So I can't sleep and still a bit confused on this:
Player casts invisibility on themselves. They need to take the hide action first before someone can't find them.
The stealth check is a straight roll because the invisible condition doesn't give you advantage on stealth checks.
What about the person trying to see you? Do they get disadvantage on perception checks?
If you're invisible then are you heavily obscured? That just means they can't see you via sight- nothing about perception checks.
Assuming that person is trying to find you by listening or something, then it's just a straight perception roll.
So if you go invisible, then you first must hide before you can't be found, and then it doesn't affect your stealth roll or their perception checks? Unless the DM rules circumstances call for it
Player casts invisibility on themselves. They need to take the hide action first before someone can't find them.
The stealth check is a straight roll because the invisible condition doesn't give you advantage on stealth checks.
RAW, you're right.
What about the person trying to see you? Do they get disadvantage on perception checks?
RAW, no.
If you're invisible then are you heavily obscured? That just means they can't see you via sight- nothing about perception checks.
There's not relation between the Invisible condition and Heavily Obscured, but it's related to the Hide action:
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Assuming that person is trying to find you by listening or something, then it's just a straight perception roll.
So if you go invisible, then you first must hide before you can't be found, and then it doesn't affect your stealth roll or their perception checks? Unless the DM rules circumstances call for it
Player casts invisibility on themselves. They need to take the hide action first before someone can't find them.
This is not necessarily true. Some things don't call for a roll because they are impossible
If you are invisible, you "aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you". That would include the act of being seen
If you're invisible and standing in the corner of the room, and someone walks in and glances around the room, there's no Stealth or Perception roll required
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
Beyond that's it appears to be up to the DM on how to handle players who may know an enemy is there, but their characters don't.
I don't understand why you would need to Hide if you're already Invisible.
I understood that the condition was gained through the spell, not the Hide action.
So, I guess in this case, Hide could be more about avoiding being heard (?) and finally undetected (?)
Unfortunately, the 2024 rules appear to neglect this aspect of hiding altogether. Some of the OPs comments are correct for the 2014 rules but for 2024 - DMs have to house rule all of it.
For example: What does the Hide action do?
"Hide [Action]
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
If you are heavily obscured or behind cover you can make a Hide check to receive the Invisible condition.
That's all hiding does. If you cast the Invisible spell on yourself, you receive the Invisible condition and it doesn't do any more than taking the Hide action.
In the 2014 rules there were additional useful pieces of information:
"If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
This rule was in the section on unseen attackers and targets in the combat rules and was changed in the 2024 rules to the following:
"If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
The Hide action (in 2024) does not make a character Hidden. Hidden appears to be completely undefined in the 2024 rules.
In addition, the 2014 rules contained the following description in the Invisible condition:
"An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves."
and in the section on hiding in the 2014 skills chapter.
An invisible creature was considered heavily obscured for the purposes of hiding and could always try to hide. This, of course, makes no sense when the 2024 rules for the Hide action only grant the Invisible condition. (It also made no sense in circumstances where the Invisible creature could be seen (eg See Invisible spell) but that wasn't stated clearly. Similar to the 2024 rules lacking a statement that being able to see in Darkness removes the Heavily Obscured effect from the area - or that the existence of Darkness itself is dependent on the senses of the creature involved. Darkness only exists if a creature can't see in that area - similar to how Invisibility should only exist if the creature can't be seen .. but the Stealth/Hiding/Invisible rules in both 2014 and 2024 aren't well written).
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So in the 2024 rules there seems to be no way for a creature to become "Hidden" and Hidden itself is not defined. In 2014, Hidden was interpreted to mean that the location of a creature became unknown - the only way this can occur in the 2024 rules is due to DM decision. The rules appear to contain no mechanism for it.
So in the 2024 rules there seems to be no way for a creature to become "Hidden" and Hidden itself is not defined. In 2014, Hidden was interpreted to mean that the location of a creature became unknown - the only way this can occur in the 2024 rules is due to DM decision. The rules appear to contain no mechanism for it.
RAW seems to imply (now there's a dangerous phrase) that you need to attempt to find a creature who has taken the hide action successfully. Logically, if finding a creature requires an attempt, then the lack of the attempt should mean the lack of knowing where that creature is. But you're correct to point out the problem with this not being explicit.
So I can't sleep and still a bit confused on this:
Player casts invisibility on themselves. They need to take the hide action first before someone can't find them.
The stealth check is a straight roll because the invisible condition doesn't give you advantage on stealth checks.
The Hide grants the Invisible; which is the same effect as casting Invisibility or Greater Invisibility on yourself. There's no benefit to taking that action after already having the condition.
If you're invisible then are you heavily obscured? That just means they can't see you via sight- nothing about perception checks.
Whether an area is Heavily Obscured is circumstantial. Typical examples would be inside a cave or the difference between day and night, but is can also be due to an environmental effect (e.g. Heavy Precipitation, Strong Wind) or a spell (e.g. Darkness, Fog Cloud). Again, a creature is only Heavily Obscured if a rule says they are. A creature with the Invisible condition is not Heavily Obscured by default. Something else must say they are.
And while an Invisible creature cannot be targeted by any effect which requires them to be seen, they can still be targeted by attacks. By default, other creatures still know the Invisible creature's general location.
Assuming that person is trying to find you by listening or something, then it's just a straight perception roll.
Yes and no. The Hide action gives a method for setting a DC for a Wisdom ([skills]Perception[/skills]) roll. Any other method must set its own DC, and by default the Invisibility and Greater Invisibility spells don't do that.
Depending on the DM, they might say no DC means they either can't be found with a roll or don't need to be found with a roll. And, yes, there is a difference.
So if you go invisible, then you first must hide before you can't be found, and then it doesn't affect your stealth roll or their perception checks? Unless the DM rules circumstances call for it
No and yes.
A creature can always be found regardless of how it acquired the Invisible condition. It might require a Wisdom (Perception) roll or a spell, like Faerie Fire or See Invisibility, but they're never undetectable. Even a high enough passive Perception score might be enough to render a Hide action moot.
But you are correct that simply being Invisible doesn't grant Advantage with a Dexterity (Stealth) roll.
Instead of relying on this hard-and-fast rule from 2014 which might not have made sense in certain situations, it appears that the intent is that we should now instead rely on this more open-ended rule:
The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.
It's not great, but that seems to be a deliberate design change.
So in the 2024 rules there seems to be no way for a creature to become "Hidden" and Hidden itself is not defined. In 2014, Hidden was interpreted to mean that the location of a creature became unknown - the only way this can occur in the 2024 rules is due to DM decision. The rules appear to contain no mechanism for it.
To me, it looks like what they were going for here was to use the word "concealed" as a synonym for "hidden" in this context -- meaning, essentially, unseen and unheard and location unknown. Unfortunately, and problematically, the word "concealed" is used differently within the Invisible condition itself to simply mean "unseen" in that context. So, we have a word that's used in two different ways that is not tightly defined anywhere within the game -- the word "concealed" is not a Glossary entry, for example.
I would argue that the terms "unseen" and "hidden" are both decently well-defined within the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section of the general rules. As you've already pointed out, we still do have this one line from 2024:
If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
This pretty well implies that by definition when you are hidden your location is unknown. It should be more explicitly defined somewhere, but it's not nothing.
Now, the biggest logical leap that needs to be made which should have been more explicitly defined is that when you take the Hide action to "try to conceal yourself", then a successful Hide action results in successfully concealing yourself such that you are now "concealed" in addition to acquiring the Invisible condition, AND (here is the logical leap) that a successful Hide action causes you to become "hidden" by virtue of the fact that you have become "concealed" which means exactly the same thing in this context. Yes, it's not explicit, but all of this is definitely implied.
As an aside, when I google the definition of the word "conceal", I get the following results:
-- Keep from sight; Hide.
-- Keep (something) secret; prevent from being known or noticed.
-- Keep from being observed or discovered; Hide.
-- Keep secret; prevent or avoid disclosing or divulging.
-- Hide something from view or from public knowledge; try to keep something secret.
So, we can see that sometimes the word is used to mean something similar to "unseen" and sometimes the word is used to mean something more like "hidden" and "to make something unknown" which is a lot more like how "hidden" was defined in 2014: "unseen and unheard and location unknown".
For completeness, one other place that the word "conceal" comes up is in the Glossary entry for the Search action, which says that:
When you take the Search action, you make a Wisdom check to discern something that isn’t obvious. The Search table suggests which skills are applicable when you take this action, depending on what you’re trying to detect.
and the table contains the entry:
Perception (when trying to detect): Concealed creature or object.
This aligns well with the text within the Hide action.
So again, the question is whether or not we can consider a "concealed" creature to be a "hidden" creature for the purposes of the various rules that are scattered around, some of which refer to the creature as "concealed" and some of which refer to the creature as "hidden". These terms are not explicitly linked within the Hide action, but in context they do mean the same thing via the common English language definitions.
Further food for thought -- here are the few places in the rules where the terms "hide", "hidden" (--) or "conceal / concealed" (**) pop up in the rules in the context of hidden creatures:
General Rules -- Playing the Game:
-- Stealth / Dexterity / Escape notice by moving quietly and hiding behind things.
-- Hide Action / Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check.
-- Hiding: Adventurers and monsters often hide, whether to spy on one another, sneak past a guardian, or set an ambush. The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, you take the Hide action.
-- Marching Order: A marching order makes it easier to determine which characters are affected by traps, which ones can spot hidden enemies, and which ones are the closest to those enemies if a fight breaks out.
-- Surprise: if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
-- Unseen Attackers and Targets: If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
General Rules -- Character Classes:
-- Rangers learn to track their quarry as a predator does, moving stealthily through the wilds and hiding themselves in brush and rubble.
-- Nature's Veil: You invoke spirits of nature to magically hide yourself. As a Bonus Action, you can give yourself the Invisible condition until the end of your next turn.
-- Cunning Action: On your turn, you can take one of the following actions as a Bonus Action: Dash, Disengage, or Hide.
-- Supreme Sneak: If you have the Hide action’s Invisible condition, this attack doesn’t end that condition on you if you end the turn behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover.
General Rules -- Character Origins:
-- Naturally Stealthy: You can take the Hide action even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you.
** Mirage Arcane: Similarly, you can alter the appearance of structures or add them where none are present. The spell doesn’t disguise, conceal, or add creatures.
** Pass Without Trace: You radiate a concealing aura in a 30-foot Emanation for the duration. While in the aura, you and each creature you choose have a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and leave no tracks.
DMG, The Basics:
-- Overly cautious players can slow down the game by checking every flagstone, door, and wall in a dungeon for traps and hidden dangers.
Rules Glossary:
** / -- Hide Action: With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself.
** Invisible Condition: Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
** Search action: (Use) Perception (when trying to detect) / Concealed creature or object
Anyways, hopefully some of that was helpful. I agree that the wording for both the Hide action and the Invisible condition needs to be cleaned up a bit, but we can sort of get there from the text if we look at all of the text that is sprinkled throughout the game related to these concepts.
I think the way I'm going to play it for now is that if you're invisible, you cannot be seen, but your location is generally known. If you take the hide action successfully, you are invisible, and your location becomes unknown. If someone wants to find you, they take the search action and make a Wisdom (Perception) check with a DC of your Dexterity (Stealth) ability skill check. That seems to me to be consistent with RAW, but it sure would be nice if they made that explicit.
I think the way I'm going to play it for now is that if you're invisible, you cannot be seen, but your location is generally known. If you take the hide action successfully, you are invisible, and your location becomes unknown. If someone wants to find you, they take the search action and make a Wisdom (Perception) check with a DC of your Dexterity (Stealth) ability skill check. That seems to me to be consistent with RAW, but it sure would be nice if they made that explicit.
Pretty similar to how I'm ruling it.
For me, there's a difference in how you gain the condition: whether through the Hide action or classic spells. So, depending on that, the way you're detected is slightly different
And yeah, I know: the rules could be clearer, and some guidance on how to apply them would be nice.
I think the way I'm going to play it for now is that if you're invisible, you cannot be seen, but your location is generally known. If you take the hide action successfully, you are invisible, and your location becomes unknown. If someone wants to find you, they take the search action and make a Wisdom (Perception) check with a DC of your Dexterity (Stealth) ability skill check. That seems to me to be consistent with RAW, but it sure would be nice if they made that explicit.
Pretty similar to how I'm ruling it.
For me, there's a difference in how you gain the condition: whether through the Hide action or classic spells. So, depending on that, the way you're detected is slightly different
And yeah, I know: the rules could be clearer, and some guidance on how to apply them would be nice.
I have a similar rule, but i don't make people hide when its obvious no one could know their location, long distances, enough distractions etc.
If you rule that an Invisible creature's location is automatically unknown every turn without doing anything, it begs the question what is the DC to counter that, if any?
I think it's easier to rule that you always know the location of an Invisible creature that don't use Stealth in some way. Like this, each has relevance in some way.
If you rule that an Invisible creature's location is automatically unknown every turn without doing anything, it begs the question what is the DC to counter that, if any?
I think it's easier to rule that you always know the location of an Invisible creature that don't use Stealth in some way. Like this, each has relevance in some way.
I realized I wrote something that wasn't well explained, and instead of updating my answer, I accidentally removed it :'(
In any case, to avoid more confusion from my side, I'll use your reply to say I agree with it.
@TexasDevin- yes I'm running it like that. If you're invisible and walking down the corridor, it's going to be a straight perception check. I could imagine a player saying that they are invisible, so they should get advantage (or rather the enemy gets disadvantage), but that's not anywhere RAW.
Key insights/conclusions:
If you are invisible from a spell, you still need to use the "hide" action to not be found (stealth roll). This gets you the DC to be found (minimum 15). If you are found, you are *still invisible* but can be attacked (disadvantage). If you are not found, then your location is unknown, then it's really up to the DM what happens- generally you can't be attacked directly (just AOE). Yes, the "hide" action gives you the invisible condition but that's redundant and can be ignored.
Regular hiding requires the hide action and a stealth roll. You need to to be heavily obscured or behind 3/4 or total cover. This gets you the DC to be found (minimum 15). If you're not found then you have the invisible condition AND your location is unknown. If you are found, then you don't have the invisible condition and your location is known.
None of these things involve advantage/disadvantage on stealth or perception checks.
Is it fair that successful regular hiding gives the Invisible condition AND your location is unknown? Should it just be the invisible condition? I guess the specific situation really matters and it's up to the DM to decide.
Finding the invisible or hiding person- if the hiding is in a heavily obscured area then the person searching is effectively Blinded. I'm assuming that the person searching for an invisible person or a person in a heavily obscured area is not relying on their sight- they are using hearing or context clues. So I guess again, it depends on the specific situation if the DM would grant disadvantage on that Perception check, but in general, no, it's just a straight roll. Seems weird to not be at a disadvantage searching for someone in complete darkness but mechanically it makes sense.
I agree with a lot of what y'all are saying- the handbook implies but doesn't really define what not being found *means* mechanically.
Being Invisible no longer say ''For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured.'' like it used to, so to Hide, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscuredor behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, meaning two things;
1) You must take an action
2) You must be obscured or covered somehow
The Invisible or Blinded condition only fulfill the requirement that you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight. This to me reinforce the notion that hiding must be used deliberately in most case.
I think the way I'm going to play it for now is that if you're invisible, you cannot be seen, but your location is generally known. If you take the hide action successfully, you are invisible, and your location becomes unknown. If someone wants to find you, they take the search action and make a Wisdom (Perception) check with a DC of your Dexterity (Stealth) ability skill check. That seems to me to be consistent with RAW, but it sure would be nice if they made that explicit.
I also do this but the 2024 rules make it significantly harder to hide in the first place.
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If you rule that an Invisible creature's location is automatically unknown every turn without doing anything, it begs the question what is the DC to counter that, if any?
I think it's easier to rule that you always know the location of an Invisible creature that don't use Stealth in some way. Like this, each has relevance in some way.
Depends on context I'd say, though again i require a hide unless its seems silly. like what is the perception check to know the location of someone 6 rooms over who isn't trying to hide, basically infinity DC unless they are practicing their death metal performance. Heck a guy isn't hiding, isn't invisible, but what is the DC to pick them out immediately in a crowded tavern. What if they are in a booth and you don't have line of sight to them. Normally it does not matter you just walk around and find them no check needed, but if for example you are trying to spot them before the guard/assassin/ex wife does what is the DC.
My 6 rooms over comment, got me thinking. So how do the the always know the location of invisible people handle the next room. The people the room over are just chilling at a table, they aren't carousing, just relaxing. The party walks towards it lets say they are hiding, do you say there are 6 people in the room before they open it, are you more detailed, less detailed, do they have to make a perception test at all, the old listen at doors check. Is full cover somehow different to you than the invisible spell and 60 feet of distance, if so, why. And I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm curious, where are your limits if any. I can see no real limits(ignoring the absurd like knowing the location of everyone in existence etc)being valid as its a easy, hard and fast rule where you aren't constantly making judgement calls, its fair.
For me that is why I add the caveat unless it seems silly. You are in a small room, a invisible person is walking behind you with no attempt at hiding, you hear them and know where they are. Short range combat, generally assume the same. But tons of distractions like crowds, large distances, barriers that stop sound yeah its not automatic anymore you have to make a check. DC based on how I make the call on most DCs, would it be easy, hard, near impossible etc.
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So I can't sleep and still a bit confused on this:
Player casts invisibility on themselves. They need to take the hide action first before someone can't find them.
The stealth check is a straight roll because the invisible condition doesn't give you advantage on stealth checks.
What about the person trying to see you? Do they get disadvantage on perception checks?
If you're invisible then are you heavily obscured? That just means they can't see you via sight- nothing about perception checks.
Assuming that person is trying to find you by listening or something, then it's just a straight perception roll.
So if you go invisible, then you first must hide before you can't be found, and then it doesn't affect your stealth roll or their perception checks? Unless the DM rules circumstances call for it
RAW, you're right.
RAW, no.
There's not relation between the Invisible condition and Heavily Obscured, but it's related to the Hide action:
There is a recent related thread about this question here: Should you know where Invisible creatures are?
I don't understand why you would need to Hide if you're already Invisible.
pronouns: he/she/they
I understood that the condition was gained through the spell, not the Hide action.
So, I guess in this case, Hide could be more about avoiding being heard (?) and finally undetected (?)
This is not necessarily true. Some things don't call for a roll because they are impossible
If you are invisible, you "aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you". That would include the act of being seen
If you're invisible and standing in the corner of the room, and someone walks in and glances around the room, there's no Stealth or Perception roll required
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Beyond that's it appears to be up to the DM on how to handle players who may know an enemy is there, but their characters don't.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Unfortunately, the 2024 rules appear to neglect this aspect of hiding altogether. Some of the OPs comments are correct for the 2014 rules but for 2024 - DMs have to house rule all of it.
For example: What does the Hide action do?
"Hide [Action]
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
If you are heavily obscured or behind cover you can make a Hide check to receive the Invisible condition.
That's all hiding does. If you cast the Invisible spell on yourself, you receive the Invisible condition and it doesn't do any more than taking the Hide action.
In the 2014 rules there were additional useful pieces of information:
"If you are hidden — both unseen and unheard — when you make an attack, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
This rule was in the section on unseen attackers and targets in the combat rules and was changed in the 2024 rules to the following:
"If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses."
The Hide action (in 2024) does not make a character Hidden. Hidden appears to be completely undefined in the 2024 rules.
In addition, the 2014 rules contained the following description in the Invisible condition:
"An invisible creature is impossible to see without the aid of magic or a special sense. For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured. The creature's location can be detected by any noise it makes or any tracks it leaves."
and in the section on hiding in the 2014 skills chapter.
"An invisible creature can always try to hide."
An invisible creature was considered heavily obscured for the purposes of hiding and could always try to hide. This, of course, makes no sense when the 2024 rules for the Hide action only grant the Invisible condition. (It also made no sense in circumstances where the Invisible creature could be seen (eg See Invisible spell) but that wasn't stated clearly. Similar to the 2024 rules lacking a statement that being able to see in Darkness removes the Heavily Obscured effect from the area - or that the existence of Darkness itself is dependent on the senses of the creature involved. Darkness only exists if a creature can't see in that area - similar to how Invisibility should only exist if the creature can't be seen .. but the Stealth/Hiding/Invisible rules in both 2014 and 2024 aren't well written).
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So in the 2024 rules there seems to be no way for a creature to become "Hidden" and Hidden itself is not defined. In 2014, Hidden was interpreted to mean that the location of a creature became unknown - the only way this can occur in the 2024 rules is due to DM decision. The rules appear to contain no mechanism for it.
RAW seems to imply (now there's a dangerous phrase) that you need to attempt to find a creature who has taken the hide action successfully. Logically, if finding a creature requires an attempt, then the lack of the attempt should mean the lack of knowing where that creature is. But you're correct to point out the problem with this not being explicit.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
The Hide grants the Invisible; which is the same effect as casting Invisibility or Greater Invisibility on yourself. There's no benefit to taking that action after already having the condition.
A creature only has Advantage or Disadvantage on a roll if something says they do.
Whether an area is Heavily Obscured is circumstantial. Typical examples would be inside a cave or the difference between day and night, but is can also be due to an environmental effect (e.g. Heavy Precipitation, Strong Wind) or a spell (e.g. Darkness, Fog Cloud). Again, a creature is only Heavily Obscured if a rule says they are. A creature with the Invisible condition is not Heavily Obscured by default. Something else must say they are.
And while an Invisible creature cannot be targeted by any effect which requires them to be seen, they can still be targeted by attacks. By default, other creatures still know the Invisible creature's general location.
Yes and no. The Hide action gives a method for setting a DC for a Wisdom ([skills]Perception[/skills]) roll. Any other method must set its own DC, and by default the Invisibility and Greater Invisibility spells don't do that.
Depending on the DM, they might say no DC means they either can't be found with a roll or don't need to be found with a roll. And, yes, there is a difference.
No and yes.
A creature can always be found regardless of how it acquired the Invisible condition. It might require a Wisdom (Perception) roll or a spell, like Faerie Fire or See Invisibility, but they're never undetectable. Even a high enough passive Perception score might be enough to render a Hide action moot.
But you are correct that simply being Invisible doesn't grant Advantage with a Dexterity (Stealth) roll.
Instead of relying on this hard-and-fast rule from 2014 which might not have made sense in certain situations, it appears that the intent is that we should now instead rely on this more open-ended rule:
It's not great, but that seems to be a deliberate design change.
To me, it looks like what they were going for here was to use the word "concealed" as a synonym for "hidden" in this context -- meaning, essentially, unseen and unheard and location unknown. Unfortunately, and problematically, the word "concealed" is used differently within the Invisible condition itself to simply mean "unseen" in that context. So, we have a word that's used in two different ways that is not tightly defined anywhere within the game -- the word "concealed" is not a Glossary entry, for example.
I would argue that the terms "unseen" and "hidden" are both decently well-defined within the "Unseen Attackers and Targets" section of the general rules. As you've already pointed out, we still do have this one line from 2024:
This pretty well implies that by definition when you are hidden your location is unknown. It should be more explicitly defined somewhere, but it's not nothing.
Now, the biggest logical leap that needs to be made which should have been more explicitly defined is that when you take the Hide action to "try to conceal yourself", then a successful Hide action results in successfully concealing yourself such that you are now "concealed" in addition to acquiring the Invisible condition, AND (here is the logical leap) that a successful Hide action causes you to become "hidden" by virtue of the fact that you have become "concealed" which means exactly the same thing in this context. Yes, it's not explicit, but all of this is definitely implied.
As an aside, when I google the definition of the word "conceal", I get the following results:
-- Keep from sight; Hide.
-- Keep (something) secret; prevent from being known or noticed.
-- Keep from being observed or discovered; Hide.
-- Keep secret; prevent or avoid disclosing or divulging.
-- Hide something from view or from public knowledge; try to keep something secret.
So, we can see that sometimes the word is used to mean something similar to "unseen" and sometimes the word is used to mean something more like "hidden" and "to make something unknown" which is a lot more like how "hidden" was defined in 2014: "unseen and unheard and location unknown".
For completeness, one other place that the word "conceal" comes up is in the Glossary entry for the Search action, which says that:
and the table contains the entry:
Perception (when trying to detect): Concealed creature or object.
This aligns well with the text within the Hide action.
So again, the question is whether or not we can consider a "concealed" creature to be a "hidden" creature for the purposes of the various rules that are scattered around, some of which refer to the creature as "concealed" and some of which refer to the creature as "hidden". These terms are not explicitly linked within the Hide action, but in context they do mean the same thing via the common English language definitions.
Further food for thought -- here are the few places in the rules where the terms "hide", "hidden" (--) or "conceal / concealed" (**) pop up in the rules in the context of hidden creatures:
General Rules -- Playing the Game:
-- Stealth / Dexterity / Escape notice by moving quietly and hiding behind things.
-- Hide Action / Make a Dexterity (Stealth) check.
-- Hiding: Adventurers and monsters often hide, whether to spy on one another, sneak past a guardian, or set an ambush. The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. When you try to hide, you take the Hide action.
-- Marching Order: A marching order makes it easier to determine which characters are affected by traps, which ones can spot hidden enemies, and which ones are the closest to those enemies if a fight breaks out.
-- Surprise: if an ambusher starts combat while hidden from a foe who is unaware that combat is starting, that foe is surprised.
-- Unseen Attackers and Targets: If you are hidden when you make an attack roll, you give away your location when the attack hits or misses.
General Rules -- Character Classes:
-- Rangers learn to track their quarry as a predator does, moving stealthily through the wilds and hiding themselves in brush and rubble.
-- Nature's Veil: You invoke spirits of nature to magically hide yourself. As a Bonus Action, you can give yourself the Invisible condition until the end of your next turn.
-- Cunning Action: On your turn, you can take one of the following actions as a Bonus Action: Dash, Disengage, or Hide.
-- Supreme Sneak: If you have the Hide action’s Invisible condition, this attack doesn’t end that condition on you if you end the turn behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover.
General Rules -- Character Origins:
-- Naturally Stealthy: You can take the Hide action even when you are obscured only by a creature that is at least one size larger than you.
Spell Descriptions:
-- Haste: That action can be used to take only the Attack (one attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Utilize action.
** Mirage Arcane: Similarly, you can alter the appearance of structures or add them where none are present. The spell doesn’t disguise, conceal, or add creatures.
** Pass Without Trace: You radiate a concealing aura in a 30-foot Emanation for the duration. While in the aura, you and each creature you choose have a +10 bonus to Dexterity (Stealth) checks and leave no tracks.
DMG, The Basics:
-- Overly cautious players can slow down the game by checking every flagstone, door, and wall in a dungeon for traps and hidden dangers.
Rules Glossary:
** / -- Hide Action: With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself.
** Invisible Condition: Concealed. You aren’t affected by any effect that requires its target to be seen unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you. Any equipment you are wearing or carrying is also concealed.
** Search action: (Use) Perception (when trying to detect) / Concealed creature or object
Anyways, hopefully some of that was helpful. I agree that the wording for both the Hide action and the Invisible condition needs to be cleaned up a bit, but we can sort of get there from the text if we look at all of the text that is sprinkled throughout the game related to these concepts.
I think the way I'm going to play it for now is that if you're invisible, you cannot be seen, but your location is generally known. If you take the hide action successfully, you are invisible, and your location becomes unknown. If someone wants to find you, they take the search action and make a Wisdom (Perception) check with a DC of your Dexterity (Stealth) ability skill check. That seems to me to be consistent with RAW, but it sure would be nice if they made that explicit.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Pretty similar to how I'm ruling it.
For me, there's a difference in how you gain the condition: whether through the Hide action or classic spells. So, depending on that, the way you're detected is slightly different
And yeah, I know: the rules could be clearer, and some guidance on how to apply them would be nice.
I have a similar rule, but i don't make people hide when its obvious no one could know their location, long distances, enough distractions etc.
If you rule that an Invisible creature's location is automatically unknown every turn without doing anything, it begs the question what is the DC to counter that, if any?
I think it's easier to rule that you always know the location of an Invisible creature that don't use Stealth in some way. Like this, each has relevance in some way.
I realized I wrote something that wasn't well explained, and instead of updating my answer, I accidentally removed it :'(
In any case, to avoid more confusion from my side, I'll use your reply to say I agree with it.
@TexasDevin- yes I'm running it like that. If you're invisible and walking down the corridor, it's going to be a straight perception check. I could imagine a player saying that they are invisible, so they should get advantage (or rather the enemy gets disadvantage), but that's not anywhere RAW.
Key insights/conclusions:
If you are invisible from a spell, you still need to use the "hide" action to not be found (stealth roll). This gets you the DC to be found (minimum 15). If you are found, you are *still invisible* but can be attacked (disadvantage). If you are not found, then your location is unknown, then it's really up to the DM what happens- generally you can't be attacked directly (just AOE). Yes, the "hide" action gives you the invisible condition but that's redundant and can be ignored.
Regular hiding requires the hide action and a stealth roll. You need to to be heavily obscured or behind 3/4 or total cover. This gets you the DC to be found (minimum 15). If you're not found then you have the invisible condition AND your location is unknown. If you are found, then you don't have the invisible condition and your location is known.
None of these things involve advantage/disadvantage on stealth or perception checks.
Is it fair that successful regular hiding gives the Invisible condition AND your location is unknown? Should it just be the invisible condition? I guess the specific situation really matters and it's up to the DM to decide.
Finding the invisible or hiding person- if the hiding is in a heavily obscured area then the person searching is effectively Blinded. I'm assuming that the person searching for an invisible person or a person in a heavily obscured area is not relying on their sight- they are using hearing or context clues. So I guess again, it depends on the specific situation if the DM would grant disadvantage on that Perception check, but in general, no, it's just a straight roll. Seems weird to not be at a disadvantage searching for someone in complete darkness but mechanically it makes sense.
I agree with a lot of what y'all are saying- the handbook implies but doesn't really define what not being found *means* mechanically.
Being Invisible no longer say ''For the purpose of hiding, the creature is heavily obscured.'' like it used to, so to Hide, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, meaning two things;
1) You must take an action
2) You must be obscured or covered somehow
The Invisible or Blinded condition only fulfill the requirement that you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight. This to me reinforce the notion that hiding must be used deliberately in most case.
I also do this but the 2024 rules make it significantly harder to hide in the first place.
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Depends on context I'd say, though again i require a hide unless its seems silly. like what is the perception check to know the location of someone 6 rooms over who isn't trying to hide, basically infinity DC unless they are practicing their death metal performance. Heck a guy isn't hiding, isn't invisible, but what is the DC to pick them out immediately in a crowded tavern. What if they are in a booth and you don't have line of sight to them. Normally it does not matter you just walk around and find them no check needed, but if for example you are trying to spot them before the guard/assassin/ex wife does what is the DC.
My 6 rooms over comment, got me thinking. So how do the the always know the location of invisible people handle the next room. The people the room over are just chilling at a table, they aren't carousing, just relaxing. The party walks towards it lets say they are hiding, do you say there are 6 people in the room before they open it, are you more detailed, less detailed, do they have to make a perception test at all, the old listen at doors check. Is full cover somehow different to you than the invisible spell and 60 feet of distance, if so, why. And I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm curious, where are your limits if any. I can see no real limits(ignoring the absurd like knowing the location of everyone in existence etc)being valid as its a easy, hard and fast rule where you aren't constantly making judgement calls, its fair.
For me that is why I add the caveat unless it seems silly. You are in a small room, a invisible person is walking behind you with no attempt at hiding, you hear them and know where they are. Short range combat, generally assume the same. But tons of distractions like crowds, large distances, barriers that stop sound yeah its not automatic anymore you have to make a check. DC based on how I make the call on most DCs, would it be easy, hard, near impossible etc.