So at the end of all this discussion about the hide action, being hidden/invisible, attacking from being in said condition and what not, has OP's question been answered? Have we covered the RAW rules on how to proc Sneak Attack for ranged attacks?
Not if I'm hidden/invisible though, right? Until I actually hit them and lose that condition.
You generally lose the condition whether you hit the target or not, and unless you are attacking at a pretty long range, you probably don't have time to move back to cover while the arrow is in flight (meaning that even if you can remain hidden on a miss, you will be usually be exposed if you hit your target).
RAW states that you gain the Invisible condition when you succeed with Stealth. However, the condition ends if someone 'finds' you by making a Perception roll at a DC equal to your original Stealth roll.
But they have to be looking for me or know that something is there and they can only do that on their turn, right? Otherwise it's just their Passive Perception, right?
That seems to be a little unclear. Does your DM have you make rolls to spot something you happen to pass, or do you only roll if you ask for one? I will admit that RAW, it appears to be the case that it would be purely Passive Perception (but see below), but the way Perception Rolls are handled doesn't seem quite to follow that.
...if you are trying to do something silly (shoot someone before combat breaks out, run behind a pillar in a brightly lit room in full view of everyone, stealth, and immediately run back out) then the DM might provide the NPCs with sufficient bonuses that they automatically 'find' you.
On the other hand, if the scene is lit only by flickering torchlight and you are in the middle of a chaotic battle, their bonus would be less or even non-existent, depending on circumstances.
Depending on your DM you may need to be fairly tactical in how you utilize Stealth and not regard it as 'invisibility with a skill roll'.
I disagree. Shooting someone before combat breaks out by hiding is not silly. It's extremely tactical. You get Surprise advantage on initiative rolls and you get advantage on your first attack so you can Sneak Attack.
Shooting someone before combat breaks out isn't silly and I wasn't trying to imply it was. What I was trying to provide was an example of doing something that gets everyone looking at you, running behind a pillar (while they are still looking at you and there are no distractions) and then immediately reemerging with absolutely no cover whatsoever.
Also, slipping into the shadows or stepping behind a column or ducking behind a desk, etc. with a successful roll should be fine - that's the whole point of beefing up one's Stealth. On a success, it's assumed the enemies were engaged with the other players or distracted or thinking of something else or had their focus on something else. It's like Batman disappearing when someone looks aside and then looks back and he's gone. Now they might take an action to roll a perception check on their turn since they "know" I was there, but if they all fail, I should still get my advantage Sneak Attack on my turn when I suddenly pop up and shoot them. Obviously if 6 NPCs are actively looking for me, the odds are against me... no need to give them any bonuses.
You could also think of it as me in a fully lit room, diving for cover and then popping up randomly and taking a shot.
If the enemies are engaged with other players, you would have a better chance of success. I'm providing an example where that isn't happening to illustrate that just rolling Stealth shouldn't be viewed as you turning invisible (despite the name of the Condition). There needs to be some cover, shadows, or distraction to work with beyond the cover needed to make the initial roll.
Yes, the circumstances can play out differently in various locations, but the DM shouldn't be buffing their NPCs with random bonuses.
I'm not talking about the DM using random bonuses. I'm talking about the DM using situational bonuses, which is normal.
Suppose you punch an NPC in the nose. In that case, it will be tough to convince them immediately afterward with a Deception roll that you didn't.
n.b., you might be able to convince them of some other fact, such as a spell was controlling you, you were trying to kill a poisonous spider that was on their nose, etc. I am explicitly referring to trying to claim that it didn't happen.
And situational modifiers apply to Passive Perception just like to Perception rolls (except for Advantage/Disadvantage, which applies to Passive Perception rolls by giving a +5/-5).
Most of the time, the Advantage/Disadvantage system should handle those situational modifiers just fine. Unless you are doing something outrageous, you should probably be okay with using Stealth like you want to. I am simply pointing out that it does have its limitations.
Also, slipping into the shadows or stepping behind a column or ducking behind a desk, etc. with a successful roll should be fine - that's the whole point of beefing up one's Stealth. On a success, it's assumed the enemies were engaged with the other players or distracted or thinking of something else or had their focus on something else. It's like Batman disappearing when someone looks aside and then looks back and he's gone. Now they might take an action to roll a perception check on their turn since they "know" I was there, but if they all fail, I should still get my advantage Sneak Attack on my turn when I suddenly pop up and shoot them. Obviously if 6 NPCs are actively looking for me, the odds are against me... no need to give them any bonuses.
I think you are basically correct here. In 2024, hiding makes you "invisible" (narratively, because no-one is looking at you / you are staying out of vision arcs, rather than being literally transparent, but there is no mechanical distinction to the condition). You get to "pop out" and attack with advantage, if you were successfully hidden. You lose the condition (special rule for hiding) if someone finds you with a Search action or whatever.
Someone can't hold an action to attack you when you pop out, because Ready requires a "perceivable" trigger, and you are concealed until you attack (or are found by a Search action). If someone Readied an attack on "when that sniper becomes visible" it'll trigger after your attack.
Anyway, the general rules for this are pretty straightforward if you leave behind old assumptions. Combat is a pretty good distraction. In 2014, there was this: "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you." (Which, by the way, still allowed sniping, because you weren't approaching.) Nothing like that appears in 2024; they have essentially removed the 360-degree combat awareness from the game. So you can basically sneak around "invisible" after hiding.
And there are plenty of places for DMs to apply limits or common sense or tactical challenges there. Maybe you need to roll stealth again to stay quiet as you move. Maybe an enemy has blindsight or tremorsense and you're within range. Maybe an enemy sniper in overwatch position gets passive perception against your hide. Maybe the not-in-combat guard gets advantage on their Search actions. Maybe the not-in-combat guard who is staring right where you are hidden will automatically find you when you pop out.
The Hide action requirements are only to gain the invisible condition. This condition is not broken by no longer applying the requirements because those only pertain to making the hide action.
This is the detail that a ton of people are getting wrong with 2024 stealth rules. In fact, the Invisible condition is never actually "gained" through the Hide action. A different word was chosen, and it was very deliberate because it causes the entire statement to have a subtly different meaning -- one which makes a lot more sense. Look closely:
With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition.
The whole concept is about concealing yourself in such a location that you cannot be seen or heard and therefore an enemy doesn't know where you are. You do this by essentially attempting to remain quiet (the stealth check) while located in a position where you cannot be seen. When all of these conditions are met, you HAVE the condition. You don't "get" or "gain" or "acquire" the condition. You have the condition when you are successfully concealed. The careful use of the word "have" in that statement means that it's an ongoing thing. Like, while certain conditions exist, you have it. It's not something that is permanently "gained" at a certain snapshot in time. It's an ongoing conditional statement. When you are concealed (because you passed the check while unseen), you have it. There is no reason to assume that you still have the condition when you are not concealed. The rule only states that you have it when you are concealed "on a successful check". Remember, when it comes to hiding, a "successful check" is an ongoing thing. It's not a snapshot. You save and write down the value of that roll while you remain concealed because it can be used later on if an enemy eventually attempts a search action to try to find you. So, in this context, "on a successful roll" means "while that roll is still valid and in play", NOT "at the moment in time when this die roll occurs". Remember, if being concealed involves being stealthy while unseen, then why in the world would you retain any of the same benefits while walking around out in the open?
That's not how it works. You only retain the benefits of being concealed while you are . . . uh . . . concealed. Quiet and unseen due to being located in a heavily obscured space or behind cover. Remain concealed AND avoid making a loud noise or casting a loud spell or making an attack roll or being found by a search action and you can retain the benefits of being concealed such as "having" the Invisible condition. Otherwise, you don't have it.
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So at the end of all this discussion about the hide action, being hidden/invisible, attacking from being in said condition and what not, has OP's question been answered? Have we covered the RAW rules on how to proc Sneak Attack for ranged attacks?
My vote is yes.
You generally lose the condition whether you hit the target or not, and unless you are attacking at a pretty long range, you probably don't have time to move back to cover while the arrow is in flight (meaning that even if you can remain hidden on a miss, you will be usually be exposed if you hit your target).
That seems to be a little unclear. Does your DM have you make rolls to spot something you happen to pass, or do you only roll if you ask for one? I will admit that RAW, it appears to be the case that it would be purely Passive Perception (but see below), but the way Perception Rolls are handled doesn't seem quite to follow that.
Shooting someone before combat breaks out isn't silly and I wasn't trying to imply it was. What I was trying to provide was an example of doing something that gets everyone looking at you, running behind a pillar (while they are still looking at you and there are no distractions) and then immediately reemerging with absolutely no cover whatsoever.
If the enemies are engaged with other players, you would have a better chance of success. I'm providing an example where that isn't happening to illustrate that just rolling Stealth shouldn't be viewed as you turning invisible (despite the name of the Condition). There needs to be some cover, shadows, or distraction to work with beyond the cover needed to make the initial roll.
I'm not talking about the DM using random bonuses. I'm talking about the DM using situational bonuses, which is normal.
Suppose you punch an NPC in the nose. In that case, it will be tough to convince them immediately afterward with a Deception roll that you didn't.
n.b., you might be able to convince them of some other fact, such as a spell was controlling you, you were trying to kill a poisonous spider that was on their nose, etc. I am explicitly referring to trying to claim that it didn't happen.
And situational modifiers apply to Passive Perception just like to Perception rolls (except for Advantage/Disadvantage, which applies to Passive Perception rolls by giving a +5/-5).
Most of the time, the Advantage/Disadvantage system should handle those situational modifiers just fine. Unless you are doing something outrageous, you should probably be okay with using Stealth like you want to. I am simply pointing out that it does have its limitations.
I think you are basically correct here. In 2024, hiding makes you "invisible" (narratively, because no-one is looking at you / you are staying out of vision arcs, rather than being literally transparent, but there is no mechanical distinction to the condition). You get to "pop out" and attack with advantage, if you were successfully hidden. You lose the condition (special rule for hiding) if someone finds you with a Search action or whatever.
Someone can't hold an action to attack you when you pop out, because Ready requires a "perceivable" trigger, and you are concealed until you attack (or are found by a Search action). If someone Readied an attack on "when that sniper becomes visible" it'll trigger after your attack.
Anyway, the general rules for this are pretty straightforward if you leave behind old assumptions. Combat is a pretty good distraction. In 2014, there was this: "In combat, most creatures stay alert for signs of danger all around, so if you come out of hiding and approach a creature, it usually sees you." (Which, by the way, still allowed sniping, because you weren't approaching.) Nothing like that appears in 2024; they have essentially removed the 360-degree combat awareness from the game. So you can basically sneak around "invisible" after hiding.
And there are plenty of places for DMs to apply limits or common sense or tactical challenges there. Maybe you need to roll stealth again to stay quiet as you move. Maybe an enemy has blindsight or tremorsense and you're within range. Maybe an enemy sniper in overwatch position gets passive perception against your hide. Maybe the not-in-combat guard gets advantage on their Search actions. Maybe the not-in-combat guard who is staring right where you are hidden will automatically find you when you pop out.
This is the detail that a ton of people are getting wrong with 2024 stealth rules. In fact, the Invisible condition is never actually "gained" through the Hide action. A different word was chosen, and it was very deliberate because it causes the entire statement to have a subtly different meaning -- one which makes a lot more sense. Look closely:
The whole concept is about concealing yourself in such a location that you cannot be seen or heard and therefore an enemy doesn't know where you are. You do this by essentially attempting to remain quiet (the stealth check) while located in a position where you cannot be seen. When all of these conditions are met, you HAVE the condition. You don't "get" or "gain" or "acquire" the condition. You have the condition when you are successfully concealed. The careful use of the word "have" in that statement means that it's an ongoing thing. Like, while certain conditions exist, you have it. It's not something that is permanently "gained" at a certain snapshot in time. It's an ongoing conditional statement. When you are concealed (because you passed the check while unseen), you have it. There is no reason to assume that you still have the condition when you are not concealed. The rule only states that you have it when you are concealed "on a successful check". Remember, when it comes to hiding, a "successful check" is an ongoing thing. It's not a snapshot. You save and write down the value of that roll while you remain concealed because it can be used later on if an enemy eventually attempts a search action to try to find you. So, in this context, "on a successful roll" means "while that roll is still valid and in play", NOT "at the moment in time when this die roll occurs". Remember, if being concealed involves being stealthy while unseen, then why in the world would you retain any of the same benefits while walking around out in the open?
That's not how it works. You only retain the benefits of being concealed while you are . . . uh . . . concealed. Quiet and unseen due to being located in a heavily obscured space or behind cover. Remain concealed AND avoid making a loud noise or casting a loud spell or making an attack roll or being found by a search action and you can retain the benefits of being concealed such as "having" the Invisible condition. Otherwise, you don't have it.