It's an inevitable result of D&D's quite poor design, featuring such blunders as binary success and save or lose effects. Without leaving the system, the only alternative is arbitrarily high saving throws, spell resistance, or immunities, which are really all the same thing - your power fails to work, you waste your turn, and you don't get to have fun.
There is no way for a player to spend resources to overcome a foe's defenses, outside of niche, weak options like the lucky feat, that you have to specifically choose at character creation.
There are no ablative defenses. You can't reduce an enemy's AC or saves with attacks or powers, outside of, again, a handful of specific spells.
Combat stunts, when they exist at all, are a joke, and are only viable for those characters who invest an unreasonable amount of resources into being good at them, crippling their effectiveness at anything else.
The most useful spells in the game are those that remove one or more creatures from play instantly when successful, and do nothing if saved. This ensures that at least one person won't have fun when these spells are cast, and the system design incentivizes players and GMs to use only these spells, since almost anything else is a waste of an action.
There are systems that solve all of these problems.
There is a very simple way for, as you say, "...a player to spend resources to overcome a foe's defenses..." Just don't use save or suck spells. The majority of damage spells do half damage on a save, so whatever happens, you will still be doing significant damage. That is using spell slots to do damage regardless of defenses.
There is a very simple way for, as you say, "...a player to spend resources to overcome a foe's defenses..." Just don't use save or suck spells. The majority of damage spells do half damage on a save, so whatever happens, you will still be doing significant damage. That is using spell slots to do damage regardless of defenses.
People resist using damaging spells against bosses because spellcaster damage vs single targets is mostly terrible. To some degree that's probably by design, as it gives martial characters a distinctive 'boss slayer' role, but it does put this obligation on the DM to make sure that the high profile fights have a wide enough range of challenges to make everyone feel valuable (video games tend to solve this by having adds to boss fight that need to be controlled or blown up).
There is a very simple way for, as you say, "...a player to spend resources to overcome a foe's defenses..." Just don't use save or suck spells. The majority of damage spells do half damage on a save, so whatever happens, you will still be doing significant damage. That is using spell slots to do damage regardless of defenses.
People resist using damaging spells against bosses because spellcaster damage vs single targets is mostly terrible. To some degree that's probably by design, as it gives martial characters a distinctive 'boss slayer' role, but it does put this obligation on the DM to make sure that the high profile fights have a wide enough range of challenges to make everyone feel valuable (video games tend to solve this by having adds to boss fight that need to be controlled or blown up).
There is a very simple way for, as you say, "...a player to spend resources to overcome a foe's defenses..." Just don't use save or suck spells. The majority of damage spells do half damage on a save, so whatever happens, you will still be doing significant damage. That is using spell slots to do damage regardless of defenses.
People resist using damaging spells against bosses because spellcaster damage vs single targets is mostly terrible. To some degree that's probably by design, as it gives martial characters a distinctive 'boss slayer' role, but it does put this obligation on the DM to make sure that the high profile fights have a wide enough range of challenges to make everyone feel valuable (video games tend to solve this by having adds to boss fight that need to be controlled or blown up).
Guaranteed 100/12D12 damage is pretty powerful. Disintegrate is 106.5 average damage if upcasted to level 9, though admittedly it is all avoided with a save. There's also tsunami, and earthquake could be pretty devastating in a city.
Guaranteed 100/12D12 damage is pretty powerful. Disintegrate is 106.5 average damage if upcasted to level 9, though admittedly it is all avoided with a save. There's also tsunami, and earthquake could be pretty devastating in a city.
By the time you are tossing 9th level spells a martial is dishing out piles of damage every round and power word kill is only 78 damage if they aren't under 100, which lol why don't they just have it do 100 damage no save. Tsunami and earthquake are great spells, but not great single target damage. But hey if you want to wipe out an army those are good choices.
Guaranteed 100/12D12 damage is pretty powerful. Disintegrate is 106.5 average damage if upcasted to level 9, though admittedly it is all avoided with a save. There's also tsunami, and earthquake could be pretty devastating in a city.
By the time you are tossing 9th level spells a martial is dishing out piles of damage every round and power word kill is only 78 damage if they aren't under 100, which lol why don't they just have it do 100 damage no save. Tsunami and earthquake are great spells, but not great single target damage. But hey if you want to wipe out an army those are good choices.
By my (probably terrible) estimates, a martial will be doing less than 50 average dpr, not accounting for magic items, at level 20. 12D12 might not sound amazing, but that is automatic damage. Also, if you can get them off, tsunami and earthquake both do considerable damage and can force many saves.
power word kill is only 78 damage if they aren't under 100, which lol why don't they just have it do 100 damage no save
Because there are umpteen features and abilities in the game that trigger on going to 0 hp, which the wording on PWK circumvents
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
By my (probably terrible) estimates, a martial will be doing less than 50 average dpr, not accounting for magic items, at level 20.
The idea that a level 20 doesn't have a magic weapon is kind of laughable. However, even without that
Berserker Barbarian, Level 20; Str 25, great weapon mastery, boon of combat prowess, other features irrelevant. Target assumed AC 22
Attack 1: using improved brutal strike, attack bonus is +13, without advantage. 100% to hit (60% we hit without needing combat prowess), damage 2d6+7(str)+6(PB)+4(rage)+2d10(IBS)+4d6(frenzy) = 49. 5% chance we crit for another 32 (+1.6 damage). Oh, and we're applying status effects.
Attack 2: using reckless attack, hit chance would be 84%, but because we might have combat prowess left over, actual hit probability is 93.6%. Damage on a hit is 24, but miss chance drops that to 22.5. 9.75% chance we critical hit for another 7, for 23
Bonus Action: 14% chance Hew lets us make an attack. This attack doesn't add PB to damage and is only about 90% to hit, for another 2 damage.
Expected damage, no magic items: 75. Magic items can increase this substantially.
Champion Fighter, Level 20; Str 21, great weapon fighting and mastery, boon of combat prowess, other features irrelevant. Target assumed AC 22 (50% to hit)
When making 4 attacks, normally we would only hit with two. However, boon of combat prowess will turn the first miss into a hit, and heroic warrior has a 50% chance to turn the second hit, and if we manage to miss studied attacks comes into play, so expected hits per attack action is about 3.5, including 0.6 critical hits. If we're using a maul and the crusher feat . Each hit does 2d6(w/GWM)+11 (19) (66.5 dpr), critical hits add another 4.8 damage. We also have a 48% chance to get an extra attack from Hew (which might trigger crusher or slasher, if we took those feats) for another 3.2 dpr, total 74.5 dpr. Oh, and action surge exists and we can use it 2x per short rest.
And all that is with no magic items and an AC 22 target. With realistic weapons it's trivially possible to exceed 100 dpr.
By my (probably terrible) estimates, a martial will be doing less than 50 average dpr, not accounting for magic items, at level 20.
The idea that a level 20 doesn't have a magic weapon is kind of laughable. However, even without that
Berserker Barbarian, Level 20; Str 25, great weapon mastery, boon of combat prowess, other features irrelevant. Target assumed AC 22
Attack 1: using improved brutal strike, attack bonus is +13, without advantage. 100% to hit (60% we hit without needing combat prowess), damage 2d6+7(str)+6(PB)+4(rage)+2d10(IBS)+4d6(frenzy) = 49. 5% chance we crit for another 32 (+1.6 damage). Oh, and we're applying status effects.
Attack 2: using reckless attack, hit chance would be 84%, but because we might have combat prowess left over, actual hit probability is 93.6%. Damage on a hit is 24, but miss chance drops that to 22.5. 9.75% chance we critical hit for another 7, for 23
Bonus Action: 14% chance Hew lets us make an attack. This attack doesn't add PB to damage and is only about 90% to hit, for another 2 damage.
Expected damage, no magic items: 75. Magic items can increase this substantially.
Champion Fighter, Level 20; Str 21, great weapon fighting and mastery, boon of combat prowess, other features irrelevant. Target assumed AC 22 (50% to hit)
When making 4 attacks, normally we would only hit with two. However, boon of combat prowess will turn the first miss into a hit, and heroic warrior has a 50% chance to turn the second hit, and if we manage to miss studied attacks comes into play, so expected hits per attack action is about 3.5, including 0.6 critical hits. If we're using a maul and the crusher feat . Each hit does 2d6(w/GWM)+11 (19) (66.5 dpr), critical hits add another 4.8 damage. We also have a 48% chance to get an extra attack from Hew (which might trigger crusher or slasher, if we took those feats) for another 3.2 dpr, total 74.5 dpr. Oh, and action surge exists and we can use it 2x per short rest.
And all that is with no magic items and an AC 22 target. With realistic weapons it's trivially possible to exceed 100 dpr.
Adding to this a level 20 devotion paladin can get a 20 in strength, 20 charisma, great weapon master, and the boon of combat prowess. This gives them a +16 to hit when using their sacred weapon. If you use divine smite when you use combat prowess or crit on the first attack or when you hit on the second attack you guarantee that you will divine smite and hit at least once. If you follow that set up, you have a 94% chance to hit twice on a turn and always uses divine smite even if you only hit once. This doesn't add weapon masteries or factor in undead and fiends with divine smite. Against that same 22 AC your DPR using 4th level smites is 71.43, 5th level is 76.31. You would have 2 turns of the 5th level DPR and 3 turns of the 4th level DPR. Math shown below.
By my (probably terrible) estimates, a martial will be doing less than 50 average dpr, not accounting for magic items, at level 20.
The idea that a level 20 doesn't have a magic weapon is kind of laughable. However, even without that
Berserker Barbarian, Level 20; Str 25, great weapon mastery, boon of combat prowess, other features irrelevant. Target assumed AC 22
Attack 1: using improved brutal strike, attack bonus is +13, without advantage. 100% to hit (60% we hit without needing combat prowess), damage 2d6+7(str)+6(PB)+4(rage)+2d10(IBS)+4d6(frenzy) = 49. 5% chance we crit for another 32 (+1.6 damage). Oh, and we're applying status effects.
Attack 2: using reckless attack, hit chance would be 84%, but because we might have combat prowess left over, actual hit probability is 93.6%. Damage on a hit is 24, but miss chance drops that to 22.5. 9.75% chance we critical hit for another 7, for 23
Bonus Action: 14% chance Hew lets us make an attack. This attack doesn't add PB to damage and is only about 90% to hit, for another 2 damage.
Expected damage, no magic items: 75. Magic items can increase this substantially.
Champion Fighter, Level 20; Str 21, great weapon fighting and mastery, boon of combat prowess, other features irrelevant. Target assumed AC 22 (50% to hit)
When making 4 attacks, normally we would only hit with two. However, boon of combat prowess will turn the first miss into a hit, and heroic warrior has a 50% chance to turn the second hit, and if we manage to miss studied attacks comes into play, so expected hits per attack action is about 3.5, including 0.6 critical hits. If we're using a maul and the crusher feat . Each hit does 2d6(w/GWM)+11 (19) (66.5 dpr), critical hits add another 4.8 damage. We also have a 48% chance to get an extra attack from Hew (which might trigger crusher or slasher, if we took those feats) for another 3.2 dpr, total 74.5 dpr. Oh, and action surge exists and we can use it 2x per short rest.
And all that is with no magic items and an AC 22 target. With realistic weapons it's trivially possible to exceed 100 dpr.
How in the world does the barbarian have a 49.5% chance to crit?
How in the world does the barbarian have a 49.5% chance to crit?
Sorry, that's just bad layout. 49 damage, 5% chance to crit.
Got it. Well, I did say my estimate was probably terrible.
I think most martials can hit about 50 DPR without magic items and some minimal optimization. A non gish spellcaster will probably struggle to keep with single target DPR of martials. Single target DPR is not usually the role of a spellcaster. The problem that OP is bringing up isn't really about legendary resistance but that when a monster makes a save against control spells nothing happens. Legendary resistance only makes that scenario guaranteed to happen if you use control effects on them. If people don't have different strategies for enemies resistant to control effects then that's poor planning. If anything lower tier monsters should have a weaker form of legendary resistance to encourage players to develop different strategies.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
There is a very simple way for, as you say, "...a player to spend resources to overcome a foe's defenses..." Just don't use save or suck spells. The majority of damage spells do half damage on a save, so whatever happens, you will still be doing significant damage. That is using spell slots to do damage regardless of defenses.
People resist using damaging spells against bosses because spellcaster damage vs single targets is mostly terrible. To some degree that's probably by design, as it gives martial characters a distinctive 'boss slayer' role, but it does put this obligation on the DM to make sure that the high profile fights have a wide enough range of challenges to make everyone feel valuable (video games tend to solve this by having adds to boss fight that need to be controlled or blown up).
Power Word Kill, Meteor Swarm, Prismatic Spray, Disintegrate, and so on. There are also buff spells, and combat spells that don't require a save.
Outside of meteor swarm you are basically just agreeing with him.
Guaranteed 100/12D12 damage is pretty powerful. Disintegrate is 106.5 average damage if upcasted to level 9, though admittedly it is all avoided with a save. There's also tsunami, and earthquake could be pretty devastating in a city.
By the time you are tossing 9th level spells a martial is dishing out piles of damage every round and power word kill is only 78 damage if they aren't under 100, which lol why don't they just have it do 100 damage no save. Tsunami and earthquake are great spells, but not great single target damage. But hey if you want to wipe out an army those are good choices.
By my (probably terrible) estimates, a martial will be doing less than 50 average dpr, not accounting for magic items, at level 20. 12D12 might not sound amazing, but that is automatic damage. Also, if you can get them off, tsunami and earthquake both do considerable damage and can force many saves.
Because there are umpteen features and abilities in the game that trigger on going to 0 hp, which the wording on PWK circumvents
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The idea that a level 20 doesn't have a magic weapon is kind of laughable. However, even without that
Berserker Barbarian, Level 20; Str 25, great weapon mastery, boon of combat prowess, other features irrelevant. Target assumed AC 22
Champion Fighter, Level 20; Str 21, great weapon fighting and mastery, boon of combat prowess, other features irrelevant. Target assumed AC 22 (50% to hit)
And all that is with no magic items and an AC 22 target. With realistic weapons it's trivially possible to exceed 100 dpr.
Adding to this a level 20 devotion paladin can get a 20 in strength, 20 charisma, great weapon master, and the boon of combat prowess. This gives them a +16 to hit when using their sacred weapon. If you use divine smite when you use combat prowess or crit on the first attack or when you hit on the second attack you guarantee that you will divine smite and hit at least once. If you follow that set up, you have a 94% chance to hit twice on a turn and always uses divine smite even if you only hit once. This doesn't add weapon masteries or factor in undead and fiends with divine smite. Against that same 22 AC your DPR using 4th level smites is 71.43, 5th level is 76.31. You would have 2 turns of the 5th level DPR and 3 turns of the 4th level DPR. Math shown below.
Attack 1: 33.8(5th), 32.23(4th)
Attack 2 with hit and no crit or combat prowess on attack 1 70% chance: 36.74(5th), 33.43(4th)
Attack 2 with combat prowess on 1st hit 25% chance: 4.56
Attack 2 with Crit on 1st hit 5% chance: 1.21
How in the world does the barbarian have a 49.5% chance to crit?
Sorry, that's just bad layout. 49 damage, 5% chance to crit.
Got it. Well, I did say my estimate was probably terrible.
I think most martials can hit about 50 DPR without magic items and some minimal optimization. A non gish spellcaster will probably struggle to keep with single target DPR of martials. Single target DPR is not usually the role of a spellcaster. The problem that OP is bringing up isn't really about legendary resistance but that when a monster makes a save against control spells nothing happens. Legendary resistance only makes that scenario guaranteed to happen if you use control effects on them. If people don't have different strategies for enemies resistant to control effects then that's poor planning. If anything lower tier monsters should have a weaker form of legendary resistance to encourage players to develop different strategies.