I am about to run my first pure 2024 one-shot this coming Saturday, 31 May. I am going to use Axeholm from the Dragon of Icespire Peak as the evening's adventure.
My group is nearing the end of a 2014 based campaign (Shattered Obelisk) and we are deciding if we are going to stick with 2014, move to 2024 or do some kind of hybrid of the two.
Here I am sipping my coffee this morning and reading Axeholm. The link to the ghoul in that adventure, of course, takes you to the legacy 2014 version (not complaining, just informing for those that might not know). So began my comparison to Ghoul 2014 and Ghoul 2024, Ghast 2014 and Ghast 2024. When I first looked at the 2024 ghoul I could see some trade offs but overall my knee jerk reaction was that the 2014 ghoul was still better. But a few minutes of further analysis later, and I found myself asking, "...but is it?"
Back in 2014 ghouls got a bite attack or a claw attack. The bite attack was a disappointing +2 to hit but it did on avg. 9 damage. The claw attack was a +4 to hit and did on avg. 7 damage, with the add-on DC 10 CON save or be paralyzed for one minute. I almost always started with claw attacks and then moved to bite attacks if the opponent was paralyzed. Mostly because I felt this is what the ghoul would do rather than any mechanical reason. However, if an opponent fails its save and remains paralyzed now the ghoul gets to attack with advantage (at +2 to hit, oooooh,) and if the attack hits its a crit! But lets face it who are you going to hit with a +2 bonus, even with advantage? Probably nobody.
Now I see in 2024 the ghoul still has a bite attack and a claw attack still. However, it also now has added a multi-attack, which states the ghoul makes two bite attacks. The bite attack is also now at +4 (a change I agree with) and is going to do 8 damage on avg (3 of which is necrotic). The claw attack, while still having the possibility of paralyzing the enemy, is now a meager 4 damage on average, and the paralyzation only lasts until the end of the target's next turn. So that means no cool combo move for the ghoul, unless it has buddies. Which suddenly makes a pack of ghouls a whole lot more dangerous. Ghoul number one attacks with a claw and if it hits and if the target fails its save that target is now on avg, -4 hp. Ghoul number two comes along, and it now has advantage (at +4 to hit) and does an average of 16 points of damage per bite, and it gets two bites! Most 3rd-level characters are now at 0 hp. Fun times! 5th-level characters are going to be bloodied and then some!
So then I thought I would look at the Ghast, and I found myself a bit perplexed. The 2024 ghast doesnt have multi-attack like the 2024 ghoul. Why? This makes no sense to me. I feel like the ghast should have the same basic mechanics as the ghoul. It has the same basic bite or claw attacks so why can a ghast not bite twice? Sure I can house rule it, but I just feel like this is something that got overlooked / left out or whatever on the ghoul stat block.
They might have wanted the ghast's attack to feel meatier? As if the Ghast was with a bunch of ghouls, it would feel better with bigger numbers on a single hit, although that might also be a balancing thing, as it actually deals less damage on a crit compared to a ghoul's two. I believe they placed a good portion of the power budget on its stench.
I noticed the same thing when I looked at the ghoul and the ghast. I was wondering if the ghast not having multi-attack bites is an oversight. I searched and google brought me here.
Honest, both the ghoul and the ghast seem problematic.
The ghoul has two problems: its multiattack, at 18 dpr, is extremely powerful for CR 1, and its claw attack is so weak that it doesn't make sense to ever actually use it. I would probably change the multiattack into Claw, Bite (meaning people will actually encounter its claw). That leaves the base DPR at 13, which is pretty normal for CR 1; there's a small chance (with +4 to hit and a DC 10 Con save, generally 10-20%) of a combo.
The ghast actually has low damage output for CR 2 (16 dpr with bite, 10 with claw). Unlike the ghoul, the choice between bite and claw isn't so obvious, but that's because its bite attack is actually worse than the ghoul's bite attack. If you just want a ghast to be an upgraded ghoul, it should probably have the same attacks as the ghoul (multiattack, claw, bite) with about 50% more damage (say, bite is 1d8+3+1d8, claw is 1d6+3, for 18 dpr). I might also change it to Con 13, save DC 11, HP 33 (6d8+6).
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I am about to run my first pure 2024 one-shot this coming Saturday, 31 May. I am going to use Axeholm from the Dragon of Icespire Peak as the evening's adventure.
My group is nearing the end of a 2014 based campaign (Shattered Obelisk) and we are deciding if we are going to stick with 2014, move to 2024 or do some kind of hybrid of the two.
Here I am sipping my coffee this morning and reading Axeholm. The link to the ghoul in that adventure, of course, takes you to the legacy 2014 version (not complaining, just informing for those that might not know). So began my comparison to Ghoul 2014 and Ghoul 2024, Ghast 2014 and Ghast 2024. When I first looked at the 2024 ghoul I could see some trade offs but overall my knee jerk reaction was that the 2014 ghoul was still better. But a few minutes of further analysis later, and I found myself asking, "...but is it?"
Back in 2014 ghouls got a bite attack or a claw attack. The bite attack was a disappointing +2 to hit but it did on avg. 9 damage. The claw attack was a +4 to hit and did on avg. 7 damage, with the add-on DC 10 CON save or be paralyzed for one minute. I almost always started with claw attacks and then moved to bite attacks if the opponent was paralyzed. Mostly because I felt this is what the ghoul would do rather than any mechanical reason. However, if an opponent fails its save and remains paralyzed now the ghoul gets to attack with advantage (at +2 to hit, oooooh,) and if the attack hits its a crit! But lets face it who are you going to hit with a +2 bonus, even with advantage? Probably nobody.
Now I see in 2024 the ghoul still has a bite attack and a claw attack still. However, it also now has added a multi-attack, which states the ghoul makes two bite attacks. The bite attack is also now at +4 (a change I agree with) and is going to do 8 damage on avg (3 of which is necrotic). The claw attack, while still having the possibility of paralyzing the enemy, is now a meager 4 damage on average, and the paralyzation only lasts until the end of the target's next turn. So that means no cool combo move for the ghoul, unless it has buddies. Which suddenly makes a pack of ghouls a whole lot more dangerous. Ghoul number one attacks with a claw and if it hits and if the target fails its save that target is now on avg, -4 hp. Ghoul number two comes along, and it now has advantage (at +4 to hit) and does an average of 16 points of damage per bite, and it gets two bites! Most 3rd-level characters are now at 0 hp. Fun times! 5th-level characters are going to be bloodied and then some!
So then I thought I would look at the Ghast, and I found myself a bit perplexed. The 2024 ghast doesnt have multi-attack like the 2024 ghoul. Why? This makes no sense to me. I feel like the ghast should have the same basic mechanics as the ghoul. It has the same basic bite or claw attacks so why can a ghast not bite twice? Sure I can house rule it, but I just feel like this is something that got overlooked / left out or whatever on the ghoul stat block.
They might have wanted the ghast's attack to feel meatier? As if the Ghast was with a bunch of ghouls, it would feel better with bigger numbers on a single hit, although that might also be a balancing thing, as it actually deals less damage on a crit compared to a ghoul's two. I believe they placed a good portion of the power budget on its stench.
The Ghast Gravecaller was given a Multiattack action though.
I noticed the same thing when I looked at the ghoul and the ghast. I was wondering if the ghast not having multi-attack bites is an oversight. I searched and google brought me here.
Honest, both the ghoul and the ghast seem problematic.
The ghoul has two problems: its multiattack, at 18 dpr, is extremely powerful for CR 1, and its claw attack is so weak that it doesn't make sense to ever actually use it. I would probably change the multiattack into Claw, Bite (meaning people will actually encounter its claw). That leaves the base DPR at 13, which is pretty normal for CR 1; there's a small chance (with +4 to hit and a DC 10 Con save, generally 10-20%) of a combo.
The ghast actually has low damage output for CR 2 (16 dpr with bite, 10 with claw). Unlike the ghoul, the choice between bite and claw isn't so obvious, but that's because its bite attack is actually worse than the ghoul's bite attack. If you just want a ghast to be an upgraded ghoul, it should probably have the same attacks as the ghoul (multiattack, claw, bite) with about 50% more damage (say, bite is 1d8+3+1d8, claw is 1d6+3, for 18 dpr). I might also change it to Con 13, save DC 11, HP 33 (6d8+6).