can do. But for the attack it can just do the same attacks- not “as if you did the attack yourself”
notice for the reaction it specifically states “as if you were in the echos space” meaning it can do what you can do
This seems to come up a lot in these threads (and not just about the echo knight), but "it" isn't actually doing anything. The echo knight is still the one making all the attacks, per RAW; they just have a choice of which space the attack originates from
The distinction does matter, and not thinking of it in terms of "the echo does this" but rather "the echo knight does this from the echo's space" can help clear up at least some of the confusion about how the feature should work
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
"...if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range." Read that closely. Either you are claiming that the echo is the grappler (despite it not having hands), or your calculation for the grapple's range is as I described.
The question is "why would echo knight's ability override all the rules about attack ranges except this one?"
What makes grappling special?
Why rule it that way? How does it improve the game to rule the point of interpretation the way you do?
What other attack rider effects go weird by your ruling?
Are you going to read and respond to my posts, or are you going to keep making etherial justifications?
"...if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range." Read that closely. Either you are claiming that the echo is the grappler (despite it not having hands), or your calculation for the grapple's range is as I described.
The question is "why would echo knight's ability override all the rules about attack ranges except this one?"
What makes grappling special?
Why rule it that way? How does it improve the game to rule the point of interpretation the way you do?
What other attack rider effects go weird by your ruling?
Are you going to read and respond to my posts, or are you going to keep making etherial justifications?
I responded, at least twice.
D&D is an exception-based set of rules. It presents general rules, and specific abilities grant exceptions to those rules.
You are presenting the general rule to try to argue that the ability doesn't get to make an exception.
If you were presenting the general rules on range of attacks to argue that the echo knight ability doesn't let you make any attacks through it unless the target is in reach of the PC, it would be self-evidently absurd.
Because the answer isn't explicitly written, there's some ambiguity here, but the general rule in and of itself doesn't cut it. Is holding a grapple not part of the grapple attack? Why?
D&D is not Magic the Gathering. While it needs a generally consistent set of rules, it does not need, nor does it have,, nor can it have, a mechanistic system that is supposed to answer all questions unambiguously. (And even MtG has at least one "because we said so" ruling that isn't really derivable from the rules.)
D&D has a somebody who can interpret the rules to answer the inevitable ambiguities. And when they come up, the intent of the abilities involved matters at least as much as rules cites of ambiguous applicability.
This is such a case. You can rule it either way at your table; there is no 100% authoritative answer.
But one answer goes with the observable intent of the abilities in question, and it ain't yours.
"...if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range." Read that closely. Either you are claiming that the echo is the grappler (despite it not having hands), or your calculation for the grapple's range is as I described.
The question is "why would echo knight's ability override all the rules about attack ranges except this one?"
What makes grappling special?
Why rule it that way? How does it improve the game to rule the point of interpretation the way you do?
What other attack rider effects go weird by your ruling?
Are you going to read and respond to my posts, or are you going to keep making etherial justifications?
I responded, at least twice.
t. It presents general rules, and specific abilities grant exceptions to those rules.
You are presenting the general rule to try to argue that the ability doesn't get to make an exception.
If you were presenting the general rules on range of attacks to argue that the echo knight ability doesn't let you make any attacks through it unless the target is in reach of the PC, it would be self-evidently absurd.
Because the answer isn't explicitly written, there's some ambiguity here, but the general rule in and of itself doesn't cut it. Is holding a grapple not part of the grapple attack? Why?
D&D is not Magic the Gathering. While it needs a generally consistent set of rules, it does not need, nor does it have,, nor can it have, a mechanistic system that is supposed to answer all questions unambiguously. (And even MtG has at least one "because we said so" ruling that isn't really derivable from the rules.)
D&D has a somebody who can interpret the rules to answer the inevitable ambiguities. And when they come up, the intent of the abilities involved matters at least as much as rules cites of ambiguous applicability.
This is such a case. You can rule it either way at your table; there is no 100% authoritative answer.
But one answer goes with the observable intent of the abilities in question, and it ain't yours.
"Is holding a grapple not part of the grapple attack? Why?" Because the rules exist. You don't make exceptions unless there is a direct contradiction. Your entire argument is that, because you can attack, you can fully use the grapple option RAI. You need to understand that "D&D is an exception-based set of rules."
"Is holding a grapple not part of the grapple attack? Why?" Because the rules exist. You don't make exceptions unless there is a direct contradiction. Your entire argument is that, because you can attack, you can fully use the grapple option RAI. You need to understand that "D&D is an exception-based set of rules."
I don't know if RAI is that it can maintain the grapple, but RAW, it can't for the reasons you've already given. Similarly, RAI, it probably should be able to make attacks of opportunity based on changes in reach due to size or weapons, but RAW, it can't.
I would allow the monk to initiate the grapple from 15 ft away, but unless they then moved to within 5' of the grappled target, or pulled the grappled target to within 5' of the monk, the grapple would end.
Abilities that allow for extra reach do not cause your arms to grow longer, they involve darting in to make the attack, then returning to your original position (aka lunge). Some of the monk's abilities to make melee attacks out to a longer distance can be explained that way, or it can be explained as using air currents, etc. and allow the monk to drag the target closer. I would not allow them to maintain the grapple from that distance.
As for the Echo, the intent of the echo is to allow the Echo Knight to attack from another location. The Echo can't open doors, wash the dishes, or grapple someone preventing their movement. My opinion (which was informed (at least partly) by watching the person who created the subclass use that subclass in 2 streamed campaigns - as I'm sure many here have), is that the Echo cannot start or maintain a grapple, it can only move and attack.
Playing D&D since 1982
Have played every version of the game since Basic (Red Box Set), except that abomination sometimes called 4e.
RAW it can. A grapple is an attack and the rules say it can duplicate ANY attack the PC makes.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Just to be precise, the echo isn't making the attack. You are making the attack, just from the echo's space, so of course you can make any attack you can make
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
This is always the thing when you drag flavor into a rules argument. If air currents can drag an enemy closer, why can't air currents hold them in their current spot? Why can't ice pin their feet to the ground? Etc.
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The subclass was printed in the same exact book that tied Grapple to Unarmed Strike. And it specifies, as the flavor, "elemental energy extends from you". What part of that indicates that the monk or enemy must move, or that the grapple doesn't have a 15' reach?
Your interpretation is wrong, RAW, and steals from the players.
The Manifest Echo ability allows attacks to originate from the Echo's space. It does not allow you to maintain effects of those attacks after the attack is resolved. As weird as it may be, you would need to maintain grapple from the monk's space even if it is initiated from the Echo's space. You could make an argument for Advantage on the attempt due to surprise hands.
If I have an Echo 30 feet away from me and Grapple a creature 5-15 feet further away, I can initiate the grapple, but it is immediately out of my range and the grapple ends.
Manifest Echo is weird. It seems to be similar to Invoke Duplicity but it has an AC and 1 Hit Point yet it is not identified as a creature or an object. I think it needs to be cleaned up, but as far as grappling, the opportunity for far hugs is there, but they will be brief. Consider shoving it prone instead (but only if everyone is within 5 ft of the target in order to get Advantage, otherwise don't. It's bad.).
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.
What is the intent of the echo knight ability? It's to let you make attacks from a second point in space.
What is the intent of a grapple? It's an attack that lets you restrict an opponent's movement.
If the EK ability lets you grapple from its position, which it absolutely does, then "you can do it, but it doesn't really do anything" is a violation of the intent of both the EK ability and of grappling.
More generally: If an ability lets you do something, it should actually let you do that thing.
There's not even any RAW it has to override here, but it would override it anyway.
Your reach is not a single absolute number. It is a property of an attack.* Was the creature in reach of the grapple? Self-evidently yes -- you grappled it. Have the conditions changed? They have not -- the echo still exists, and you're still using elemental attunement. (Anyway, elemental attunement is irrelevant here. The question "of can you grapple through an echo" should have the same answer whether or not you're using it. "Can Element Monks make long grapples?" is a different question and, as far as I'm concerned, it's RAW that they can.)
* You can't make an opportunity attack with a reach weapon when somebody moves from adjacent to you. If you have a whip in one hand and a short sword in the other, you can't attack with the whip when they leave five feet, and you can't attack with the sword when they leave ten.
So your claim is that "the grapple's range" is the distance between you and the echo plus your reach, rather than just your reach.
The range of a grapple from the echo is the distance from the echo.
If the range of an attack is defined from the character, then you can't actually make the attack from the echo in the first place. If the target was in range of the attack to make the attack, why would it not be in range to maintain the attack?
The fact that the rules on grapples do not explicitly account for the possibility of being able to attack from a point in space that you do not occupy is... not surprising. This is an exception-based game.
If the echo knight said "you cannot grapple", we wouldn't be having this discussion.
If the echo knight said "you can grapple", while I'm sure some people would be making the argument still, it'd be a fairly fringe position.
As it is, it does not say explicitly either way.
But it does say so implicitly. It says you can attack from the echo as part of the attack action. It does not restrict you to certain types of attacks. Grappling is an attack you can make as part of the attack action. Therefore you can grapple from the echo. Therefore, the range of the grapple must be measured from the echo to make the attack.
Then going and saying that the range of the grapple to hold the grapple is measured from the player does not strike me as a well-supported interpretation.
"...if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range." Read that closely. Either you are claiming that the echo is the grappler (despite it not having hands), or your calculation for the grapple's range is as I described.
1. You can only make attacks from the Echo's space during the Attack action. No other time. Anyone can freely leave the melee "reach" of the Echo. The Echo Knight cannot make attacks of opportunity from the Echo's square.
2. When a creature leaves an opponent's reach, the opponent can choose how to attack. If a creatures moves 5 feet away from a creature with a whip, they have left the unarmed strike reach but the creature can absolutely make a whip attack as a reaction.
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Err, they can, actually
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Oops. Responding on my phone for that one and couldn't look it up. The point still stands somewhat. If you are wielding a Reach weapon and character outside of 5 feet leaves the weapon's reach, you cannot make an attack of opportunity attack with the reach weapon.
Again, the Echo is written strangely and it might be RAI that they can.
Even so, you are still never actually in the Echo's space and cannot ... *checks* ... maintain contact via your Echo. This can actually be a boon too. For example, attacking a Mimic via your Echo can ensure that after the attack you are too far for a grapple to be maintained. New role unlocked: Echo punch all chests to see if they are mimics.
How to add Tooltips.
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The question is "why would echo knight's ability override all the rules about attack ranges except this one?"
What makes grappling special?
Why rule it that way? How does it improve the game to rule the point of interpretation the way you do?
What other attack rider effects go weird by your ruling?
I would like to highlight that the echo looks like you, and is a manifestation of you, but does not have the same abilities as you.
Now to highlight some specific vs general differences:
notice for the reaction it specifically states “as if you were in the echos space” meaning it can do what you can do. But for the attack it can just do the same attacks- not “as if you did the attack yourself”
Blank
This seems to come up a lot in these threads (and not just about the echo knight), but "it" isn't actually doing anything. The echo knight is still the one making all the attacks, per RAW; they just have a choice of which space the attack originates from
The distinction does matter, and not thinking of it in terms of "the echo does this" but rather "the echo knight does this from the echo's space" can help clear up at least some of the confusion about how the feature should work
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Are you going to read and respond to my posts, or are you going to keep making etherial justifications?
I responded, at least twice.
D&D is an exception-based set of rules. It presents general rules, and specific abilities grant exceptions to those rules.
You are presenting the general rule to try to argue that the ability doesn't get to make an exception.
If you were presenting the general rules on range of attacks to argue that the echo knight ability doesn't let you make any attacks through it unless the target is in reach of the PC, it would be self-evidently absurd.
Because the answer isn't explicitly written, there's some ambiguity here, but the general rule in and of itself doesn't cut it. Is holding a grapple not part of the grapple attack? Why?
D&D is not Magic the Gathering. While it needs a generally consistent set of rules, it does not need, nor does it have,, nor can it have, a mechanistic system that is supposed to answer all questions unambiguously. (And even MtG has at least one "because we said so" ruling that isn't really derivable from the rules.)
D&D has a somebody who can interpret the rules to answer the inevitable ambiguities. And when they come up, the intent of the abilities involved matters at least as much as rules cites of ambiguous applicability.
This is such a case. You can rule it either way at your table; there is no 100% authoritative answer.
But one answer goes with the observable intent of the abilities in question, and it ain't yours.
"Is holding a grapple not part of the grapple attack? Why?" Because the rules exist. You don't make exceptions unless there is a direct contradiction. Your entire argument is that, because you can attack, you can fully use the grapple option RAI. You need to understand that "D&D is an exception-based set of rules."
I don't know if RAI is that it can maintain the grapple, but RAW, it can't for the reasons you've already given. Similarly, RAI, it probably should be able to make attacks of opportunity based on changes in reach due to size or weapons, but RAW, it can't.
How to add Tooltips.
My houserulings.