The fundamental problem, I think, is labeling something as Difficult Terrain when the general rules are supposed to say you can't move through it at all. That makes no sense, especially if every feature or ability that provides an exception is going to specify those spaces are Difficult Terrain anyway
But they aren't doing that, that's the whole point. They don't want to need to repeat the "it's difficult terrain to move through (some) creatures" in every feature that allows you to do it, so they made it a general rule instead.
Rogue: I bonus action disengage and go through the wizard's bodyguards to get to him DM: Wait, can you do that? (looks at Glossary, sees that enemy spaces are Difficult Terrain) Yeah, I guess so
And again, why are you looking for the answer in the wrong section?
The fundamental problem, I think, is labeling something as Difficult Terrain when the general rules are supposed to say you can't move through it at all. That makes no sense, especially if every feature or ability that provides an exception is going to specify those spaces are Difficult Terrain anyway
But they aren't doing that, that's the whole point. They don't want to need to repeat the "it's difficult terrain to move through (some) creatures" in every feature that allows you to do it, so they made it a general rule instead.
And yet, they did
Partially Incorporeal. You can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain. If you end your turn in such a space, you are shunted to the last unoccupied space you were in.
Incorporeal Movement. The ghost can move through other creatures and objects as if they were Difficult Terrain. It takes 5 (1d10) Force damage if it ends its turn inside an object.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The fundamental problem, I think, is labeling something as Difficult Terrain when the general rules are supposed to say you can't move through it at all. That makes no sense, especially if every feature or ability that provides an exception is going to specify those spaces are Difficult Terrain anyway
But they aren't doing that, that's the whole point. They don't want to need to repeat the "it's difficult terrain to move through (some) creatures" in every feature that allows you to do it, so they made it a general rule instead.
Rogue: I bonus action disengage and go through the wizard's bodyguards to get to him DM: Wait, can you do that? (looks at Glossary, sees that enemy spaces are Difficult Terrain) Yeah, I guess so
And again, why are you looking for the answer in the wrong section?
Nowhere, anywhere, in the 2024 rules does it say that you cannot move through the space of a hostile creature. WoTC changed the rules, and removed the reference to hostile creatures everywhere in the PHB that they had existed in the 2014 edition with relation to movement and difficult terrain. Now, moving through a hostile creature's space, according to the 2024 rules, seemingly makes the space Difficult Terrain. Which makes Partially Incorporeal and Incorporeal Movementvery puzzling.
Partially Incorporeal. You can move through occupied spaces as if they were Difficult Terrain. If you end your turn in such a space, you are shunted to the last unoccupied space you were in.
Incorporeal Movement. The ghost can move through other creatures and objects as if they were Difficult Terrain. It takes 5 (1d10) Force damage if it ends its turn inside an object.
Those features allows you to move through the space of things that aren't creatures though and thus they need to specify how much movement it costs.
The fundamental problem, I think, is labeling something as Difficult Terrain when the general rules are supposed to say you can't move through it at all. That makes no sense, especially if every feature or ability that provides an exception is going to specify those spaces are Difficult Terrain anyway
But they aren't doing that, that's the whole point. They don't want to need to repeat the "it's difficult terrain to move through (some) creatures" in every feature that allows you to do it, so they made it a general rule instead.
Rogue: I bonus action disengage and go through the wizard's bodyguards to get to him DM: Wait, can you do that? (looks at Glossary, sees that enemy spaces are Difficult Terrain) Yeah, I guess so
And again, why are you looking for the answer in the wrong section?
Nowhere, anywhere, in the 2024 rules does it say that you cannot move through the space of a hostile creature. [...]
To me, the next paragraph reads as you can pass through the space of an ally, but not through the space of a non-ally:
During your move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition (see the rules glossary), a Tiny creature, or a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller than you.
Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you unless that creature is Tiny or your ally.
To me, the next paragraph reads as you can pass through the space of an ally, but not through the space of a non-ally:
During your move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition (see the rules glossary), a Tiny creature, or a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller than you.
Another creature’s space is Difficult Terrain for you unless that creature is Tiny or your ally.
The highlighted part is an assumption. A reasonable one, but still an assumption that is not stated in the rules -- and an assumption which gets undermined by the very next sentence, which provides rules for doing the thing you assume you can't do
The list of spaces you can move through also doesn't include empty spaces adjacent to creatures, by the way, in a section of the rules called "Moving around Other Creatures". If the list of spaces you can move through is intended to be definitive, why do you assume you can move through one (adjacent but empty) but not the other (occupied by non-ally)?
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I wish there was a way to get in touch with WoTC to someone who will LISTEN and issue a ruling. It used to be that you could contact Jeremy Crawford through Twitter (now X) and get at least a reaosnable interpretation if not a definitive one. But, that avenue doesn't exist any more. All of the contacts I've found for WoTC are for "product support" - reporting defective products and the like. Nothing about rules clarifications, or a place to ask for them. If someone knows of a way to get in touch with WoTC for a ruling, please post a link.
The list of spaces you can move through also doesn't include empty spaces adjacent to creatures, by the way, in a section of the rules called "Moving around Other Creatures". If the list of spaces you can move through is intended to be definitive, why do you assume you can move through one (adjacent but empty) but not the other (occupied by non-ally)?
Well, this is already covered in the movement rules in the previous paragraphs. You have to read the whole section together as a series of concepts where the next one being presented builds upon the framework that is previously established.
At the beginning of the "Movement and Position" section, they begin by explaining the basic mechanic of how by default you can move a distance equal to your speed. This is understood to be when things are unoccupied and wide open, and nothing is slowing you down, so moving through those types of spaces are covered by those descriptions already. Then, the rules talk about how the mechanics are altered when moving through spaces that contain some obstacles but are not fully occupied. This is difficult terrain, and there are examples of such terrain listed in the Glossary (which does include a misleading entry, I agree that some editing to that Glossary entry would be welcome).
Now that moving through "unoccupied" spaces has been explained, the section on "Moving around Other Creatures" finally addresses the possibility of moving through occupied spaces.
When that section begins with:
During your move, you can pass through the space of an ally, a creature that has the Incapacitated condition (see the rules glossary), a Tiny creature, or a creature that is two sizes larger or smaller than you.
That rule is written in a style where they are explaining what you can do during your move. If it's not listed there, then you cannot do it. This all comes right after the explanation that creatures occupy space on a map. So, the implication is that we have now transitioned from talking about moving through unoccupied spaces to talking about the possibility of moving through occupied spaces, and this rule explains which occupied spaces you can move through. The (unfortunately not explicit) assumption is that by default you cannot move through occupied spaces. So, this begins with the exceptions to that -- explaining certain types of occupied spaces which involve being occupied by certain categories of creatures which you are allowed to move through, even though normally you cannot move through an occupied space.
Lastly, the rules break this concept down into a couple of subcategories -- of the spaces that are occupied by creatures that you are allowed to move through . . . some of those are treated as uninhibited movement, and some of those are treated as difficult terrain.
I do agree that there is not enough explicitly written on these topics. Too much "connecting the dots" is required which is unlikely to happen from casual players who are just trying to look up the rule for whether or not you can move through an enemy space. As such, these sections should be rewritten via errata for clarity.
You can move through the space of an enemy only if that enemy (A) has the Incapacitated condition, (B) is a Tiny creature, or (C) is at least two sizes larger or smaller than you. The Prone condition doesn’t override this.
During their adventures, player characters meet many different people and face some monsters that would rather talk than fight. In those situations, it’s time for social interaction, which takes many forms. For example, you might try to convince a burglar to confess to wrongdoing or try to flatter a guard. The Dungeon Master assumes the roles of any nonplayer characters who are participating.
An NPC’s attitude toward your character is Friendly, Indifferent, or Hostile, as defined in the rules glossary. Friendly NPCs are predisposed to help, and Hostile ones are inclined to hinder.
Social interactions progress in two ways: through roleplaying and ability checks.
Magic isn't mentioned as an option, and (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) I can't find anything elsewhere in the rules that carves out that specific exception. So per this strict "if it doesn't explicitly say you can do it, you can't" theory of RAW, you can't cast a spell like suggestion to get that burglar to confess, because it's neither RP nor involves an ability check
Casting a spell like suggestion is not unnoticable, in fact it's the opposite, it automatically breaks Hiding and most types of Invisibility meaning it is very much noticable. So if you cast a spell in a social situation, the DM can and should in most cases initiate combat because you have taken a very obvious hostile action against someone. If the target succeeds the save they should attack you, and if anyone witnesses you do it they should become hostile and/or summon guards to arrest you. So yes in general casting a spell is incompatible with social situations.
Nowhere, anywhere, in the 2024 rules does it say that you cannot move through the space of a hostile creature.
Nowhere, anywhere, in the 2024 rules does it say that you cannot move through the space of a Wall of Ice. The Difficult Terrain rules specify that square containing ice is Difficult Terrain, and the spell itself doesn't say anything about the wall blocking movement through it, it only specifies that a creature takes damage if they move through the sheet of cold air that remains after the wall is destroyed.
Therefore by your logic it makes no sense to destroy the wall of ice, because anyone can already move through the wall of ice as if it was difficult terrain without taking any damage and destroying it just causing you to now take damage.
And yet anyone with even an ounce of common sense would interpret a wall of ice as blocking movement through it.
I strongly disagree with requiring the rules to state things that are obvious common sense. The rules do not state that creatures cannot fly unless they have a fly speed, but it is obvious that that is the case. Similarly a creature cannot move through a wall, column, statue, window, spell effect or other object or creature that occupies a space unless the rules say otherwise.
If you see a toilet stall or a photo booth or a library study room that says "occupied" on the door, do you think you can go into it?
I wish there was a way to get in touch with WoTC to someone who will LISTEN and issue a ruling. It used to be that you could contact Jeremy Crawford through Twitter (now X) and get at least a reaosnable interpretation if not a definitive one. But, that avenue doesn't exist any more. All of the contacts I've found for WoTC are for "product support" - reporting defective products and the like. Nothing about rules clarifications, or a place to ask for them. If someone knows of a way to get in touch with WoTC for a ruling, please post a link.
This issue BEGS for a clarification.
It does not, it's obvious to anyone with common sense how it is supposed to work, and TBH it doesn't make that much difference in play either way so if a DM chooses to interpret it differently it doesn't really matter. Why would WotC want to waste the time of one of their employees arguing with people on social media who try to nitpick rules?
During their adventures, player characters meet many different people and face some monsters that would rather talk than fight. In those situations, it’s time for social interaction, which takes many forms. For example, you might try to convince a burglar to confess to wrongdoing or try to flatter a guard. The Dungeon Master assumes the roles of any nonplayer characters who are participating.
An NPC’s attitude toward your character is Friendly, Indifferent, or Hostile, as defined in the rules glossary. Friendly NPCs are predisposed to help, and Hostile ones are inclined to hinder.
Social interactions progress in two ways: through roleplaying and ability checks.
Magic isn't mentioned as an option, and (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) I can't find anything elsewhere in the rules that carves out that specific exception. So per this strict "if it doesn't explicitly say you can do it, you can't" theory of RAW, you can't cast a spell like suggestion to get that burglar to confess, because it's neither RP nor involves an ability check
Casting a spell like suggestion is not unnoticable, in fact it's the opposite, it automatically breaks Hiding and most types of Invisibility meaning it is very much noticable. So if you cast a spell in a social situation, the DM can and should in most cases initiate combat because you have taken a very obvious hostile action against someone. If the target succeeds the save they should attack you, and if anyone witnesses you do it they should become hostile and/or summon guards to arrest you. So yes in general casting a spell is incompatible with social situations.
None of which has much to do with trying to get a confession out of a burglar, but OK
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
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But they aren't doing that, that's the whole point. They don't want to need to repeat the "it's difficult terrain to move through (some) creatures" in every feature that allows you to do it, so they made it a general rule instead.
And again, why are you looking for the answer in the wrong section?
And yet, they did
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
Nowhere, anywhere, in the 2024 rules does it say that you cannot move through the space of a hostile creature. WoTC changed the rules, and removed the reference to hostile creatures everywhere in the PHB that they had existed in the 2014 edition with relation to movement and difficult terrain. Now, moving through a hostile creature's space, according to the 2024 rules, seemingly makes the space Difficult Terrain. Which makes Partially Incorporeal and Incorporeal Movement very puzzling.
Those features allows you to move through the space of things that aren't creatures though and thus they need to specify how much movement it costs.
To me, the next paragraph reads as you can pass through the space of an ally, but not through the space of a non-ally:
The highlighted part is an assumption. A reasonable one, but still an assumption that is not stated in the rules -- and an assumption which gets undermined by the very next sentence, which provides rules for doing the thing you assume you can't do
The list of spaces you can move through also doesn't include empty spaces adjacent to creatures, by the way, in a section of the rules called "Moving around Other Creatures". If the list of spaces you can move through is intended to be definitive, why do you assume you can move through one (adjacent but empty) but not the other (occupied by non-ally)?
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
@AntonSirius I agree it's an assumption. And I wouldn't rule out an errata to update that text.
I wish there was a way to get in touch with WoTC to someone who will LISTEN and issue a ruling. It used to be that you could contact Jeremy Crawford through Twitter (now X) and get at least a reaosnable interpretation if not a definitive one. But, that avenue doesn't exist any more. All of the contacts I've found for WoTC are for "product support" - reporting defective products and the like. Nothing about rules clarifications, or a place to ask for them. If someone knows of a way to get in touch with WoTC for a ruling, please post a link.
This issue BEGS for a clarification.
Well, this is already covered in the movement rules in the previous paragraphs. You have to read the whole section together as a series of concepts where the next one being presented builds upon the framework that is previously established.
At the beginning of the "Movement and Position" section, they begin by explaining the basic mechanic of how by default you can move a distance equal to your speed. This is understood to be when things are unoccupied and wide open, and nothing is slowing you down, so moving through those types of spaces are covered by those descriptions already. Then, the rules talk about how the mechanics are altered when moving through spaces that contain some obstacles but are not fully occupied. This is difficult terrain, and there are examples of such terrain listed in the Glossary (which does include a misleading entry, I agree that some editing to that Glossary entry would be welcome).
Now that moving through "unoccupied" spaces has been explained, the section on "Moving around Other Creatures" finally addresses the possibility of moving through occupied spaces.
When that section begins with:
That rule is written in a style where they are explaining what you can do during your move. If it's not listed there, then you cannot do it. This all comes right after the explanation that creatures occupy space on a map. So, the implication is that we have now transitioned from talking about moving through unoccupied spaces to talking about the possibility of moving through occupied spaces, and this rule explains which occupied spaces you can move through. The (unfortunately not explicit) assumption is that by default you cannot move through occupied spaces. So, this begins with the exceptions to that -- explaining certain types of occupied spaces which involve being occupied by certain categories of creatures which you are allowed to move through, even though normally you cannot move through an occupied space.
Lastly, the rules break this concept down into a couple of subcategories -- of the spaces that are occupied by creatures that you are allowed to move through . . . some of those are treated as uninhibited movement, and some of those are treated as difficult terrain.
I do agree that there is not enough explicitly written on these topics. Too much "connecting the dots" is required which is unlikely to happen from casual players who are just trying to look up the rule for whether or not you can move through an enemy space. As such, these sections should be rewritten via errata for clarity.
Related to this discussion:
Casting a spell like suggestion is not unnoticable, in fact it's the opposite, it automatically breaks Hiding and most types of Invisibility meaning it is very much noticable. So if you cast a spell in a social situation, the DM can and should in most cases initiate combat because you have taken a very obvious hostile action against someone. If the target succeeds the save they should attack you, and if anyone witnesses you do it they should become hostile and/or summon guards to arrest you. So yes in general casting a spell is incompatible with social situations.
Nowhere, anywhere, in the 2024 rules does it say that you cannot move through the space of a Wall of Ice. The Difficult Terrain rules specify that square containing ice is Difficult Terrain, and the spell itself doesn't say anything about the wall blocking movement through it, it only specifies that a creature takes damage if they move through the sheet of cold air that remains after the wall is destroyed.
Therefore by your logic it makes no sense to destroy the wall of ice, because anyone can already move through the wall of ice as if it was difficult terrain without taking any damage and destroying it just causing you to now take damage.
And yet anyone with even an ounce of common sense would interpret a wall of ice as blocking movement through it.
I strongly disagree with requiring the rules to state things that are obvious common sense. The rules do not state that creatures cannot fly unless they have a fly speed, but it is obvious that that is the case. Similarly a creature cannot move through a wall, column, statue, window, spell effect or other object or creature that occupies a space unless the rules say otherwise.
If you see a toilet stall or a photo booth or a library study room that says "occupied" on the door, do you think you can go into it?
It does not, it's obvious to anyone with common sense how it is supposed to work, and TBH it doesn't make that much difference in play either way so if a DM chooses to interpret it differently it doesn't really matter. Why would WotC want to waste the time of one of their employees arguing with people on social media who try to nitpick rules?
None of which has much to do with trying to get a confession out of a burglar, but OK
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)