In those situations, a DM could give Advantage on the Dexterity (Stealth) check and Disadvantage on the Wisdom (Perception) check or Passive Perception (e.g. in the crowded tavern example).
My 6 rooms over comment, got me thinking. So how do the the always know the location of invisible people handle the next room. The people the room over are just chilling at a table, they aren't carousing, just relaxing. The party walks towards it lets say they are hiding, do you say there are 6 people in the room before they open it, are you more detailed, less detailed, do they have to make a perception test at all, the old listen at doors check. Is full cover somehow different to you than the invisible spell and 60 feet of distance, if so, why. And I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm curious, where are your limits if any. I can see no real limits(ignoring the absurd like knowing the location of everyone in existence etc)being valid as its a easy, hard and fast rule where you aren't constantly making judgement calls, its fair.
For me that is why I add the caveat unless it seems silly. You are in a small room, a invisible person is walking behind you with no attempt at hiding, you hear them and know where they are. Short range combat, generally assume the same. But tons of distractions like crowds, large distances, barriers that stop sound yeah its not automatic anymore you have to make a check. DC based on how I make the call on most DCs, would it be easy, hard, near impossible etc.
Yep, similar interpretation. In close combat all creatures are aware of the location of all other nearby creatures, regardless of visibility.
I'd rule that if an invisible creature is more than 30' from the nearest opponent then their exact location is not known without some active perception search by an opponent. Still, an enemy might guess "the rogue is probably hiding in that bush" and target them for attack.
If we are dealing with monsters in another room then I would fall back on the travelling speed rules. If the party is declared to be moving fast then they will by default be making enough noise and the next room monsters would probably be aware of their approach. Moving normal pace I would call for a stealth check at disadvantage at the moment of opening the door to determine if the monsters were at all warned of their approach. And moving at slow pace implies an intent to be quiet, so would allow a stealth check without disadvantage to take the next room monsters by surprise (or even grant advantage if special hiding/ sneaking measures are taken).
The travel pace would generally be having effects on the time it takes the party to search and clear each room, and also the way the whole dungeon is able to react to the party's presence.
If an invisible creature is stationary in a room when enemy creatures enter the room, then my default ruling would be that they are able to launch a surprise attack on the new arrivals, unless a very high-level perception check is made - similar to how a mimic ambush might work.
It seems that the new rules are not using hide/stealth checks to specifically decide when a creature's location is unknown. It falls to the DM to rule case by case.
Creatures in different rooms are usually unlocated, unseen and unheard, unless you're close enought to hear them because it's particularly noisy or the walls are thin for example. In most case, i would generally not tell players the muffled creature's location and remain vague on what is perceived behind closed doors, if anything.
If any creature in there was specifically trying to Hide their location and remain stealthy, i would use such rules wether they're Invisible or not.
Creatures in different rooms are usually unlocated, unseen and unheard, unless you're close enought to hear them because it's particularly noisy or the walls are thin for example. In most case, i would generally not tell players the muffled creature's location and remain vague on what is perceived behind closed doors, if anything.
If any creature in there was specifically trying to Hide their location and remain stealthy, i would use such rules wether they're Invisible or not.
What do you think your threshold would be for a invisible person not behind a wall be to get a similar ruling. They are 30, 60, 120, 600 feet away on a open field, they are floating above a bustling town square, the are leaning against a wall in a unused corner of a crowded bar etc.
I think RegentCorrean has the right of it in that the intent is that your locations isn't always known without hide, and its a case by case decision made by the DM. And its good to hear other DMs lines of reasoning in order to hopefully be able to put together a fairer system in my own games. I kind of rolled with 2014s you always know the location system in the past as it was easy, even if I thought it frequently had silly results. But I've been for the last year or two trying to use a more nuanced system. I'm sure I've made some bad calls along with some good ones. Extra perspectives helps.
In those situations, a DM could give Advantage on the Dexterity (Stealth) check and Disadvantage on the Wisdom (Perception) check or Passive Perception (e.g. in the crowded tavern example).
Some aspect of the environment makes success less likely.
An element of the plan or description of an action makes success less likely.
The point of the examples is they aren't hiding. But having met up with many friends in crowded bars, I generally don't instantly spot them when I walk in the door unless they are flagging me down, and even then you can sometimes miss them for a couple seconds. And given friends have similar experiences I don't think I am uniquely unperceptive in that regard. So as a DM what kind of DC would you give to spot someone who is not hiding from you, so no stealth check was ever made. But the circumstances makes it difficult to instantly spot them.
And that is kind of the mindset I think people should have with the invisible spell. It is kind of an extreme example but in a similar thread I said if a dude is invisible and 600 feet away, taking a bead on a party member with their long bow, I'm not going to make him make a stealth check to be hidden, hes hidden. The Dc to spot them would likely be something like 25 and the players might have disadvantage. That specific circumstance has not come up yet in my games, but spotting a invisible person at 200 yards would seem to be incredibly difficult to me.
Creatures in different rooms are usually unlocated, unseen and unheard, unless you're close enought to hear them because it's particularly noisy or the walls are thin for example. In most case, i would generally not tell players the muffled creature's location and remain vague on what is perceived behind closed doors, if anything.
If any creature in there was specifically trying to Hide their location and remain stealthy, i would use such rules wether they're Invisible or not.
What do you think your threshold would be for a invisible person not behind a wall be to get a similar ruling. They are 30, 60, 120, 600 feet away on a open field, they are floating above a bustling town square, the are leaning against a wall in a unused corner of a crowded bar etc.
The Dungeon Master Guides offer guidelines for Perception and Encounters distance, with the notion that creatures not being stealthy are automatically noticed.
As DM, i personally set encounters and determine what is on/off screen, everything else is outside the scope, including things outside encounter distance, in rooms beyond etc... unless i determine it's perceiveable somehow, like for example loud noise, strong smell etc. A DM could definitly say a bustling townsquare offer ample visual and audible distractions to provide cirtumstances granting Advantage or Disadvantage.
Perception and Encounters: If the characters encounter another group of creatures and neither side is being stealthy, the two groups automatically notice each other once they are within sight or hearing range of one another. The Audible Distance table can help you determine the hearing range, and the following sections address visibility. If one group tries to hide from the other, use the rules in the Player's Handbook.
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In those situations, a DM could give Advantage on the Dexterity (Stealth) check and Disadvantage on the Wisdom (Perception) check or Passive Perception (e.g. in the crowded tavern example).
Yep, similar interpretation. In close combat all creatures are aware of the location of all other nearby creatures, regardless of visibility.
I'd rule that if an invisible creature is more than 30' from the nearest opponent then their exact location is not known without some active perception search by an opponent. Still, an enemy might guess "the rogue is probably hiding in that bush" and target them for attack.
If we are dealing with monsters in another room then I would fall back on the travelling speed rules. If the party is declared to be moving fast then they will by default be making enough noise and the next room monsters would probably be aware of their approach. Moving normal pace I would call for a stealth check at disadvantage at the moment of opening the door to determine if the monsters were at all warned of their approach. And moving at slow pace implies an intent to be quiet, so would allow a stealth check without disadvantage to take the next room monsters by surprise (or even grant advantage if special hiding/ sneaking measures are taken).
The travel pace would generally be having effects on the time it takes the party to search and clear each room, and also the way the whole dungeon is able to react to the party's presence.
If an invisible creature is stationary in a room when enemy creatures enter the room, then my default ruling would be that they are able to launch a surprise attack on the new arrivals, unless a very high-level perception check is made - similar to how a mimic ambush might work.
It seems that the new rules are not using hide/stealth checks to specifically decide when a creature's location is unknown. It falls to the DM to rule case by case.
Creatures in different rooms are usually unlocated, unseen and unheard, unless you're close enought to hear them because it's particularly noisy or the walls are thin for example. In most case, i would generally not tell players the muffled creature's location and remain vague on what is perceived behind closed doors, if anything.
If any creature in there was specifically trying to Hide their location and remain stealthy, i would use such rules wether they're Invisible or not.
What do you think your threshold would be for a invisible person not behind a wall be to get a similar ruling. They are 30, 60, 120, 600 feet away on a open field, they are floating above a bustling town square, the are leaning against a wall in a unused corner of a crowded bar etc.
I think RegentCorrean has the right of it in that the intent is that your locations isn't always known without hide, and its a case by case decision made by the DM. And its good to hear other DMs lines of reasoning in order to hopefully be able to put together a fairer system in my own games. I kind of rolled with 2014s you always know the location system in the past as it was easy, even if I thought it frequently had silly results. But I've been for the last year or two trying to use a more nuanced system. I'm sure I've made some bad calls along with some good ones. Extra perspectives helps.
The point of the examples is they aren't hiding. But having met up with many friends in crowded bars, I generally don't instantly spot them when I walk in the door unless they are flagging me down, and even then you can sometimes miss them for a couple seconds. And given friends have similar experiences I don't think I am uniquely unperceptive in that regard. So as a DM what kind of DC would you give to spot someone who is not hiding from you, so no stealth check was ever made. But the circumstances makes it difficult to instantly spot them.
And that is kind of the mindset I think people should have with the invisible spell. It is kind of an extreme example but in a similar thread I said if a dude is invisible and 600 feet away, taking a bead on a party member with their long bow, I'm not going to make him make a stealth check to be hidden, hes hidden. The Dc to spot them would likely be something like 25 and the players might have disadvantage. That specific circumstance has not come up yet in my games, but spotting a invisible person at 200 yards would seem to be incredibly difficult to me.
In the cores rules the guidelines to find a creature who Hide is to use the check’s total as DC.
Beside that is up to DM what it is, and if circumstances can apply Advantage or Disadvantage.
The Dungeon Master Guides offer guidelines for Perception and Encounters distance, with the notion that creatures not being stealthy are automatically noticed.
As DM, i personally set encounters and determine what is on/off screen, everything else is outside the scope, including things outside encounter distance, in rooms beyond etc... unless i determine it's perceiveable somehow, like for example loud noise, strong smell etc. A DM could definitly say a bustling townsquare offer ample visual and audible distractions to provide cirtumstances granting Advantage or Disadvantage.