Seems like attacking while hiding is a thing (see the description of the Skulker feat, Sniper benefit - it literally says "if you make an attack roll while hidden...") and it is the CORE FEATURE of the Rogue and the Rogue's Sneak Attack (or any attack from hiding really).
Lets say my Rogue stands behind something (Total Cover), successfully roles a Stealth check (is this even necessary since I'm already in Total Cover?) and gains the advantage of the Invisible condition.
Now... How do I Sneak Attack an enemy with my ranged or thrown weapons? What are the exact rules of this common event?
We use Fantasy Grounds and it won't even let me target an enemy because my line of sight is blocked. Is this just all hand waved in RAW and I just roll my Sneak Attack with advantage anyway and play it out? Am I supposed to LEAVE TOTAL COVER in order to attack? If so, what's the purpose of total cover? How are you "invisible" if you leave total cover?? Do I even need cover in order to hide???
(I've read a few other posts here about hiding and they don't really shed any light on a concrete solution).
(and yes, I understand that if my attack hits, my cover is blown (I think there are ways to maintain it) and I need to hide again and, I guess, roll another stealth check).
Is this core mechanic of one of the major classes not specified in the rules and just left to be negotiated with the DM??
If you were successfully hidden, then you leave total cover and attack, and roll with advantage. If the DM says you don't get advantage because you left total cover, point out how that literally makes Sneak Attack from range impossible, and point out how the 2024 Thief subclass's level 9 feature could not even work at all if leaving cover instantly loses your Invisible status. Therefore, RAW, you are still Invisible even when you are visible, and only lose your Hidden/Invisible status when you make an attack.
If the DM won't budge, you should stop being someone playing a ranged Rogue in that game.
Being behind Total Cover is different from when you Hide, one is a physical obstacle making a target behind it more difficult to harm, while the other is an action to become Invisible and make your location unknown. A completely opaque source of Total Cover may mean you are unseen as well though which grant similar benefits depending how DM rule it.
You don't need cover to Hide, an Heavily Obscured area can also allow you while being also out of any enemy’s line of sight;
Total Cover blocks line of effect and prevent targeting, one behind can’t be targeted directly. Hiding behind Three-Quarters Cover or within Heavily Obscured doesn't prevent targeting on the other hand.
Wether you can attack from behind Total Cover would depend if you can move enought to get a clear shot. The DM will tell, many allow it.
In a virtual table environement, you may need to move the token to be able to attack because of how it establish line of effect.
Now wether you remain hidden when you move in the open is up to DM, this aspect is heavily debated in various forums, some think you remain Invisible in plain sight and others think you are immediately found without the cover or obscurement necessary to Hide.
If the DM won't budge, you should stop being someone playing a ranged Rogue in that game.
Fixed. It's precisely analoguous to a GM saying 'well I think spells are overpowered, so casters don't get them!' Sneak attack is what the rogue is about, and if someone cannot accept that it does a lot of damage, don't play with them.
Even if ... I have a rogue who is also a squire of Solamnia, and casts Booming Blade, and also Hunter's Mark, and sometimes I'm kinda ashamed of how much damage that does. But I'm the rogue: I'm literally there to hit hard. It's my job. Oh, and a bug bear. 1d8+1d8+1d6+sneak attack+weapon damage+2d6 (for .. Surprise Attack or whatever it's called).
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The way we play it is that if you are hidden and in cover, you can make a ranged attack with advantage as long as you do not need to leave your current location to do so. This handles "popping out from behind a tree/rock" or "firing from the bushes" and all that stuff. But if you are hidden and want to move to another location that puts you out in the open, you are no longer hidden and must make a new stealth check when you are once again in cover.
Note that as Rogue you don't need Advantage to use Sneak Attack if at least one of your allies that isn't Incapacitated is within 5 feet of the target while you don’t have Disadvantage on the attack roll.
You can even more easily use it once you can Steady Aim, so Hide in't necessary for that, generally being more a defensive action to prevent locating or targeting you easily.
If you were successfully hidden, then you leave total cover and attack, and roll with advantage. If the DM says you don't get advantage because you left total cover, point out how that literally makes Sneak Attack from range impossible, and point out how the 2024 Thief subclass's level 9 feature could not even work at all if leaving cover instantly loses your Invisible status. Therefore, RAW, you are still Invisible even when you are visible, and only lose your Hidden/Invisible status when you make an attack.
Thanks. Yes, I've had to point out that Sneak Attack would be impossible if I have to leave cover and become visible. Frustrating.
Being behind Total Cover is different from when you Hide, one is a physical obstacle making a target behind it more difficult to harm, while the other is an action to become Invisible and make your location unknown. A completely opaque source of Total Cover may mean you are unseen as well though which grant similar benefits depending how DM rule it.
You don't need cover to Hide, an Heavily Obscured area can also allow you while being also out of any enemy’s line of sight;
Total Cover blocks line of effect and prevent targeting, one behind can’t be targeted directly. Hiding behind Three-Quarters Cover or within Heavily Obscured doesn't prevent targeting on the other hand.
Wether you can attack from behind Total Cover would depend if you can move enought to get a clear shot. The DM will tell, many allow it.
In a virtual table environement, you may need to move the token to be able to attack because of how it establish line of effect.
Now wether you remain hidden when you move in the open is up to DM, this aspect is heavily debated in various forums, some think you remain Invisible in plain sight and others think you are immediately found without the cover or obscurement necessary to Hide.
Thanks. I'm not sure what Heavily Obscured is - ah: darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage. We are in a dungeon with hard objects so I have to get behind something to get total cover. I don't want 3/4 cover because I want to be hidden so enemies can't target me. I guess we have to start tracking every light source to see if there is darkness. There is no fog or foliage... yet. More negotiations, ugh. Actually, attacking from darkness would be easier since I'd have line of sight and the enemy wouldn't necessarily see me.
Yes, I've had to move the token out of cover in order to attack, but I tell the DM I'm attacking from cover. To be clear, my DM isn't a prick, it's just that we're trying to figure out the rules and it's a pain it's not clear, so we have to figure out (negotiate) all of this. I had no idea the can of worms we were getting into.
If the DM won't budge, you should stop being someone playing a ranged Rogue in that game.
Fixed. It's precisely analoguous to a GM saying 'well I think spells are overpowered, so casters don't get them!' Sneak attack is what the rogue is about, and if someone cannot accept that it does a lot of damage, don't play with them.
Even if ... I have a rogue who is also a squire of Solamnia, and casts Booming Blade, and also Hunter's Mark, and sometimes I'm kinda ashamed of how much damage that does. But I'm the rogue: I'm literally there to hit hard. It's my job. Oh, and a bug bear. 1d8+1d8+1d6+sneak attack+weapon damage+2d6 (for .. Surprise Attack or whatever it's called).
Haha, true. But again, the rules for this are so vague and unspecific. And my DM isn't a jerk (well, mostly, lol)... we're just trying to figure this all out and it's extremely frustrating and takes the fun out of every encounter.
The way we play it is that if you are hidden and in cover, you can make a ranged attack with advantage as long as you do not need to leave your current location to do so. This handles "popping out from behind a tree/rock" or "firing from the bushes" and all that stuff. But if you are hidden and want to move to another location that puts you out in the open, you are no longer hidden and must make a new stealth check when you are once again in cover.
Thanks. I've usually had to use the Cunning Action to hide as a bonus action after every attack, which burns my Bonus Action every turn, ugh.
Note that as Rogue you don't need Advantage to use Sneak Attack if at least one of your allies that isn't Incapacitated is within 5 feet of the target while you don’t have Disadvantage on the attack roll.
You can even more easily use it once you can Steady Aim, so Hide in't necessary for that, generally being more a defensive action to prevent locating or targeting you easily.
Yes, the 5' ally is nice when it happens and Steady Aim is ok, but leaves me exposed as a target, which is why I try to always remain hidden and stealthy and attack from the shadows, etc. - that's the core role of my rogue.
Thanks everyone! Good stuff. I suppose it comes down to establishing rules with the DM... slow and tedious and fun-sucking :-/
You don't need total cover to Hide, only 3/4 cover. That's exactly why "popping out from behind cover to shoot" works. Just don't step out into the open fully and you're gucci.
In response to the OP -- the 2024 rules actually attempt to solve some of the exact questions that you have about being able to attack from behind cover, it's just not written as well as it should be. In 2014 you were pretty much forced to hand-wave it.
In 2024, it works like this:
You take the Hide action in an attempt to conceal yourself. To successfully become concealed, you must be Heavily Obscured or behind three-quarters cover or total cover AND you must be out of any enemy's line of sight.
Note: The 2024 rules have done away with the concept of every creature automatically having 360-degree vision at all times. Instead, "if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you." This means that there are moments in time when the actual Line of Sight is unblocked (such as with three-quarters cover), but one or both creatures are not looking at and/or do not immediately notice the other creature. In such situations, this will be 100% adjudicated by the DM however he sees fit for the situation.
Now, back to the procedure . . . once you are located in the appropriate location that is Heavily Obscured or behind three-quarters cover or behind total cover and are unseen by all enemies, THEN you must also successfully roll the DC 15 Stealth check while in that location to become concealed (hidden).
(Another Note here: There is a Rules as Written alternative to meeting the above requirements: "The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.")
Now, once all of the requirements have been met such that you have successfully concealed yourself, you HAVE the Invisible condition. In other words, being concealed causes you to "have" the condition. Being concealed is the trigger / requirement for you to "have" it. Note that this causes you to HAVE the condition -- it does not cause you to GET or GAIN or ACQUIRE the condition. Beginning from the moment that you pass the Stealth check to indicate that you are concealed, you "have" the condition.
It follows logically that if you are not concealed then you do not have the condition. When concealed, you have it. They go together. Again, this is not something that is permanently gained and lost. You simply have it when you are concealed. This is extremely important for the entire mechanic -- otherwise there are a ton of unintended consequences.
At this point, we do have the rather strange possibility that the enemy might then turn and look in your direction so that he now DOES have line of sight to you while you are behind three-quarters cover. But you are now Invisible to him so he still cannot see you now. Which is weird, and I believe this was sort of overlooked by the developers.
But now we come to the real idea behind including three-quarters cover in the Hide mechanic: To actually be able to attack from behind cover! That's the 2024 solution to the question from the OP. How do we attack from behind cover? Well, we cannot attack from behind full cover since there is an obstacle in the way. But we CAN attack from behind three-quarters cover by just leaning a small portion of our body out from behind cover, reaching out with our weapon, and taking the shot. So, the idea is that on the prior turn, you Hide behind Total Cover for defensive purposes. Then, on your turn, you use your movement or you just declare that you are leaning out to a three-quarters cover position and you make your attack. When you do this, you have not violated the prerequisites for being concealed as defined by the Hide action, so if you were hidden then you are still hidden / "Invisible" until your attack hits or misses. This means that you gain the benefits of being an Unseen attacker for that attack, even though you were only behind three-quarters cover and not total cover and even though the enemy might be looking right at you when you make this attack. Compare this against a situation where you did not bother to attempt to Hide in this location or you had failed your Stealth roll. Now when you "pop out" from total cover into a three-quarters cover position to make your attack and the enemy does have line of sight to your position, then the DM will probably declare that you are not actually an unseen attacker in that case.
So, can a creature Hide on the previous turn and then come out of their concealed position and run across an open field to "sneak up behind" an enemy to make a melee attack against him while out in the open and still be considered to be "Hidden" during this attack?
By the RAW, no, you cannot do that . . .
. . . EXCEPT for this pesky little rule again: "The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding." So, if your DM decides that you remain hidden while running across an open field, then you are good to go.
@PsyrenXY Yes, but at 3/4 cover, can't enemies target me (albeit with disadvantage)?
But if I'm in total cover, they cannot target me, is that right?
They could target you if it's their turn. Presumably it's not, since you're attacking. The idea is that you get back behind total cover when you're done, neh?
But if they Ready an action to shoot at you as you're popping your head up, that's a different story (though you do benefit from that cover.)
@PsyrenXY Yes, but at 3/4 cover, can't enemies target me (albeit with disadvantage)?
But if I'm in total cover, they cannot target me, is that right?
If you can shoot at them, they can shoot at you. It might be more difficult for them to shoot at you, but whatever is doing the shooting must, in some way, be exposed for you to shoot. Total Cover is 'An object that covers the whole target' while Three-Quartes cover is 'An object that covers at least three-quarters of the target' (emphasis mine).
Now, you could move after your attack to go from three-quarters back to total cover, but in between the attack and the move, you could be attacked (most likely by someone with a readied action).
Also, the three-quarter cover does not impose a Disadvantage. It is a +5 bonus to AC and Dex saving throws. However, the Sharpshooter feat ignores that.
With all of that out of the way and back to the original question; the situation is complicated. RAW states that you gain the Invisible condition when you succeed with Stealth. However, the condition ends if someone 'finds' you by making a Perception roll at a DC equal to your original Stealth roll.
As a result, if you are trying to do something silly (shoot someone before combat breaks out, run behind a pillar in a brightly lit room in full view of everyone, stealth, and immediately run back out) then the DM might provide the NPCs with sufficient bonuses that they automatically 'find' you.
On the other hand, if the scene is lit only by flickering torchlight and you are in the middle of a chaotic battle, their bonus would be less or even non-existent, depending on circumstances.
Depending on your DM you may need to be fairly tactical in how you utilize Stealth and not regard it as 'invisibility with a skill roll'.
So, can a creature Hide on the previous turn and then come out of their concealed position and run across an open field to "sneak up behind" an enemy to make a melee attack against him while out in the open and still be considered to be "Hidden" during this attack?
By the RAW, no, you cannot do that . . .
. . . EXCEPT for this pesky little rule again: "The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding." So, if your DM decides that you remain hidden while running across an open field, then you are good to go.
I guess a lot of it IS up to the DM. I would think the DM could roll some percentage dice based on the distance I have to cover and how alert the enemy is, etc.to see if the enemy happens to turn around while I am sneaking up to slit their throat (although I should point out that I'm not an assassin and almost always attack from range, hehe).
@PsyrenXY Yes, but at 3/4 cover, can't enemies target me (albeit with disadvantage)?
But if I'm in total cover, they cannot target me, is that right?
They could target you if it's their turn. Presumably it's not, since you're attacking. The idea is that you get back behind total cover when you're done, neh?
But if they Ready an action to shoot at you as you're popping your head up, that's a different story (though you do benefit from that cover.)
@PsyrenXY But even if it's their turn, they can't target me if I'm hidden with the Invisible condition, right?
And RE: a Ready Action: If they happen to know something is there (me), but they don't know where I am (because I'm hidden) and they Ready an action, the only way they could attack is AFTER I hit them and inflict damage, because that's the moment I lose my hidden/invisible condition. So they would have to get hit, take damage and then turn to find me, see me, aim and then somehow fire off a shot as a reaction, right? Seems like they should at least get disadvantage in that case or something if they're allowed to do that.
RAW states that you gain the Invisible condition when you succeed with Stealth. However, the condition ends if someone 'finds' you by making a Perception roll at a DC equal to your original Stealth roll.
But they have to be looking for me or know that something is there and they can only do that on their turn, right? Otherwise it's just their Passive Perception, right?
...if you are trying to do something silly (shoot someone before combat breaks out, run behind a pillar in a brightly lit room in full view of everyone, stealth, and immediately run back out) then the DM might provide the NPCs with sufficient bonuses that they automatically 'find' you.
On the other hand, if the scene is lit only by flickering torchlight and you are in the middle of a chaotic battle, their bonus would be less or even non-existent, depending on circumstances.
Depending on your DM you may need to be fairly tactical in how you utilize Stealth and not regard it as 'invisibility with a skill roll'.
I disagree. Shooting someone before combat breaks out by hiding is not silly. It's extremely tactical. You get Surprise advantage on initiative rolls and you get advantage on your first attack so you can Sneak Attack.
Also, slipping into the shadows or stepping behind a column or ducking behind a desk, etc. with a successful roll should be fine - that's the whole point of beefing up one's Stealth. On a success, it's assumed the enemies were engaged with the other players or distracted or thinking of something else or had their focus on something else. It's like Batman disappearing when someone looks aside and then looks back and he's gone. Now they might take an action to roll a perception check on their turn since they "know" I was there, but if they all fail, I should still get my advantage Sneak Attack on my turn when I suddenly pop up and shoot them. Obviously if 6 NPCs are actively looking for me, the odds are against me... no need to give them any bonuses.
You could also think of it as me in a fully lit room, diving for cover and then popping up randomly and taking a shot.
Yes, the circumstances can play out differently in various locations, but the DM shouldn't be buffing their NPCs with random bonuses.
RAW states that you gain the Invisible condition when you succeed with Stealth. However, the condition ends if someone 'finds' you by making a Perception roll at a DC equal to your original Stealth roll.
But they have to be looking for me or know that something is there and they can only do that on their turn, right? Otherwise it's just their Passive Perception, right?
The problem is that the 2024 stealth rules are very poorly written because they're vague and unclear, and also because for some reason, they made absolutely zero distinction between "hidden behind a bush" and "used magic to become completely transparent."
...if you are trying to do something silly (shoot someone before combat breaks out, run behind a pillar in a brightly lit room in full view of everyone, stealth, and immediately run back out) then the DM might provide the NPCs with sufficient bonuses that they automatically 'find' you.
On the other hand, if the scene is lit only by flickering torchlight and you are in the middle of a chaotic battle, their bonus would be less or even non-existent, depending on circumstances.
Depending on your DM you may need to be fairly tactical in how you utilize Stealth and not regard it as 'invisibility with a skill roll'.
I disagree. Shooting someone before combat breaks out by hiding is not silly. It's extremely tactical. You get Surprise advantage on initiative rolls and you get advantage on your first attack so you can Sneak Attack.
Also, slipping into the shadows or stepping behind a column or ducking behind a desk, etc. with a successful roll should be fine - that's the whole point of beefing up one's Stealth. On a success, it's assumed the enemies were engaged with the other players or distracted or thinking of something else or had their focus on something else. It's like Batman disappearing when someone looks aside and then looks back and he's gone. Now they might take an action to roll a perception check on their turn since they "know" I was there, but if they all fail, I should still get my advantage Sneak Attack on my turn when I suddenly pop up and shoot them. Obviously if 6 NPCs are actively looking for me, the odds are against me... no need to give them any bonuses.
You could also think of it as me in a fully lit room, diving for cover and then popping up randomly and taking a shot.
Yes, the circumstances can play out differently in various locations, but the DM shouldn't be buffing their NPCs with random bonuses.
I agree with this. Circumstances will have an impact on your ability to hide, but that's generally how stealth in combat should work.
Was this bolded statement ever not taken into consideration under the Hide action?
"With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
An enemy finding you would involve the enemy making an active perception check against the stealth check made as mentioned in the 2nd line. This, at least by my definition, means that a character will gain the benefit of the advantage on it's attack roll until after making the roll.
The Hide action requirements are only to gain the invisible condition. This condition is not broken by no longer applying the requirements because those only pertain to making the hide action. It now follows the criteria listed in the last line which by the method of seeing a creature, would require a perception check against the stealth check.
Degree of light, Cover and Obscurement must always be tracked, this isn't negociation, it's aspects of the environment that must be accounted for.
Heavily Obscured areas are created by spells, darkness, heavy fog, dense foliage or any effect the DM determine can obscure vision and hinder you when enought affected by sight to blind.
You can always be targeted when Hidden or Invisible, the DM must rule wether your location is known or if the attacker must target a space it thinks you occupy to attack at Disadvantage.
The only thing preventing targeting entirely is Total Cover, which is also DM ruling wether you can pop out to attack or must move out from behind it first, and potentially be exposed.
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Seems like attacking while hiding is a thing (see the description of the Skulker feat, Sniper benefit - it literally says "if you make an attack roll while hidden...") and it is the CORE FEATURE of the Rogue and the Rogue's Sneak Attack (or any attack from hiding really).
Lets say my Rogue stands behind something (Total Cover), successfully roles a Stealth check (is this even necessary since I'm already in Total Cover?) and gains the advantage of the Invisible condition.
Now... How do I Sneak Attack an enemy with my ranged or thrown weapons? What are the exact rules of this common event?
We use Fantasy Grounds and it won't even let me target an enemy because my line of sight is blocked. Is this just all hand waved in RAW and I just roll my Sneak Attack with advantage anyway and play it out? Am I supposed to LEAVE TOTAL COVER in order to attack? If so, what's the purpose of total cover? How are you "invisible" if you leave total cover?? Do I even need cover in order to hide???
(I've read a few other posts here about hiding and they don't really shed any light on a concrete solution).
(and yes, I understand that if my attack hits, my cover is blown (I think there are ways to maintain it) and I need to hide again and, I guess, roll another stealth check).
Is this core mechanic of one of the major classes not specified in the rules and just left to be negotiated with the DM??
If you were successfully hidden, then you leave total cover and attack, and roll with advantage. If the DM says you don't get advantage because you left total cover, point out how that literally makes Sneak Attack from range impossible, and point out how the 2024 Thief subclass's level 9 feature could not even work at all if leaving cover instantly loses your Invisible status. Therefore, RAW, you are still Invisible even when you are visible, and only lose your Hidden/Invisible status when you make an attack.
If the DM won't budge, you should stop being someone playing a ranged Rogue in that game.
Being behind Total Cover is different from when you Hide, one is a physical obstacle making a target behind it more difficult to harm, while the other is an action to become Invisible and make your location unknown. A completely opaque source of Total Cover may mean you are unseen as well though which grant similar benefits depending how DM rule it.
You don't need cover to Hide, an Heavily Obscured area can also allow you while being also out of any enemy’s line of sight;
Total Cover blocks line of effect and prevent targeting, one behind can’t be targeted directly. Hiding behind Three-Quarters Cover or within Heavily Obscured doesn't prevent targeting on the other hand.
Wether you can attack from behind Total Cover would depend if you can move enought to get a clear shot. The DM will tell, many allow it.
In a virtual table environement, you may need to move the token to be able to attack because of how it establish line of effect.
Now wether you remain hidden when you move in the open is up to DM, this aspect is heavily debated in various forums, some think you remain Invisible in plain sight and others think you are immediately found without the cover or obscurement necessary to Hide.
1) hide in spot, either total cover or 3/4 cover.
2) "pop out" up or around the corner/tree/whatever and attack with advantage.
3) re-hide, presumably. a common houserule is to give you disadvantage at hiding in the same place twice.
Alternatively, just use Steady Aim if there are no good hiding places, at the cost of not moving.
Fixed. It's precisely analoguous to a GM saying 'well I think spells are overpowered, so casters don't get them!' Sneak attack is what the rogue is about, and if someone cannot accept that it does a lot of damage, don't play with them.
Even if ... I have a rogue who is also a squire of Solamnia, and casts Booming Blade, and also Hunter's Mark, and sometimes I'm kinda ashamed of how much damage that does. But I'm the rogue: I'm literally there to hit hard. It's my job. Oh, and a bug bear. 1d8+1d8+1d6+sneak attack+weapon damage+2d6 (for .. Surprise Attack or whatever it's called).
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
The way we play it is that if you are hidden and in cover, you can make a ranged attack with advantage as long as you do not need to leave your current location to do so. This handles "popping out from behind a tree/rock" or "firing from the bushes" and all that stuff. But if you are hidden and want to move to another location that puts you out in the open, you are no longer hidden and must make a new stealth check when you are once again in cover.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Note that as Rogue you don't need Advantage to use Sneak Attack if at least one of your allies that isn't Incapacitated is within 5 feet of the target while you don’t have Disadvantage on the attack roll.
You can even more easily use it once you can Steady Aim, so Hide in't necessary for that, generally being more a defensive action to prevent locating or targeting you easily.
Thanks. Yes, I've had to point out that Sneak Attack would be impossible if I have to leave cover and become visible. Frustrating.
Thanks. I'm not sure what Heavily Obscured is - ah: darkness, opaque fog, or dense foliage.
We are in a dungeon with hard objects so I have to get behind something to get total cover. I don't want 3/4 cover because I want to be hidden so enemies can't target me.
I guess we have to start tracking every light source to see if there is darkness. There is no fog or foliage... yet. More negotiations, ugh.
Actually, attacking from darkness would be easier since I'd have line of sight and the enemy wouldn't necessarily see me.
Yes, I've had to move the token out of cover in order to attack, but I tell the DM I'm attacking from cover.
To be clear, my DM isn't a prick, it's just that we're trying to figure out the rules and it's a pain it's not clear, so we have to figure out (negotiate) all of this. I had no idea the can of worms we were getting into.
Thanks. Steady Aim is great, but doesn't keep me from being targeted by enemies. In fact, not being able to move makes me more of a target.
Haha, true. But again, the rules for this are so vague and unspecific.
And my DM isn't a jerk (well, mostly, lol)... we're just trying to figure this all out and it's extremely frustrating and takes the fun out of every encounter.
Thanks. I've usually had to use the Cunning Action to hide as a bonus action after every attack, which burns my Bonus Action every turn, ugh.
Yes, the 5' ally is nice when it happens and Steady Aim is ok, but leaves me exposed as a target, which is why I try to always remain hidden and stealthy and attack from the shadows, etc. - that's the core role of my rogue.
Thanks everyone! Good stuff. I suppose it comes down to establishing rules with the DM... slow and tedious and fun-sucking :-/
We'll get there.
You don't need total cover to Hide, only 3/4 cover. That's exactly why "popping out from behind cover to shoot" works. Just don't step out into the open fully and you're gucci.
@PsyrenXY
Yes, but at 3/4 cover, can't enemies target me (albeit with disadvantage)?
But if I'm in total cover, they cannot target me, is that right?
"Cover" is not the same as hidden. It (along with some other things) gives you the option to hide. If you are hidden, they can't target you.
And you can attack from either type of cover (otherwise, there'd be no point to hiding behind total cover).
In response to the OP -- the 2024 rules actually attempt to solve some of the exact questions that you have about being able to attack from behind cover, it's just not written as well as it should be. In 2014 you were pretty much forced to hand-wave it.
In 2024, it works like this:
You take the Hide action in an attempt to conceal yourself. To successfully become concealed, you must be Heavily Obscured or behind three-quarters cover or total cover AND you must be out of any enemy's line of sight.
Note: The 2024 rules have done away with the concept of every creature automatically having 360-degree vision at all times. Instead, "if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you." This means that there are moments in time when the actual Line of Sight is unblocked (such as with three-quarters cover), but one or both creatures are not looking at and/or do not immediately notice the other creature. In such situations, this will be 100% adjudicated by the DM however he sees fit for the situation.
Now, back to the procedure . . . once you are located in the appropriate location that is Heavily Obscured or behind three-quarters cover or behind total cover and are unseen by all enemies, THEN you must also successfully roll the DC 15 Stealth check while in that location to become concealed (hidden).
(Another Note here: There is a Rules as Written alternative to meeting the above requirements: "The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding.")
Now, once all of the requirements have been met such that you have successfully concealed yourself, you HAVE the Invisible condition. In other words, being concealed causes you to "have" the condition. Being concealed is the trigger / requirement for you to "have" it. Note that this causes you to HAVE the condition -- it does not cause you to GET or GAIN or ACQUIRE the condition. Beginning from the moment that you pass the Stealth check to indicate that you are concealed, you "have" the condition.
It follows logically that if you are not concealed then you do not have the condition. When concealed, you have it. They go together. Again, this is not something that is permanently gained and lost. You simply have it when you are concealed. This is extremely important for the entire mechanic -- otherwise there are a ton of unintended consequences.
At this point, we do have the rather strange possibility that the enemy might then turn and look in your direction so that he now DOES have line of sight to you while you are behind three-quarters cover. But you are now Invisible to him so he still cannot see you now. Which is weird, and I believe this was sort of overlooked by the developers.
But now we come to the real idea behind including three-quarters cover in the Hide mechanic: To actually be able to attack from behind cover! That's the 2024 solution to the question from the OP. How do we attack from behind cover? Well, we cannot attack from behind full cover since there is an obstacle in the way. But we CAN attack from behind three-quarters cover by just leaning a small portion of our body out from behind cover, reaching out with our weapon, and taking the shot. So, the idea is that on the prior turn, you Hide behind Total Cover for defensive purposes. Then, on your turn, you use your movement or you just declare that you are leaning out to a three-quarters cover position and you make your attack. When you do this, you have not violated the prerequisites for being concealed as defined by the Hide action, so if you were hidden then you are still hidden / "Invisible" until your attack hits or misses. This means that you gain the benefits of being an Unseen attacker for that attack, even though you were only behind three-quarters cover and not total cover and even though the enemy might be looking right at you when you make this attack. Compare this against a situation where you did not bother to attempt to Hide in this location or you had failed your Stealth roll. Now when you "pop out" from total cover into a three-quarters cover position to make your attack and the enemy does have line of sight to your position, then the DM will probably declare that you are not actually an unseen attacker in that case.
So, can a creature Hide on the previous turn and then come out of their concealed position and run across an open field to "sneak up behind" an enemy to make a melee attack against him while out in the open and still be considered to be "Hidden" during this attack?
By the RAW, no, you cannot do that . . .
. . . EXCEPT for this pesky little rule again: "The Dungeon Master decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding." So, if your DM decides that you remain hidden while running across an open field, then you are good to go.
They could target you if it's their turn. Presumably it's not, since you're attacking. The idea is that you get back behind total cover when you're done, neh?
But if they Ready an action to shoot at you as you're popping your head up, that's a different story (though you do benefit from that cover.)
If you can shoot at them, they can shoot at you. It might be more difficult for them to shoot at you, but whatever is doing the shooting must, in some way, be exposed for you to shoot. Total Cover is 'An object that covers the whole target' while Three-Quartes cover is 'An object that covers at least three-quarters of the target' (emphasis mine).
Now, you could move after your attack to go from three-quarters back to total cover, but in between the attack and the move, you could be attacked (most likely by someone with a readied action).
Also, the three-quarter cover does not impose a Disadvantage. It is a +5 bonus to AC and Dex saving throws. However, the Sharpshooter feat ignores that.
With all of that out of the way and back to the original question; the situation is complicated. RAW states that you gain the Invisible condition when you succeed with Stealth. However, the condition ends if someone 'finds' you by making a Perception roll at a DC equal to your original Stealth roll.
As a result, if you are trying to do something silly (shoot someone before combat breaks out, run behind a pillar in a brightly lit room in full view of everyone, stealth, and immediately run back out) then the DM might provide the NPCs with sufficient bonuses that they automatically 'find' you.
On the other hand, if the scene is lit only by flickering torchlight and you are in the middle of a chaotic battle, their bonus would be less or even non-existent, depending on circumstances.
Depending on your DM you may need to be fairly tactical in how you utilize Stealth and not regard it as 'invisibility with a skill roll'.
@up2ng This is a pretty good summary explanation.
I guess a lot of it IS up to the DM. I would think the DM could roll some percentage dice based on the distance I have to cover and how alert the enemy is, etc.to see if the enemy happens to turn around while I am sneaking up to slit their throat (although I should point out that I'm not an assassin and almost always attack from range, hehe).
@PsyrenXY But even if it's their turn, they can't target me if I'm hidden with the Invisible condition, right?
And RE: a Ready Action: If they happen to know something is there (me), but they don't know where I am (because I'm hidden) and they Ready an action, the only way they could attack is AFTER I hit them and inflict damage, because that's the moment I lose my hidden/invisible condition. So they would have to get hit, take damage and then turn to find me, see me, aim and then somehow fire off a shot as a reaction, right? Seems like they should at least get disadvantage in that case or something if they're allowed to do that.
Not if I'm hidden/invisible though, right? Until I actually hit them and lose that condition.
But they have to be looking for me or know that something is there and they can only do that on their turn, right? Otherwise it's just their Passive Perception, right?
I disagree. Shooting someone before combat breaks out by hiding is not silly. It's extremely tactical. You get Surprise advantage on initiative rolls and you get advantage on your first attack so you can Sneak Attack.
Also, slipping into the shadows or stepping behind a column or ducking behind a desk, etc. with a successful roll should be fine - that's the whole point of beefing up one's Stealth. On a success, it's assumed the enemies were engaged with the other players or distracted or thinking of something else or had their focus on something else. It's like Batman disappearing when someone looks aside and then looks back and he's gone. Now they might take an action to roll a perception check on their turn since they "know" I was there, but if they all fail, I should still get my advantage Sneak Attack on my turn when I suddenly pop up and shoot them. Obviously if 6 NPCs are actively looking for me, the odds are against me... no need to give them any bonuses.
You could also think of it as me in a fully lit room, diving for cover and then popping up randomly and taking a shot.
Yes, the circumstances can play out differently in various locations, but the DM shouldn't be buffing their NPCs with random bonuses.
Unless you have the Skulker feat, as soon as your attack on an enemy is resolved, you lose Hidden/Invisible.
The problem is that the 2024 stealth rules are very poorly written because they're vague and unclear, and also because for some reason, they made absolutely zero distinction between "hidden behind a bush" and "used magic to become completely transparent."
I agree with this. Circumstances will have an impact on your ability to hide, but that's generally how stealth in combat should work.
Was this bolded statement ever not taken into consideration under the Hide action?
"With the Hide action, you try to conceal yourself. To do so, you must succeed on a DC 15 Dexterity (Stealth) check while you’re Heavily Obscured or behind Three-Quarters Cover or Total Cover, and you must be out of any enemy’s line of sight; if you can see a creature, you can discern whether it can see you.
On a successful check, you have the Invisible condition. Make note of your check’s total, which is the DC for a creature to find you with a Wisdom (Perception) check.
The condition ends on you immediately after any of the following occurs: you make a sound louder than a whisper, an enemy finds you, you make an attack roll, or you cast a spell with a Verbal component."
An enemy finding you would involve the enemy making an active perception check against the stealth check made as mentioned in the 2nd line. This, at least by my definition, means that a character will gain the benefit of the advantage on it's attack roll until after making the roll.
The Hide action requirements are only to gain the invisible condition. This condition is not broken by no longer applying the requirements because those only pertain to making the hide action. It now follows the criteria listed in the last line which by the method of seeing a creature, would require a perception check against the stealth check.
Degree of light, Cover and Obscurement must always be tracked, this isn't negociation, it's aspects of the environment that must be accounted for.
Heavily Obscured areas are created by spells, darkness, heavy fog, dense foliage or any effect the DM determine can obscure vision and hinder you when enought affected by sight to blind.
You can always be targeted when Hidden or Invisible, the DM must rule wether your location is known or if the attacker must target a space it thinks you occupy to attack at Disadvantage.
The only thing preventing targeting entirely is Total Cover, which is also DM ruling wether you can pop out to attack or must move out from behind it first, and potentially be exposed.