So I got an idea for a character that seems a lot of fun but I'm really good in thinking of fun idea's that turn out to be horrible (because I misread something). So I thought. Lets share the idea and see if I misread something and if folks have advice for me.
So the base is Echo knight + Warrior of the Elemental monk + Grappler feat
The idea is that I can start grappling people from a range of 15 through both myself and the Echo. I've already seem some discussions if grappling from 15 range with Warrior of the Elemental monk should work and from what I've gathered it does. This should also work with my echo, right? That should probably open up a lot of interesting tactics and it would allow me to defend my squishy allies from two positions at once with a lot of range to do so.
Does anyone think I'm missing something and does anyone have maybe more fun idea's to play with?
I believe that would work. As for fun ideas, if you agree that true strike works with agonizing blast, I have a build of paladin 1, warlock 2, valor bard 6, devotion paladin 3, celestial warlock 6, champion fighter 4 paladin 4. This would allow casting true strike and adding cha. mod. 4 times on hit, and then attacking again from valor bard extra attack. If either is a crit. from 19 or 20, you can cast divine smite and use eldritch smite. Also, divine favor and hex increase your damage, weapon mastery can be used, pact of the blade can be taken, and magic initiate can be taken for the origin feat to get a familiar.
Pick up the Unarmed Fighting Style so you can do a free 1d4 damage every round to those you are grappling. Nothing says you and your echo cannot grapple the same target.
Pick up the Unarmed Fighting Style so you can do a free 1d4 damage every round to those you are grappling. Nothing says you and your echo cannot grapple the same target.
Nothing says that because that's nonsensical. The echo doesn't have hands to grapple,
This echo is a magical, translucent, gray image of you
and that is a requirement for grappling.
A creature must have a hand free to grapple another creature.
Upon reviewing, I realize that you also can't grapple with the echo at all. (unless the target is within 5 feet of you anyways)
The condition also ends ... if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.
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"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"A duck."
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
How does that refute my points? This allows you to initiate a grapple from the echo's space, but it then immediately ends if you are not within 5 feet of the target.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"A duck."
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
I think this is an example of using the ‘24 rules on grappling and a ‘14 subclass (which honestly has been a big pain in the ass all along) having a strange interaction. It might work, but I’d definitely run this by the DM.
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
How does that refute my points? This allows you to initiate a grapple from the echo's space, but it then immediately ends if you are not within 5 feet of the target.
The PC has 15 feet of reach, 20 if they're a Bugbear. The echo can only be summoned 15 feet away. I'm sure it can be managed.
So I got an idea for a character that seems a lot of fun but I'm really good in thinking of fun idea's that turn out to be horrible (because I misread something). So I thought. Lets share the idea and see if I misread something and if folks have advice for me.
So the base is Echo knight + Warrior of the Elemental monk + Grappler feat
The idea is that I can start grappling people from a range of 15 through both myself and the Echo. I've already seem some discussions if grappling from 15 range with Warrior of the Elemental monk should work and from what I've gathered it does. This should also work with my echo, right? That should probably open up a lot of interesting tactics and it would allow me to defend my squishy allies from two positions at once with a lot of range to do so.
Does anyone think I'm missing something and does anyone have maybe more fun idea's to play with?
That requires many favourable DM rulings, I personally do not rule that Warrior of the Elements can maintain a grapple at 15 fit, nor would I rule that an echo can maintain a grapple. Sure both can initiate such a grapple, but at the end of your turn the grapple would end immediately unless the target of the grapple is within 5ft of you because they would otherwise be outside of your reach and thus the grapple breaks.Maintaining a grapple requires that the grapplee remain within the unarmed strike reach of the grappler at all times even when the grappler is not "making an attack".
However, the "reach extending-ness" of various features is often left unclear thus open to alternative interpretations. So your best bet is to talk to your DM about whether or not they would allow it. Grappling with reach is in general border-lien game breakingly OP which is why I personally don't allow it at my table unless the rules are completely unambiguous that it works.
That requires many favourable DM rulings, I personally do not rule that Warrior of the Elements can maintain a grapple at 15 fit, nor would I rule that an echo can maintain a grapple. Sure both can initiate such a grapple, but at the end of your turn the grapple would end immediately unless the target of the grapple is within 5ft of you because they would otherwise be outside of your reach and thus the grapple breaks. Maintaining a grapple requires that the grapplee remain within the unarmed strike reach of the grappler at all times even when the grappler is not "making an attack".
Putting on my DM hat: I'd say yes to the monk having a reach of 15 feet when it comes to maintaining a grapple, due to the flavor of the subclass and the fact that Elemental Attunement lasts for 10 minutes. (The monk can always try to drag the enemy 10 feet closer on a hit if the DM says no to this, by the way.)
I would say no to the echo being able to do it, though. That ki Focus Point you spent only gives you Elemental Attunement, and your echo is very specifically not you.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
That requires many favourable DM rulings, I personally do not rule that Warrior of the Elements can maintain a grapple at 15 fit, nor would I rule that an echo can maintain a grapple. Sure both can initiate such a grapple, but at the end of your turn the grapple would end immediately unless the target of the grapple is within 5ft of you because they would otherwise be outside of your reach and thus the grapple breaks. Maintaining a grapple requires that the grapplee remain within the unarmed strike reach of the grappler at all times even when the grappler is not "making an attack".
Putting on my DM hat: I'd say yes to the monk having a reach of 15 feet when it comes to maintaining a grapple, due to the flavor of the subclass and the fact that Elemental Attunement lasts for 10 minutes. (The monk can always try to drag the enemy 10 feet closer on a hit if the DM says no to this, by the way.)
I would say no to the echo being able to do it, though. That ki Focus Point you spent only gives you Elemental Attunement, and your echo is very specifically not you.
I agree on the ranged monk grappling. I don't think it's even particularly unclear.
Grappling through the echo is, ultimately, going to be a GM call. The ability lets you make your attacks through the echo, so you can definitely make a 15-foot unarmed attack from that point.
Whether you can hold the grapple (any grapple) from the echo is undefined. It requires an interpretation of whether "the grappler" is the PC, or the entity from which the grappling attack originated, and under the rules where echo knight was written, grappling wasn't making an attack, so they didn't clarify the point. (And they might not have thought of it anyway.)
Whether you can hold the grapple (any grapple) from the echo is undefined. It requires an interpretation of whether "the grappler" is the PC, or the entity from which the grappling attack originated, and under the rules where echo knight was written, grappling wasn't making an attack, so they didn't clarify the point. (And they might not have thought of it anyway.)
Given the wording on that echo knight ability
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
You could maaaaybe make a case that the monk themselves can maintain the grapple after the original attack comes from the echo's space, provided the target is within range of the monk. The monk is still making the attack, after all -- it's just coming from somewhere else on the map
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
How does that refute my points? This allows you to initiate a grapple from the echo's space, but it then immediately ends if you are not within 5 feet of the target.
The PC has 15 feet of reach, 20 if they're a Bugbear. The echo can only be summoned 15 feet away. I'm sure it can be managed.
My bad, you can grapple from your echo's position if the target is within your range anyways. I guess this helps with cover. This still doesn't let the echo maintain the grapple themselves.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"A duck."
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
That would be my ruling as well: The echo's position can be used to make the grapple. You lose the grapple immediately if you're not within 15 feet of the target personally (with a clear line of effect).
The 15 ft reach should work though, it very clearly extends your reach for the Unarmed Strike and Grapple is part of Unarmed Strike. This doesn't seem to be an accident, given that the new rule and subclass came out at the same time.
Whether you can hold the grapple (any grapple) from the echo is undefined. It requires an interpretation of whether "the grappler" is the PC, or the entity from which the grappling attack originated, and under the rules where echo knight was written, grappling wasn't making an attack, so they didn't clarify the point. (And they might not have thought of it anyway.)
Given the wording on that echo knight ability
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
You could maaaaybe make a case that the monk themselves can maintain the grapple after the original attack comes from the echo's space, provided the target is within range of the monk. The monk is still making the attack, after all -- it's just coming from somewhere else on the map
You can make the case for a lot of things. It's ultimately not explicitly defined, because. the echo knight wasn't written for grappling, and the grapple rules weren't written for attacks that originate from a point that is not the character.
As I said, it's a GM call.
That said, I'm going to take a stronger position than I did yesterday:
You should let it work.
It's a matter of intent. The intent of echo knight is that you can attack from the echo. Grapple is an attack. Part of grapple is that you can hold it. "You can make the grapple but you can't hold it" really means "you can't make the grapple".
Let people grapple things. It's not going to break the game.
Whether you can hold the grapple (any grapple) from the echo is undefined. It requires an interpretation of whether "the grappler" is the PC, or the entity from which the grappling attack originated, and under the rules where echo knight was written, grappling wasn't making an attack, so they didn't clarify the point. (And they might not have thought of it anyway.)
Given the wording on that echo knight ability
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
You could maaaaybe make a case that the monk themselves can maintain the grapple after the original attack comes from the echo's space, provided the target is within range of the monk. The monk is still making the attack, after all -- it's just coming from somewhere else on the map
You can make the case for a lot of things. It's ultimately not explicitly defined, because. the echo knight wasn't written for grappling, and the grapple rules weren't written for attacks that originate from a point that is not the character.
As I said, it's a GM call.
That said, I'm going to take a stronger position than I did yesterday:
You should let it work.
It's a matter of intent. The intent of echo knight is that you can attack from the echo. Grapple is an attack. Part of grapple is that you can hold it. "You can make the grapple but you can't hold it" really means "you can't make the grapple".
Let people grapple things. It's not going to break the game.
The one time I've toyed with an echo knight build, it was on a character who was haunted by/bonded to the ghost of her twin sister, so I was looking at different combinations of astral arms monk plus levels of echo knight and/or undead warlock. As the whole point of the build would be that the ghost/echo could physically interact with things (the Telekinesis feat would probably creep in there along the way, for instance), then yeah, letting it grapple even from a distance would make sense
We're very much getting into Rule of Cool territory there though
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Whether you can hold the grapple (any grapple) from the echo is undefined. It requires an interpretation of whether "the grappler" is the PC, or the entity from which the grappling attack originated, and under the rules where echo knight was written, grappling wasn't making an attack, so they didn't clarify the point. (And they might not have thought of it anyway.)
Given the wording on that echo knight ability
When you take the Attack action on your turn, any attack you make with that action can originate from your space or the echo’s space. You make this choice for each attack.
You could maaaaybe make a case that the monk themselves can maintain the grapple after the original attack comes from the echo's space, provided the target is within range of the monk. The monk is still making the attack, after all -- it's just coming from somewhere else on the map
You can make the case for a lot of things. It's ultimately not explicitly defined, because. the echo knight wasn't written for grappling, and the grapple rules weren't written for attacks that originate from a point that is not the character.
As I said, it's a GM call.
That said, I'm going to take a stronger position than I did yesterday:
You should let it work.
It's a matter of intent. The intent of echo knight is that you can attack from the echo. Grapple is an attack. Part of grapple is that you can hold it. "You can make the grapple but you can't hold it" really means "you can't make the grapple".
Let people grapple things. It's not going to break the game.
I really disagree with this. By the 2014 rules, a grapple ends if an effect moves the target out of your reach. Therefore, since you can only attack from the echo "When you take the Attack action on your turn...", you can't reach the target otherwise. You only have that option when you are taking the attack action, not at any other time.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"A duck."
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
You can make the case for a lot of things. It's ultimately not explicitly defined, because. the echo knight wasn't written for grappling, and the grapple rules weren't written for attacks that originate from a point that is not the character.
As I said, it's a GM call.
That said, I'm going to take a stronger position than I did yesterday:
You should let it work.
It's a matter of intent. The intent of echo knight is that you can attack from the echo. Grapple is an attack. Part of grapple is that you can hold it. "You can make the grapple but you can't hold it" really means "you can't make the grapple".
Let people grapple things. It's not going to break the game.
I really disagree with this. By the 2014 rules, a grapple ends if an effect moves the target out of your reach.
We're talking 24 rules, but it doesn't change anything here
14:
The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
24:
The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.
Therefore, since you can only attack from the echo "When you take the Attack action on your turn...", you can't reach the target otherwise. You only have that option when you are taking the attack action, not at any other time.
That discussion was had in a different context in the above-linked element monk grappling thread.
Yes, you can only reach the target when you make an attack through the echo. There are already situations where a single character can have multiple reaches. What ought to be relevant is the range of the grapple. The target was in reach of the grapple at the time you made it. No effect that allowed this has ended. There's a very good case to be made that it's still in range of the grapple. The fact that it may not be in range of some other attack you could make under other circumstances is not relevant.
Frankly, the more I dig in in order to argue this, the sounder I think it is. It's still not text, but it's not way out in left field either.
Also, having gone back to look at the 14 grapple rules, this was already a live question with the echo knight even before the rule update, since grappling was still part of the attack action back then, and the folks who wrote the echo knight just failed to think about it either way. (Or thought it was 'obvious'.)
You can make the case for a lot of things. It's ultimately not explicitly defined, because. the echo knight wasn't written for grappling, and the grapple rules weren't written for attacks that originate from a point that is not the character.
As I said, it's a GM call.
That said, I'm going to take a stronger position than I did yesterday:
You should let it work.
It's a matter of intent. The intent of echo knight is that you can attack from the echo. Grapple is an attack. Part of grapple is that you can hold it. "You can make the grapple but you can't hold it" really means "you can't make the grapple".
Let people grapple things. It's not going to break the game.
I really disagree with this. By the 2014 rules, a grapple ends if an effect moves the target out of your reach.
We're talking 24 rules, but it doesn't change anything here
14:
The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell.
24:
The condition also ends if the grappler has the Incapacitated condition or if the distance between the Grappled target and the grappler exceeds the grapple’s range.
Therefore, since you can only attack from the echo "When you take the Attack action on your turn...", you can't reach the target otherwise. You only have that option when you are taking the attack action, not at any other time.
That discussion was had in a different context in the above-linked element monk grappling thread.
Yes, you can only reach the target when you make an attack through the echo. There are already situations where a single character can have multiple reaches. What ought to be relevant is the range of the grapple. The target was in reach of the grapple at the time you made it. No effect that allowed this has ended. There's a very good case to be made that it's still in range of the grapple. The fact that it may not be in range of some other attack you could make under other circumstances is not relevant.
Frankly, the more I dig in in order to argue this, the sounder I think it is. It's still not text, but it's not way out in left field either.
Also, having gone back to look at the 14 grapple rules, this was already a live question with the echo knight even before the rule update, since grappling was still part of the attack action back then, and the folks who wrote the echo knight just failed to think about it either way. (Or thought it was 'obvious'.)
"It's a matter of intent." How does that make sense referring to the 2024 rules?
Also, your echo doesn't increase your reach: it lets you make the attack as if you were in the position. Afterwards, it is no longer as if you are there and you are (probably) now to far away.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are to fast: I would catch it."
"I cannot comment on an ongoing investigation."
"Well of course I know that. What else is there? A kitten?"
"You'd like to think that, Wouldn't you?"
"A duck."
"What do you mean? An African or European swallow?"
So I got an idea for a character that seems a lot of fun but I'm really good in thinking of fun idea's that turn out to be horrible (because I misread something). So I thought. Lets share the idea and see if I misread something and if folks have advice for me.
So the base is Echo knight + Warrior of the Elemental monk + Grappler feat
The idea is that I can start grappling people from a range of 15 through both myself and the Echo. I've already seem some discussions if grappling from 15 range with Warrior of the Elemental monk should work and from what I've gathered it does. This should also work with my echo, right? That should probably open up a lot of interesting tactics and it would allow me to defend my squishy allies from two positions at once with a lot of range to do so.
Does anyone think I'm missing something and does anyone have maybe more fun idea's to play with?
I believe that would work. As for fun ideas, if you agree that true strike works with agonizing blast, I have a build of paladin 1, warlock 2, valor bard 6, devotion paladin 3, celestial warlock 6, champion fighter 4 paladin 4. This would allow casting true strike and adding cha. mod. 4 times on hit, and then attacking again from valor bard extra attack. If either is a crit. from 19 or 20, you can cast divine smite and use eldritch smite. Also, divine favor and hex increase your damage, weapon mastery can be used, pact of the blade can be taken, and magic initiate can be taken for the origin feat to get a familiar.
edit: I don't think it works
Extended signature
Pick up the Unarmed Fighting Style so you can do a free 1d4 damage every round to those you are grappling. Nothing says you and your echo cannot grapple the same target.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Nothing says that because that's nonsensical. The echo doesn't have hands to grapple,
and that is a requirement for grappling.
Upon reviewing, I realize that you also can't grapple with the echo at all. (unless the target is within 5 feet of you anyways)
Extended signature
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
How does that refute my points? This allows you to initiate a grapple from the echo's space, but it then immediately ends if you are not within 5 feet of the target.
Extended signature
I think this is an example of using the ‘24 rules on grappling and a ‘14 subclass (which honestly has been a big pain in the ass all along) having a strange interaction. It might work, but I’d definitely run this by the DM.
The PC has 15 feet of reach, 20 if they're a Bugbear. The echo can only be summoned 15 feet away. I'm sure it can be managed.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
That requires many favourable DM rulings, I personally do not rule that Warrior of the Elements can maintain a grapple at 15 fit, nor would I rule that an echo can maintain a grapple. Sure both can initiate such a grapple, but at the end of your turn the grapple would end immediately unless the target of the grapple is within 5ft of you because they would otherwise be outside of your reach and thus the grapple breaks.Maintaining a grapple requires that the grapplee remain within the unarmed strike reach of the grappler at all times even when the grappler is not "making an attack".
However, the "reach extending-ness" of various features is often left unclear thus open to alternative interpretations. So your best bet is to talk to your DM about whether or not they would allow it. Grappling with reach is in general border-lien game breakingly OP which is why I personally don't allow it at my table unless the rules are completely unambiguous that it works.
Putting on my DM hat: I'd say yes to the monk having a reach of 15 feet when it comes to maintaining a grapple, due to the flavor of the subclass and the fact that Elemental Attunement lasts for 10 minutes. (The monk can always try to drag the enemy 10 feet closer on a hit if the DM says no to this, by the way.)
I would say no to the echo being able to do it, though. That
kiFocus Point you spent only gives you Elemental Attunement, and your echo is very specifically not you.Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I agree on the ranged monk grappling. I don't think it's even particularly unclear.
Grappling through the echo is, ultimately, going to be a GM call. The ability lets you make your attacks through the echo, so you can definitely make a 15-foot unarmed attack from that point.
Whether you can hold the grapple (any grapple) from the echo is undefined. It requires an interpretation of whether "the grappler" is the PC, or the entity from which the grappling attack originated, and under the rules where echo knight was written, grappling wasn't making an attack, so they didn't clarify the point. (And they might not have thought of it anyway.)
The interaction between Echo Knight and grappling isn't clear. As people say, a DM is needed to rule on it.
Just to add a related thread about Monk Warrior of the Elements and grappling: Ranged Grapple (Monk Warrior of the Elements)
Given the wording on that echo knight ability
You could maaaaybe make a case that the monk themselves can maintain the grapple after the original attack comes from the echo's space, provided the target is within range of the monk. The monk is still making the attack, after all -- it's just coming from somewhere else on the map
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
My bad, you can grapple from your echo's position if the target is within your range anyways. I guess this helps with cover. This still doesn't let the echo maintain the grapple themselves.
Extended signature
That would be my ruling as well: The echo's position can be used to make the grapple. You lose the grapple immediately if you're not within 15 feet of the target personally (with a clear line of effect).
The 15 ft reach should work though, it very clearly extends your reach for the Unarmed Strike and Grapple is part of Unarmed Strike. This doesn't seem to be an accident, given that the new rule and subclass came out at the same time.
You can make the case for a lot of things. It's ultimately not explicitly defined, because. the echo knight wasn't written for grappling, and the grapple rules weren't written for attacks that originate from a point that is not the character.
As I said, it's a GM call.
That said, I'm going to take a stronger position than I did yesterday:
You should let it work.
It's a matter of intent. The intent of echo knight is that you can attack from the echo. Grapple is an attack. Part of grapple is that you can hold it. "You can make the grapple but you can't hold it" really means "you can't make the grapple".
Let people grapple things. It's not going to break the game.
The one time I've toyed with an echo knight build, it was on a character who was haunted by/bonded to the ghost of her twin sister, so I was looking at different combinations of astral arms monk plus levels of echo knight and/or undead warlock. As the whole point of the build would be that the ghost/echo could physically interact with things (the Telekinesis feat would probably creep in there along the way, for instance), then yeah, letting it grapple even from a distance would make sense
We're very much getting into Rule of Cool territory there though
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I really disagree with this. By the 2014 rules, a grapple ends if an effect moves the target out of your reach. Therefore, since you can only attack from the echo "When you take the Attack action on your turn...", you can't reach the target otherwise. You only have that option when you are taking the attack action, not at any other time.
Extended signature
We're talking 24 rules, but it doesn't change anything here
14:
24:
That discussion was had in a different context in the above-linked element monk grappling thread.
Yes, you can only reach the target when you make an attack through the echo. There are already situations where a single character can have multiple reaches. What ought to be relevant is the range of the grapple. The target was in reach of the grapple at the time you made it. No effect that allowed this has ended. There's a very good case to be made that it's still in range of the grapple. The fact that it may not be in range of some other attack you could make under other circumstances is not relevant.
Frankly, the more I dig in in order to argue this, the sounder I think it is. It's still not text, but it's not way out in left field either.
Also, having gone back to look at the 14 grapple rules, this was already a live question with the echo knight even before the rule update, since grappling was still part of the attack action back then, and the folks who wrote the echo knight just failed to think about it either way. (Or thought it was 'obvious'.)
"It's a matter of intent." How does that make sense referring to the 2024 rules?
Also, your echo doesn't increase your reach: it lets you make the attack as if you were in the position. Afterwards, it is no longer as if you are there and you are (probably) now to far away.
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