Yeah, I concur it's RAW, but it's also odd. For example, as a Monk Warrior of the Elements, you could maintain your grapple even when the grappled target teleports within 15 feet of you.
It's definitely odd, unless when Teleportation makes you disappear and reappear elsewhere instantly, you were no longer in the grapple’s range.
The more I look at this spell the more I think that it's pretty powerful for its level. It's a 4th level spell that does equivalent damage to spiritual weapon upcast to 4th level but with forced movement, imposing disadvantage on all attacks rolls, and setting speed to 0. It does all this an attack roll and not a save so it ignores legendary resistance unlike most control spells. Breaking free of the grapple takes an action and is a skill check not a save so it effectively ignores legendary resistance entirely and guarantees that the target either suffers the debuffs or wastes a turn trying to get free with no guarantee of success. As long as the target is not gargantuan this seems to be one of if not the most consistent control spells and as a bonus action.
Edit: If the grapple range is 30ft, which I feel is more consistent with the rules of grappling, it's even more ridiculous because the target can't easily escape with the most common teleportation spell.
Of course, the rule is an abstraction designed for the typical "I grab him with my hands" grapple, so it's going to get weirder the further you get from that. It also doesn't handle teleportation fully -- if I'm grappling you, and you misty step from right in front of me to right behind me, RAW, you're still grappled.
Yeah, I concur it's RAW, but it's also odd. For example, as a Monk Warrior of the Elements, you could maintain your grapple even when the grappled target teleports within 15 feet of you.
Elements monk is one where I'd entertain the possibility that the grapple would hold over a teleport. It's unusual in that you're not being held with a part of the body. On the other hand, the connection of elemental force is still being severed.
Elements monk is one where I'd entertain the possibility that the grapple would hold over a teleport. It's unusual in that you're not being held with a part of the body. On the other hand, the connection of elemental force is still being severed.
RAW teleportation doesn't automatically break a grapple. The grapple is ended only if the distance between the grappler and the target exceeds the range of the grapple. If someone is grappled by an elemental monk at the edge of their range and tries to misty step to the other side of the monk RAW they are still grappled because they're still in the range of the grapple.
The more I look at this spell the more I think that it's pretty powerful for its level. It's a 4th level spell that does equivalent damage to spiritual weapon upcast to 4th level but with forced movement, imposing disadvantage on all attacks rolls, and setting speed to 0. It does all this an attack roll and not a save so it ignores legendary resistance unlike most control spells. Breaking free of the grapple takes an action and is a skill check not a save so it effectively ignores legendary resistance entirely and guarantees that the target either suffers the debuffs or wastes a turn trying to get free with no guarantee of success. As long as the target is not gargantuan this seems to be one of if not the most consistent control spells and as a bonus action.
Edit: If the grapple range is 30ft, which I feel is more consistent with the rules of grappling, it's even more ridiculous because the target can't easily escape with the most common teleportation spell.
Higher level spells are generally more powerful than upcasted lower level spells. Also, while it does ignore legendary resistance, it goes against ac, which is generally worse than forcing a save. Additionally, a creature with legendary resistances can probably escape very easily, whether by the check, or through teleportation.
I believe that the text of "On a hit, the target... is pulled up to 30 feet toward the vine..." means to a space next to the vine and not the vine's space. If it is, then you can use misty step to escape.
Disappearing from grapple to me seems self explanatory...
I'm not arguing that is shouldn't break a grapple. I'm saying that RAW it doesn't unless you teleport outside the grapple's range. RAW can be silly and not make logical sense.
Disappearing from grapple to me seems self explanatory...
I'm not arguing that is shouldn't break a grapple. I'm saying that RAW it doesn't unless you teleport outside the grapple's range. RAW can be silly and not make logical sense.
When RAW creates extremely odd scenarios, maybe it's time to pray to the Faerûnian gods to add these cases to the rules.
Of course, the rule is an abstraction designed for the typical "I grab him with my hands" grapple, so it's going to get weirder the further you get from that. It also doesn't handle teleportation fully -- if I'm grappling you, and you misty step from right in front of me to right behind me, RAW, you're still grappled.
Yeah, I concur it's RAW, but it's also odd. For example, as a Monk Warrior of the Elements, you could maintain your grapple even when the grappled target teleports within 15 feet of you.
Elements monk is one where I'd entertain the possibility that the grapple would hold over a teleport. It's unusual in that you're not being held with a part of the body. On the other hand, the connection of elemental force is still being severed.
Higher level spells are generally more powerful than upcasted lower level spells. Also, while it does ignore legendary resistance, it goes against ac, which is generally worse than forcing a save. Additionally, a creature with legendary resistances can probably escape very easily, whether by the check, or through teleportation.
I believe that the text of "On a hit, the target... is pulled up to 30 feet toward the vine..." means to a space next to the vine and not the vine's space. If it is, then you can use misty step to escape.
I disagree with the idea that saves are better than attacks. Legendary resistance and Magic resistance are so prevalent from CR 7 and above that attacks are more likely to hit than saving throw abilities. Very few creatures have proficiency in athletics or acrobatics and while their ability modifiers may be high, they can't auto succeed with legendary resistance, don't benefit from saving throw bonuses, and they have to pass a DC 18-19 check without magic items. Trying to apply any control to high CR monsters is almost impossible with their high saves, legendary resistances and the magic resistance ability. This spell seems to me to be the best way around it other than weapon masteries.
Also, the majority of monsters from CR 7 to CR 20 can't teleport away without using an action or leaving the plane entirely. If misty step breaks the grapple, all the giants but the cloud giant would have to use their action to break free. They have proficiency in athletics but it's still a round where they're not attacking and will probably happen again next round as long as your party is close to them. Every adult dragon and smaller can't teleport out and aren't proficient in athletics or acrobatics.
Edit: What's to prevent you from pulling them to the space above the vine and falling into the space of the vine.
Elements monk is one where I'd entertain the possibility that the grapple would hold over a teleport. It's unusual in that you're not being held with a part of the body. On the other hand, the connection of elemental force is still being severed.
RAW teleportation doesn't automatically break a grapple. The grapple is ended only if the distance between the grappler and the target exceeds the range of the grapple. If someone is grappled by an elemental monk at the edge of their range and tries to misty step to the other side of the monk RAW they are still grappled because they're still in the range of the grapple.
Elements monk is one where I'd entertain the possibility that the grapple would hold over a teleport. It's unusual in that you're not being held with a part of the body. On the other hand, the connection of elemental force is still being severed.
RAW teleportation doesn't automatically break a grapple. The grapple is ended only if the distance between the grappler and the target exceeds the range of the grapple. If someone is grappled by an elemental monk at the edge of their range and tries to misty step to the other side of the monk RAW they are still grappled because they're still in the range of the grapple.
So, RAW, you need to get out of the 30 foot radius, but GMs should allow most teleports break most grapples.
Because, while RAW is important, advocating when the GM should ignore it is also relevant.
Why are you being confrontational? I agree that teleportation should break a grapple as I said up thread. I'm saying that it's not RAW which is a really weird oversight in the rules for a game with tons of magic and other abilities that let you teleport.
I'm not arguing that is shouldn't break a grapple. I'm saying that RAW it doesn't unless you teleport outside the grapple's range. RAW can be silly and not make logical sense.
Elements monk is one where I'd entertain the possibility that the grapple would hold over a teleport. It's unusual in that you're not being held with a part of the body. On the other hand, the connection of elemental force is still being severed.
RAW teleportation doesn't automatically break a grapple. The grapple is ended only if the distance between the grappler and the target exceeds the range of the grapple. If someone is grappled by an elemental monk at the edge of their range and tries to misty step to the other side of the monk RAW they are still grappled because they're still in the range of the grapple.
So, RAW, you need to get out of the 30 foot radius, but GMs should allow most teleports break most grapples.
Because, while RAW is important, advocating when the GM should ignore it is also relevant.
Why are you being confrontational? I agree that teleportation should break a grapple as I said up thread. I'm saying that it's not RAW which is a really weird oversight in the rules for a game with tons of magic and other abilities that let you teleport.
I'm not arguing that is shouldn't break a grapple. I'm saying that RAW it doesn't unless you teleport outside the grapple's range. RAW can be silly and not make logical sense.
I'd argue this line in teleportation means the grapple is broken "If you’re touching another creature when you teleport, that creature doesn’t teleport with you unless the teleportation effect says otherwise." It is not express but it is in effect saying they are no longer holding you, so they are no longer grappling you. It isn't a creature, but i think the logic would carry over. And yes you are right it seems to be an obvious oversight, though outside this one spell I can't think of any other examples where misty step would not get you out of range and there aren't many teleports less than 30 feet. Clear statements here and there would be welcome.
As an aside you could gimmick it if you teleport to a location that has a creature or object in it you can choose a neighboring square to teleport into, so as long as an object or person occupies a square at 30 feet you could technically teleport 35 feet instead. Well technically it depends on how you define nearest, nearest to location you teleported to so any of the surrounding squares or nearest to where you were.
Higher level spells are generally more powerful than upcasted lower level spells. Also, while it does ignore legendary resistance, it goes against ac, which is generally worse than forcing a save. Additionally, a creature with legendary resistances can probably escape very easily, whether by the check, or through teleportation.
To further the idea that grasping vine is powerful for a 4th level spell we can compare it to the 5th level Bigby's hand.
Bigby's hand:
Action to cast
Has an AC and Hit points so it can be attacked and destroyed
You can either move the target, grapple the target on a save(and deal guaranteed 4d6 + mod on later turns), or attack a target for 5d8
Grasping Vine:
Bonus action to cast and attack on later rounds.
Forced movement, grapple, and 4d8 all in one repeatable attack roll
Does less damage than the attack option of Bigby's hand but equivalent damage to the automatic damage from it's grapple.
Grasping Vine does way better in action economy than Bigby's hand not just because your action is always free but because you don't need more than 1 turn to damage, move your target, and impose the grappled condition. It would take Bigby's hand 2 turns to grapple and move or grapple and damage. Not to mention the grapple is tied to a save running into legendary resistance and magic resistance. Needing 2-3 turns to do the effects that you want while also requiring an extra action doesn't compare well to grasping vine accomplishing the same effects on 1 turn with just a bonus action while avoiding legendary and magic resistance.
Ya Bigby's hand can move, soak up damage, has a defensive option that helps with gargantuan creatures, and it's upcasts deal more damage where grasping vine does not. I'd rather use a 4th level spell to soft lock a pit fiend, adult dragon, or empyrean in 1 turn than a 5th or higher level Bigby's hand and just do the damage because I can't get past their resistances to soft lock them.
the grappler is not a creature, it doesn't have any range, the range for the attack is the caster's spell attack, not the vine itself. so a misty step teleports you out, this doesn't follow any rules for ''pushing out of the grapplers range'', since you're not pushing anyone, your disappearing and appearing in a different place, also misty step doesn't teleport additional creatures or anything else the caster is not carrying or holding.
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It's definitely odd, unless when Teleportation makes you disappear and reappear elsewhere instantly, you were no longer in the grapple’s range.
The more I look at this spell the more I think that it's pretty powerful for its level. It's a 4th level spell that does equivalent damage to spiritual weapon upcast to 4th level but with forced movement, imposing disadvantage on all attacks rolls, and setting speed to 0. It does all this an attack roll and not a save so it ignores legendary resistance unlike most control spells. Breaking free of the grapple takes an action and is a skill check not a save so it effectively ignores legendary resistance entirely and guarantees that the target either suffers the debuffs or wastes a turn trying to get free with no guarantee of success. As long as the target is not gargantuan this seems to be one of if not the most consistent control spells and as a bonus action.
Edit: If the grapple range is 30ft, which I feel is more consistent with the rules of grappling, it's even more ridiculous because the target can't easily escape with the most common teleportation spell.
Elements monk is one where I'd entertain the possibility that the grapple would hold over a teleport. It's unusual in that you're not being held with a part of the body. On the other hand, the connection of elemental force is still being severed.
RAW teleportation doesn't automatically break a grapple. The grapple is ended only if the distance between the grappler and the target exceeds the range of the grapple. If someone is grappled by an elemental monk at the edge of their range and tries to misty step to the other side of the monk RAW they are still grappled because they're still in the range of the grapple.
Disappearing from grapple to me seems self explanatory...
Higher level spells are generally more powerful than upcasted lower level spells. Also, while it does ignore legendary resistance, it goes against ac, which is generally worse than forcing a save. Additionally, a creature with legendary resistances can probably escape very easily, whether by the check, or through teleportation.
I believe that the text of "On a hit, the target... is pulled up to 30 feet toward the vine..." means to a space next to the vine and not the vine's space. If it is, then you can use misty step to escape.
I'm not arguing that is shouldn't break a grapple. I'm saying that RAW it doesn't unless you teleport outside the grapple's range. RAW can be silly and not make logical sense.
When RAW creates extremely odd scenarios, maybe it's time to pray to the Faerûnian gods to add these cases to the rules.
You have a good point here, mate! :)
I disagree with the idea that saves are better than attacks. Legendary resistance and Magic resistance are so prevalent from CR 7 and above that attacks are more likely to hit than saving throw abilities. Very few creatures have proficiency in athletics or acrobatics and while their ability modifiers may be high, they can't auto succeed with legendary resistance, don't benefit from saving throw bonuses, and they have to pass a DC 18-19 check without magic items. Trying to apply any control to high CR monsters is almost impossible with their high saves, legendary resistances and the magic resistance ability. This spell seems to me to be the best way around it other than weapon masteries.
Also, the majority of monsters from CR 7 to CR 20 can't teleport away without using an action or leaving the plane entirely. If misty step breaks the grapple, all the giants but the cloud giant would have to use their action to break free. They have proficiency in athletics but it's still a round where they're not attacking and will probably happen again next round as long as your party is close to them. Every adult dragon and smaller can't teleport out and aren't proficient in athletics or acrobatics.
Edit: What's to prevent you from pulling them to the space above the vine and falling into the space of the vine.
As I said upthread:
Because, while RAW is important, advocating when the GM should ignore it is also relevant.
Why are you being confrontational? I agree that teleportation should break a grapple as I said up thread. I'm saying that it's not RAW which is a really weird oversight in the rules for a game with tons of magic and other abilities that let you teleport.
I'd argue this line in teleportation means the grapple is broken "If you’re touching another creature when you teleport, that creature doesn’t teleport with you unless the teleportation effect says otherwise." It is not express but it is in effect saying they are no longer holding you, so they are no longer grappling you. It isn't a creature, but i think the logic would carry over. And yes you are right it seems to be an obvious oversight, though outside this one spell I can't think of any other examples where misty step would not get you out of range and there aren't many teleports less than 30 feet. Clear statements here and there would be welcome.
As an aside you could gimmick it if you teleport to a location that has a creature or object in it you can choose a neighboring square to teleport into, so as long as an object or person occupies a square at 30 feet you could technically teleport 35 feet instead. Well technically it depends on how you define nearest, nearest to location you teleported to so any of the surrounding squares or nearest to where you were.
To further the idea that grasping vine is powerful for a 4th level spell we can compare it to the 5th level Bigby's hand.
Bigby's hand:
Action to cast
Has an AC and Hit points so it can be attacked and destroyed
You can either move the target, grapple the target on a save(and deal guaranteed 4d6 + mod on later turns), or attack a target for 5d8
Grasping Vine:
Bonus action to cast and attack on later rounds.
Forced movement, grapple, and 4d8 all in one repeatable attack roll
Does less damage than the attack option of Bigby's hand but equivalent damage to the automatic damage from it's grapple.
Grasping Vine does way better in action economy than Bigby's hand not just because your action is always free but because you don't need more than 1 turn to damage, move your target, and impose the grappled condition. It would take Bigby's hand 2 turns to grapple and move or grapple and damage. Not to mention the grapple is tied to a save running into legendary resistance and magic resistance. Needing 2-3 turns to do the effects that you want while also requiring an extra action doesn't compare well to grasping vine accomplishing the same effects on 1 turn with just a bonus action while avoiding legendary and magic resistance.
Ya Bigby's hand can move, soak up damage, has a defensive option that helps with gargantuan creatures, and it's upcasts deal more damage where grasping vine does not. I'd rather use a 4th level spell to soft lock a pit fiend, adult dragon, or empyrean in 1 turn than a 5th or higher level Bigby's hand and just do the damage because I can't get past their resistances to soft lock them.
the grappler is not a creature, it doesn't have any range, the range for the attack is the caster's spell attack, not the vine itself. so a misty step teleports you out, this doesn't follow any rules for ''pushing out of the grapplers range'', since you're not pushing anyone, your disappearing and appearing in a different place, also misty step doesn't teleport additional creatures or anything else the caster is not carrying or holding.