But it seems that a few should have to choose at 1st.
As a Warlock, how are you casting spell if you don't have a pact yet.
As a Cleric your Domain revolves around your deity
Same goes for Paladin
Aren't these narrative/story telling/thematic issues rather than mechanical/rules issues? The rules say you get your subclass mechanics at third level, it's down to you to resolve that narratively?
Yes and no. If the rules make it that some classes have a narrative issue they must overcome in order for it to make sense, then the rules are making the narrative more difficult for the player instead of supporting them and making it easier.
Aren't these narrative/story telling/thematic issues rather than mechanical/rules issues? The rules say you get your subclass mechanics at third level, it's down to you to resolve that narratively?
Yes and no. If the rules make it that some classes have a narrative issue they must overcome in order for it to make sense, then the rules are making the narrative more difficult for the player instead of supporting them and making it easier.
They don't.
If you know what you're going to be playing, then you can play your character appropriately, even though you don't officially have the subclass yet.
Meanwhile, if you don't know what you're going to be playing, it gives you time to figure it out, instead of forcing you to make a choice you might regret a couple of levels down the line.
It's only a problem for somebody who plays their character one way, and then chooses a non-fitting subclass. And, frankly, that's a problem they're making for themselves, and not the game's problem. (Or it's a fun roleplaying opportunity.)
If I remember correctly in 1st edition Clerics spells were given out by different sources depending on their level with only upper tier spells handed out directly by the gods. Lower tiers were done by other divine servants but the lowest tier of spells came from faith alone.
If you wanted you could incorporate a similar system where level determines your connection so at levels 1 or 2 you have no direct ties to any one god or goddess.
Maybe you go to Cleric School where you don't know what you will be until the sorting ceremony at level 3 when a magic hat tells you which God or goddess has picked you.
I imagine this topic is going to come up again from time to time as people slowly filter into the 2024 paradigm. I know when I first wrote about the topic, by the time I finished writing my post, I had come up with several ways it could work, narratively, with the sorcerer. It's not a particularly daunting task, and I imagine there would be zero complaints if 2014 had just started them all at level 3 in the first place.
I remember early 8n the days of 5e there was quite a debate about how a level 1 and 2 paladin gets powers from their oath but they did not make the Oath until they got to level 3. I think that would still have happened if every class got subclasses at level 3, but in time everyone got worked out a way or ignored the issue.
I kind of feel like subclass should be chosen at first level. The benefits may not kick in until 3rd, but subclass can have a lot to do with how you play the character. Cleric and Warlock are 2 that it can really effect
Except, that assumes a deity or patron can only offer one kind of pact, which honestly is weirdly limiting. Lots of gods can be related to multiple domains, and multiple different oaths. So while a Cleric or Paladin might choose a deity to worship at level 1, that choice doesn't determine their subclass.
E.g. Lathandar is the god of life, renewal, and the sun. That could be Life domain, Light domain, Nature domain, Peace domain, or even Order domain if the cleric focuses on how creatures, seasons, and everyday life is ordered by the rise and setting of the sun. For Paladins Glory, Devotion, Redemption, or even Watchers could easily fit with worshiping Lathandar.
In terms of warlocks, Asmodeus might offer a Fiend Pact most often, but why couldn't he grant a magical weapon to offer a Hexblade pact? Or use an enslaved a Effritti to offer a Genie pact? Or offer eternal life as a devil to offer an Undying Pact?
I really can't stress enough, if your answer to the problem is: just decide what subclass you want when you make your character at level 1.
Then you are already in agreement as demonstrated by the fact you've deviated from the rules and guidance of the Player's Handbook to pick at level 3.
And, any game which needs you to pick a character options at a different level than the book tells you to pick it is: poorly designed.
I'm not saying we as players can't make it work. Of course we can, the rules are just suggestions and homebrew and creative narrative exist.
But just because we can cover for the flaws in the rules doesn't make the flaw not be there.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I really can't stress enough, if your answer to the problem is: just decide what subclass you want when you make your character at level 1.
Then you are already in agreement as demonstrated by the fact you've deviated from the rules and guidance of the Player's Handbook to pick at level 3.
There's nothing in the Player's Handbook that says you have to wait to choose your subclass until you get to level 3.
Uh... no, the book tells you to pick subclass at level 3. This fact isn't being debated.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I really can't stress enough, if your answer to the problem is: just decide what subclass you want when you make your character at level 1.
Then you are already in agreement as demonstrated by the fact you've deviated from the rules and guidance of the Player's Handbook to pick at level 3.
There's nothing in the Player's Handbook that says you have to wait to choose your subclass until you get to level 3.
Uh... no, the book tells you to pick subclass at level 3. This fact isn't being debated.
You are running in circles just for the sake of it.
Yes, by the rules you pick a subclass once you reach your 3rd lvl in a class... doesnt matter when that is, and given that we have 13* unique clases and growing, you can play a character 1-20 without picking a single subclass or ASI/Feat besides your origin feat.
What most people here are telling you is that you can decide wich subclass you will like to play anytime you want, and know very well in advance that it will be your choice once you reach the 3rd lvl in a class milestone, and that also influences how you will play your character until that point and forward, its the same with feats, you don't have to pick your Feats/ASI until you reach the according lvl, but normally you can have an idea on what things you want your character to do (ie, cha caster your get points in charisma or feats that grant you a bonus in charisma, not necessary but its the assumption).
You can also go play "blindly", not knowing which subclass you will pick until you reach 3rd level and then deciding, acording to the story, your guts, or the roll of the dice, which subclass you'll play, it will be fine (taking into account your dm and playing group rules off course).
I really can't stress enough, if your answer to the problem is: just decide what subclass you want when you make your character at level 1.
Then you are already in agreement as demonstrated by the fact you've deviated from the rules and guidance of the Player's Handbook to pick at level 3.
And, any game which needs you to pick a character options at a different level than the book tells you to pick it is: poorly designed.
I'm not saying we as players can't make it work. Of course we can, the rules are just suggestions and homebrew and creative narrative exist.
But just because we can cover for the flaws in the rules doesn't make the flaw not be there.
Yeah, I think this argument doesn't really hold any weight at all. Mapping out your character is nothing new, and saying that doing so is somehow not supported by the rules is just silly. In addition to the feats example from the above poster, by your argument you shouldn't pick your species until that step in character creation, right? Don't decide? Don't even think about it? Don't have a character concept that you've thought about for weeks—perhaps months, or even years—before session zero?
The idea is that this isn't actually "a problem" and the people making it "a problem" can solve it by just planning ahead.
I really can't stress enough, if your answer to the problem is: just decide what subclass you want when you make your character at level 1.
It's not.
If you cannot conceptualize a character without making the sorts of decisions required for a subclass, then yes, you ought to pick your subclass early.
If, on the other hand, you can play a warlock who's made a pact with some supernatural entity, or a sorcerer who's just exploring their powers and doesn't yet know the source, or a cleric who serves the gods in general, or even serves a specific god, but hasn't chosen a domain, then you're all good.
This state of uncertainty only lasts, like 3-4 sessions in general, anyway. You're finding your feet. The rest of the party are finding their feet. Playing slightly off from what your subclass will end up being is just a minor issue that will be forgotten, like if you decided to play your character with an accent, but it got too annoying.
Really, the class that's hardest to do this for is the Paladin, because the oaths represent some very different moral codes.
And the paladin has always picked at level 3.
If the paladins could cope for the last decade with no real problems, then the people with fewer problems can probably handle it.
I really can't stress enough, if your answer to the problem is: just decide what subclass you want when you make your character at level 1.
It's not.
If you cannot conceptualize a character without making the sorts of decisions required for a subclass, then yes, you ought to pick your subclass early.
If, on the other hand, you can play a warlock who's made a pact with some supernatural entity, or a sorcerer who's just exploring their powers and doesn't yet know the source, or a cleric who serves the gods in general, or even serves a specific god, but hasn't chosen a domain, then you're all good.
This state of uncertainty only lasts, like 3-4 sessions in general, anyway. You're finding your feet. The rest of the party are finding their feet. Playing slightly off from what your subclass will end up being is just a minor issue that will be forgotten, like if you decided to play your character with an accent, but it got too annoying.
Really, the class that's hardest to do this for is the Paladin, because the oaths represent some very different moral codes.
And the paladin has always picked at level 3.
If the paladins could cope for the last decade with no real problems, then the people with fewer problems can probably handle it.
I'm not sure why people are trying to argue with me while literally agreeing with me. You agree that there is a state of uncertainty. By your own words. The issue I have is that you are playing Schrodinger's Subclass. Narratively, it must be one while also not being one. You even agree that they've had to cope.
Speaking of your last point: I was very clear in that this affects some class/subclass more noticeably than others. It is also a problem for paladin. Just as it is also a problem for all classes. But it is a trivial problem for some and a glaring problem for others. This was an issue in 2014, but not the most critical of issues because most classes got their subclasses earlier than 3rd, and of those that did get it at 3rd it was mostly the paladin's that was a clear issue.
Some people suggest just dealing with it and playing Schrodinger's Subclass. Just stay away from anything in-game narrative-wise than makes it clear which subclass you are going to belong to. If a cleric; make general vague references to being a servant of "a" god. Just don't name them, or describe your holy symbol, or etc. Stay in some narratively undefined subclass state for a few session until you do decide at level 3.
That, in my opinion, is bad game design.
Now, others suggest you simply pick your subclass early, so that you can narratively define it from the start.
And again, I say to that: I'm of the opinion that needing to pick a character option at a different level than it is granted by the game is bad game design.
And, finally, to anyone saying I'm saying this is some untenable unplayable game or whatever hyperbole: I'm not. Homebrew or clever workarounds are always available. You can fix the issue for your character. You pick the direction you want to go with that fix, either play Schrodinger's Subclass, keep it vague a couple sessions... or pick the subclass early and nail down your full concept early... or even some other inventive solutions you and your DM hatch up. I know you can work around the problem. I'm not claiming you can't.
I'm saying you should not have to.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I really can't stress enough, if your answer to the problem is: just decide what subclass you want when you make your character at level 1.
It's not.
If you cannot conceptualize a character without making the sorts of decisions required for a subclass, then yes, you ought to pick your subclass early.
If, on the other hand, you can play a warlock who's made a pact with some supernatural entity, or a sorcerer who's just exploring their powers and doesn't yet know the source, or a cleric who serves the gods in general, or even serves a specific god, but hasn't chosen a domain, then you're all good.
This state of uncertainty only lasts, like 3-4 sessions in general, anyway. You're finding your feet. The rest of the party are finding their feet. Playing slightly off from what your subclass will end up being is just a minor issue that will be forgotten, like if you decided to play your character with an accent, but it got too annoying.
Really, the class that's hardest to do this for is the Paladin, because the oaths represent some very different moral codes.
And the paladin has always picked at level 3.
If the paladins could cope for the last decade with no real problems, then the people with fewer problems can probably handle it.
I'm not sure why people are trying to argue with me while literally agreeing with me. You agree that there is a state of uncertainty. By your own words. The issue I have is that you are playing Schrodinger's Subclass. Narratively, it must be one while also not being one. You even agree that they've had to cope.
Speaking of your last point: I was very clear in that this affects some class/subclass more noticeably than others. It is also a problem for paladin. Just as it is also a problem for all classes. But it is a trivial problem for some and a glaring problem for others. This was an issue in 2014, but not the most critical of issues because most classes got their subclasses earlier than 3rd, and of those that did get it at 3rd it was mostly the paladin's that was a clear issue.
Some people suggest just dealing with it and playing Schrodinger's Subclass. Just stay away from anything in-game narrative-wise than makes it clear which subclass you are going to belong to. If a cleric; make general vague references to being a servant of "a" god. Just don't name them, or describe your holy symbol, or etc. Stay in some narratively undefined subclass state for a few session until you do decide at level 3.
That, in my opinion, is bad game design.
Now, others suggest you simply pick your subclass early, so that you can narratively define it from the start.
And again, I say to that: I'm of the opinion that needing to pick a character option at a different level than it is granted by the game is bad game design.
And, finally, to anyone saying I'm saying this is some untenable unplayable game or whatever hyperbole: I'm not. Homebrew or clever workarounds are always available. You can fix the issue for your character. You pick the direction you want to go with that fix, either play Schrodinger's Subclass, keep it vague a couple sessions... or pick the subclass early and nail down your full concept early... or even some other inventive solutions you and your DM hatch up. I know you can work around the problem. I'm not claiming you can't.
I'm saying you should not have to.
Here is the most basic houserule possible: pick your subclass at level 1 even though you get nothing for it. Is that fun? No. Is there a point to that? Not really. Would anybody do it? Obviously not. If you would, feel free to correct me, but I think that is a pretty good proof that this supposed problem is insignificant at best.
I really can't stress enough, if your answer to the problem is: just decide what subclass you want when you make your character at level 1.
It's not.
If you cannot conceptualize a character without making the sorts of decisions required for a subclass, then yes, you ought to pick your subclass early.
If, on the other hand, you can play a warlock who's made a pact with some supernatural entity, or a sorcerer who's just exploring their powers and doesn't yet know the source, or a cleric who serves the gods in general, or even serves a specific god, but hasn't chosen a domain, then you're all good.
This state of uncertainty only lasts, like 3-4 sessions in general, anyway. You're finding your feet. The rest of the party are finding their feet. Playing slightly off from what your subclass will end up being is just a minor issue that will be forgotten, like if you decided to play your character with an accent, but it got too annoying.
Really, the class that's hardest to do this for is the Paladin, because the oaths represent some very different moral codes.
And the paladin has always picked at level 3.
If the paladins could cope for the last decade with no real problems, then the people with fewer problems can probably handle it.
I'm not sure why people are trying to argue with me while literally agreeing with me. You agree that there is a state of uncertainty. By your own words. The issue I have is that you are playing Schrodinger's Subclass. Narratively, it must be one while also not being one. You even agree that they've had to cope.
Speaking of your last point: I was very clear in that this affects some class/subclass more noticeably than others. It is also a problem for paladin. Just as it is also a problem for all classes. But it is a trivial problem for some and a glaring problem for others. This was an issue in 2014, but not the most critical of issues because most classes got their subclasses earlier than 3rd, and of those that did get it at 3rd it was mostly the paladin's that was a clear issue.
Some people suggest just dealing with it and playing Schrodinger's Subclass. Just stay away from anything in-game narrative-wise than makes it clear which subclass you are going to belong to. If a cleric; make general vague references to being a servant of "a" god. Just don't name them, or describe your holy symbol, or etc. Stay in some narratively undefined subclass state for a few session until you do decide at level 3.
That, in my opinion, is bad game design.
Now, others suggest you simply pick your subclass early, so that you can narratively define it from the start.
And again, I say to that: I'm of the opinion that needing to pick a character option at a different level than it is granted by the game is bad game design.
And, finally, to anyone saying I'm saying this is some untenable unplayable game or whatever hyperbole: I'm not. Homebrew or clever workarounds are always available. You can fix the issue for your character. You pick the direction you want to go with that fix, either play Schrodinger's Subclass, keep it vague a couple sessions... or pick the subclass early and nail down your full concept early... or even some other inventive solutions you and your DM hatch up. I know you can work around the problem. I'm not claiming you can't.
I'm saying you should not have to.
I understand you better.
In my case, I don't see a problem with it. Sometimes you know what you want/are, sometimes you don't and need time to find out. Taking from real life some people know what their major or career or specialization is going to be even before going to college, some don't and spend the first years of college/High School figuring out what they want to be or specialize in.
Its almost the same thing.... you can play your warlock from 1st knowing who your patron is and what abilities you'll gain in the future or not knowing who gives you your magical powers until later and being revealed/chosen then. (eg. you gained your powers from a book, but don't know what entity lies behind, or the entity you make a pact is a robed cloaked faceless figure).
For me its just different ways to play the same game, and not a desing problem. A class is your career, a subclass your specialization, you must know your class to play the game... you don't need to know what you're going to specialize in or even if you'll multiclass, at least not yet, but there's also no harm in knowing and both ways can be defined in the story and RP of the game as backstory or ongoing story. And even if you know your entire level breakdown from the start, you can change your mind along the way and make different choices. That for me is not bad design, is just a choice you are given.
I'm not sure why people are trying to argue with me while literally agreeing with me. You agree that there is a state of uncertainty. By your own words. The issue I have is that you are playing Schrodinger's Subclass. Narratively, it must be one while also not being one. You even agree that they've had to cope.
Thing is, I don't agree with you. Specifically, I don't think it's any kind of problem. Furthermore, I think pushing the subclass decision out to third in all cases is a good design decision, because it improves the new player experience, and creates no problems for experienced players.
Some people suggest just dealing with it and playing Schrodinger's Subclass. Just stay away from anything in-game narrative-wise than makes it clear which subclass you are going to belong to. If a cleric; make general vague references to being a servant of "a" god. Just don't name them, or describe your holy symbol, or etc. Stay in some narratively undefined subclass state for a few session until you do decide at level 3.
For experienced players, there are two possibilities:
You already know what you're taking as a subclass. You already have a solid character concept. You can run with that whenever you pick your subclass. Lots of people come up with character ideas involving multiclassing, which is going to take even longer to be fully realized. That's not a problem with the game -- it's the natural consequence of a game where you make choices as you advance. This is, at a rough estimate, 95+% of all characters from experienced players.
You don't know. You are choosing to play a character with an uncertain direction, and intend to figure it out in play. This is only possible if you're not forced to make your choice right off the bat.
Has anyone ever played out their Bard going to college halfway through the campaign? Where's the narrative justification on that? And Bard subclasses (Colleges) have been lvl 3 the whole lifespan of 5e. The game is meant to be narrative and mechanics, and just because WoTC aligned mechanics better doesn't mean any narrative got shafted. Just changed.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
Yes and no. If the rules make it that some classes have a narrative issue they must overcome in order for it to make sense, then the rules are making the narrative more difficult for the player instead of supporting them and making it easier.
They don't.
If you know what you're going to be playing, then you can play your character appropriately, even though you don't officially have the subclass yet.
Meanwhile, if you don't know what you're going to be playing, it gives you time to figure it out, instead of forcing you to make a choice you might regret a couple of levels down the line.
It's only a problem for somebody who plays their character one way, and then chooses a non-fitting subclass. And, frankly, that's a problem they're making for themselves, and not the game's problem. (Or it's a fun roleplaying opportunity.)
If I remember correctly in 1st edition Clerics spells were given out by different sources depending on their level with only upper tier spells handed out directly by the gods. Lower tiers were done by other divine servants but the lowest tier of spells came from faith alone.
If you wanted you could incorporate a similar system where level determines your connection so at levels 1 or 2 you have no direct ties to any one god or goddess.
Maybe you go to Cleric School where you don't know what you will be until the sorting ceremony at level 3 when a magic hat tells you which God or goddess has picked you.
I imagine this topic is going to come up again from time to time as people slowly filter into the 2024 paradigm. I know when I first wrote about the topic, by the time I finished writing my post, I had come up with several ways it could work, narratively, with the sorcerer. It's not a particularly daunting task, and I imagine there would be zero complaints if 2014 had just started them all at level 3 in the first place.
I remember early 8n the days of 5e there was quite a debate about how a level 1 and 2 paladin gets powers from their oath but they did not make the Oath until they got to level 3. I think that would still have happened if every class got subclasses at level 3, but in time everyone got worked out a way or ignored the issue.
Except, that assumes a deity or patron can only offer one kind of pact, which honestly is weirdly limiting. Lots of gods can be related to multiple domains, and multiple different oaths. So while a Cleric or Paladin might choose a deity to worship at level 1, that choice doesn't determine their subclass.
E.g. Lathandar is the god of life, renewal, and the sun. That could be Life domain, Light domain, Nature domain, Peace domain, or even Order domain if the cleric focuses on how creatures, seasons, and everyday life is ordered by the rise and setting of the sun. For Paladins Glory, Devotion, Redemption, or even Watchers could easily fit with worshiping Lathandar.
In terms of warlocks, Asmodeus might offer a Fiend Pact most often, but why couldn't he grant a magical weapon to offer a Hexblade pact? Or use an enslaved a Effritti to offer a Genie pact? Or offer eternal life as a devil to offer an Undying Pact?
I really can't stress enough, if your answer to the problem is: just decide what subclass you want when you make your character at level 1.
Then you are already in agreement as demonstrated by the fact you've deviated from the rules and guidance of the Player's Handbook to pick at level 3.
And, any game which needs you to pick a character options at a different level than the book tells you to pick it is: poorly designed.
I'm not saying we as players can't make it work. Of course we can, the rules are just suggestions and homebrew and creative narrative exist.
But just because we can cover for the flaws in the rules doesn't make the flaw not be there.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
There's nothing in the Player's Handbook that says you have to wait to choose your subclass until you get to level 3.
pronouns: he/she/they
Uh... no, the book tells you to pick subclass at level 3. This fact isn't being debated.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Rav
You are running in circles just for the sake of it.
Yes, by the rules you pick a subclass once you reach your 3rd lvl in a class... doesnt matter when that is, and given that we have 13* unique clases and growing, you can play a character 1-20 without picking a single subclass or ASI/Feat besides your origin feat.
What most people here are telling you is that you can decide wich subclass you will like to play anytime you want, and know very well in advance that it will be your choice once you reach the 3rd lvl in a class milestone, and that also influences how you will play your character until that point and forward, its the same with feats, you don't have to pick your Feats/ASI until you reach the according lvl, but normally you can have an idea on what things you want your character to do (ie, cha caster your get points in charisma or feats that grant you a bonus in charisma, not necessary but its the assumption).
You can also go play "blindly", not knowing which subclass you will pick until you reach 3rd level and then deciding, acording to the story, your guts, or the roll of the dice, which subclass you'll play, it will be fine (taking into account your dm and playing group rules off course).
Yeah, I think this argument doesn't really hold any weight at all. Mapping out your character is nothing new, and saying that doing so is somehow not supported by the rules is just silly. In addition to the feats example from the above poster, by your argument you shouldn't pick your species until that step in character creation, right? Don't decide? Don't even think about it? Don't have a character concept that you've thought about for weeks—perhaps months, or even years—before session zero?
The idea is that this isn't actually "a problem" and the people making it "a problem" can solve it by just planning ahead.
It's not.
If you cannot conceptualize a character without making the sorts of decisions required for a subclass, then yes, you ought to pick your subclass early.
If, on the other hand, you can play a warlock who's made a pact with some supernatural entity, or a sorcerer who's just exploring their powers and doesn't yet know the source, or a cleric who serves the gods in general, or even serves a specific god, but hasn't chosen a domain, then you're all good.
This state of uncertainty only lasts, like 3-4 sessions in general, anyway. You're finding your feet. The rest of the party are finding their feet. Playing slightly off from what your subclass will end up being is just a minor issue that will be forgotten, like if you decided to play your character with an accent, but it got too annoying.
Really, the class that's hardest to do this for is the Paladin, because the oaths represent some very different moral codes.
And the paladin has always picked at level 3.
If the paladins could cope for the last decade with no real problems, then the people with fewer problems can probably handle it.
I'm not sure why people are trying to argue with me while literally agreeing with me. You agree that there is a state of uncertainty. By your own words. The issue I have is that you are playing Schrodinger's Subclass. Narratively, it must be one while also not being one. You even agree that they've had to cope.
Speaking of your last point: I was very clear in that this affects some class/subclass more noticeably than others. It is also a problem for paladin. Just as it is also a problem for all classes. But it is a trivial problem for some and a glaring problem for others. This was an issue in 2014, but not the most critical of issues because most classes got their subclasses earlier than 3rd, and of those that did get it at 3rd it was mostly the paladin's that was a clear issue.
Some people suggest just dealing with it and playing Schrodinger's Subclass. Just stay away from anything in-game narrative-wise than makes it clear which subclass you are going to belong to. If a cleric; make general vague references to being a servant of "a" god. Just don't name them, or describe your holy symbol, or etc. Stay in some narratively undefined subclass state for a few session until you do decide at level 3.
That, in my opinion, is bad game design.
Now, others suggest you simply pick your subclass early, so that you can narratively define it from the start.
And again, I say to that: I'm of the opinion that needing to pick a character option at a different level than it is granted by the game is bad game design.
And, finally, to anyone saying I'm saying this is some untenable unplayable game or whatever hyperbole: I'm not. Homebrew or clever workarounds are always available. You can fix the issue for your character. You pick the direction you want to go with that fix, either play Schrodinger's Subclass, keep it vague a couple sessions... or pick the subclass early and nail down your full concept early... or even some other inventive solutions you and your DM hatch up. I know you can work around the problem. I'm not claiming you can't.
I'm saying you should not have to.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Here is the most basic houserule possible: pick your subclass at level 1 even though you get nothing for it. Is that fun? No. Is there a point to that? Not really. Would anybody do it? Obviously not. If you would, feel free to correct me, but I think that is a pretty good proof that this supposed problem is insignificant at best.
I understand you better.
In my case, I don't see a problem with it. Sometimes you know what you want/are, sometimes you don't and need time to find out.
Taking from real life some people know what their major or career or specialization is going to be even before going to college, some don't and spend the first years of college/High School figuring out what they want to be or specialize in.
Its almost the same thing.... you can play your warlock from 1st knowing who your patron is and what abilities you'll gain in the future or not knowing who gives you your magical powers until later and being revealed/chosen then. (eg. you gained your powers from a book, but don't know what entity lies behind, or the entity you make a pact is a robed cloaked faceless figure).
For me its just different ways to play the same game, and not a desing problem. A class is your career, a subclass your specialization, you must know your class to play the game... you don't need to know what you're going to specialize in or even if you'll multiclass, at least not yet, but there's also no harm in knowing and both ways can be defined in the story and RP of the game as backstory or ongoing story. And even if you know your entire level breakdown from the start, you can change your mind along the way and make different choices. That for me is not bad design, is just a choice you are given.
Thing is, I don't agree with you. Specifically, I don't think it's any kind of problem. Furthermore, I think pushing the subclass decision out to third in all cases is a good design decision, because it improves the new player experience, and creates no problems for experienced players.
For experienced players, there are two possibilities:
Has anyone ever played out their Bard going to college halfway through the campaign? Where's the narrative justification on that? And Bard subclasses (Colleges) have been lvl 3 the whole lifespan of 5e. The game is meant to be narrative and mechanics, and just because WoTC aligned mechanics better doesn't mean any narrative got shafted. Just changed.
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
This is why Strixhaven exists