We just wrapped our first 5E campaign (Princes of the Apocalypse, after 24 bi-weekly sessions from last May 2024) last week and for 2/3 of the campaign, we used the updated 2024 rules. IMHO, it was a huge downgrade at least from a DM's perspective.
One of the reasons I stuck with Pathfinder 1E for so long after 5E released was because it was pretty much an "I WIN" button for players. I get the theory behind the design about attracting new players and them being OP from the get-go as happily trouncing everything gives you a fuzzy feeling of success and keeps them interested. No one wants to spend a lot of time reading books with rules, building a character and running the risk dying within the first few hours of a campaign (that wouldn't attract or keep a lot of new players).
2024 rules dialed it up to 10. Weapon mastery examples like Nick giving extra attacks and Vex giving advantage added up to big damage, especially with Vex, as advantage meant way more backstab dice for our rogue player. To add more "win" to this, drinking a healing potion became a bonus action. Once we put these rules into effect, I had to edit nearly every encounter to provide more challenge, and they still came out of everything barely breaking a sweat, even when they nearly pulled most of the dungeon on top of their heads more than once. When they did that with 2014 rules, it was way more challenging with a couple of near-tpk experiences sprinkled in. These were more memorable because of the challenge.
By the time the new MM finally came out, I thought finally WotC will bring balance to the force....... Nope, in most cases monsters were weaker. An example, Lycanthropes no longer need silvered weapons which TBH takes away from the flavor of the encounter as well as the difficulty. The biggest downer was the Medusa (Prophet of the Black Earth, I'm looking at you), used to be anytime you were attacking you risked meeting it's petrifying gaze. Now it's only a directional attack cone with a 5-6 recharge rate. That dropped the challenge enormously.
We had fun with the 2024 rules and my players loved the campaign, mostly because how I incorporated each character's backstory into various parts of the campaign (lots of subplots), but they agreed the challenge wasn't quite there as it was with the old ruleset. So, we are returning to the 2014 rules for our next campaign which starts in a week or two. Characters are done already, and players are chomping at the bit to begin.
Just thought I'd share my experience, hopefully others share their opinions on this too.
P.S. about the only thing I'm keeping from 2024 is the druid shapeshift as a bonus action atm. I thought this should have been in 2014 as well.
I am doing something similar. I am DM'ing for a 2024 and a 2014.
The only DM's who don't think that 2024 players are SUBSTANTIALLY more powerful than 2014, are DM's who haven't actually DM'd for 2024.
You're exactly right in most of this, But monsters aren't weaker, some are however--but most are marginally more powerful. One thing you didn't mention is DOUBLE the healing. Just that alone completely changes combat potential and duration. Monster damage increased maybe 10%, but cleric healing--ALL healing, doubled. 2024 players would CRUSH 2014 players.
The 2014 ruleset meant that the damage you took--was not easily healed. Now a player gets wacked for 50? No problem. Not to mention nearly every class has a healing variant that can rival a cleric of a similar level from 2014.
------------------------buuuuut!
I still like 2024 more---absolutely NOT for making the classes more powerful. What I like is that ALL of the classes are viable options and none are overpowered relative to eachother. Whiel the weapon masteries are powerful, I think they're great--but only smart players will use them well. 2024 increased complexity greatly, but I'm not sure it increased fun as a result.
But I find 2014 to be so unbalanced in terms of classes, where the wizard reigns supreme, and no one plays the monk as a result---we can see all the tier lists and player rankings, every primary class has an enormously favored subclass, and the rest simply aren't played. 2024 has dozens of new monsters, which are awesome, new magic items, new spells, and revised spells that were too powerful and disrupting balance.
From a top down view--I think that despite the OBVIOUSLY incredibly powerful classes that result from 2024, that the system as a whole is better balanced.
Specific things I like. 1. New sneak rules are solid 2. I like the new grappling rules 3. I like that the classes are far more complex, varied, and represent a vast spectrum of play styles. 4. I like that players choose weapons based on masteries now instead of the same weapons all the time from 2014. 5. REALLY like new exhaustion levels. (I also give exhaustion on any KO). I use exhaustion constantly now. 6. Changing weapons without an action makes combat more fun.
Specific things I don't like 1. New surprise attack is awful and unrealistic. 2. Elimination of racial differences due to DEI agenda. Now a gnome is as strong as a goliath, so long as they were both soldiers. It's stupid. 3. Doubling healing is ridiculous. I think healing should not have changed at all.
I'm sure there 4. Players have to make less 'hard' decisions. Because every player can do so many things, it seems like specialist roles aren't really important anymore.
2024 is the better product, but players are insanely overpowered and it boggles my mind that they either 1. did not recognize it 2. knew about it and chose to ignore it.
Just started a new campaign (as a DM) with 2025 rules and characters and using monsters from the new manual.
So far, I'm finding that despite the boosts to character power, encounters still feel like they've become rather more challenging to my players.
I know some of the lower-CR monsters were brought down a peg to avoid one-hit-kills of 1st level characters, but otherwise monsters do feel much more dangerous. I think this is mainly because they removed abilities that required both a successful hit AND for the PC to fail a save to get affected by something. Now its either: Monster hits - you take damage AND get affected by [whatever] OR the ability just requires a PC to save or be affected by [whatever]. It also seems to be more common for monsters to deal other elemental damage on top of just physical damage.
So even with weapon masteries (which only really boosts weapon-users) and the healing boost, players are still taking more damage or suffering other effects more frequently and needing to be healed more and this feels like it has ratcheted up the tension in battles. Should mention the players have only reached 4th level so far.
"So far, I'm finding that despite the boosts to character power, encounters still feel like they've become rather more challenging to my players."
I was wondering what level your players are, and I see 4. I have a group of 4 level 7 players, who play 8 different classes (They can choose one of two classes upon a long rest). Their capacities rocket around 6-7--good lord. Their ability to evade damage, heal damage, mitigate damage, and move around the battlefield is absurd. Then you have clerics who are healing for 2x. If you took 2014 and just simple doubled all heals (which is what 2024 did), players would be substantially stronger--but 2024 goes way beyond that.
At low levels its really pretty easy to make a challenging encounter. Consider also that low level players don't have much equipment either. So put them at level 6-7, and they've got level 3-4 spells, +1 weapons, and lots of magic gear. At low level they also don't have many tricks in their bag, and then around 6 they start to become bonkers. The players are an incredible array of ways to mitigate damage in 2024. One of my players is a level 6 monk: she stood and took between 50-60 direct shots from ranged attackers and never had to move, and in fact killed several of them! Without moving--she can heal, deflect, and reverse shots. All the melee characters have what amounts to spell slots (their focus points) now, which allow them to do ridiculous things that require paragraphs of descriptions to understand, none of which existed in 2014.
Even if they get KO'd, the cleric can heal them to full health in a single spell, easily, and then doing that several times. Getting KO'd doesn't mean anything.
To help combat the OP 2024 characters, I've added that any KO will incur a level of exhaustion, also added that resting in a non-safe location will not cure exaustion below first level.
How does this compare to the CR ratings? My last fight, my players--level 7--took down a CR7, CR6, CR4, and 6 CR 1/2's, all in one battle. They don't have incredible equipment--but they played well and just simply used their classes effectively.
Give it a bit longer, your players will learn their classes and become 2024 gods of the realm!
Just started a new campaign (as a DM) with 2025 rules and characters and using monsters from the new manual.
So far, I'm finding that despite the boosts to character power, encounters still feel like they've become rather more challenging to my players.
You just started; things open up about level 6 or 7 and become bonkers after that. My 5 players were even one level below the suggested level for each dungeon during the second half of the campaign and they obliterated everything.
But I find 2014 to be so unbalanced in terms of classes, where the wizard reigns supreme, and no one plays the monk as a result---we can see all the tier lists and player rankings, every primary class has an enormously favored subclass, and the rest simply aren't played.
(BOLD'ed this because I can't seem to reply to two quotes in a single post). I disagree here because my group always chooses concepts over min-maxing. Let's face it, Wizards are Nukes, Period. That's why we only had one Gandalf in the nine. :)
We just wrapped our first 5E campaign (Princes of the Apocalypse, after 24 bi-weekly sessions from last May 2024) last week and for 2/3 of the campaign, we used the updated 2024 rules. IMHO, it was a huge downgrade at least from a DM's perspective.
One of the reasons I stuck with Pathfinder 1E for so long after 5E released was because it was pretty much an "I WIN" button for players. I get the theory behind the design about attracting new players and them being OP from the get-go as happily trouncing everything gives you a fuzzy feeling of success and keeps them interested. No one wants to spend a lot of time reading books with rules, building a character and running the risk dying within the first few hours of a campaign (that wouldn't attract or keep a lot of new players).
2024 rules dialed it up to 10. Weapon mastery examples like Nick giving extra attacks and Vex giving advantage added up to big damage, especially with Vex, as advantage meant way more backstab dice for our rogue player. To add more "win" to this, drinking a healing potion became a bonus action. Once we put these rules into effect, I had to edit nearly every encounter to provide more challenge, and they still came out of everything barely breaking a sweat, even when they nearly pulled most of the dungeon on top of their heads more than once. When they did that with 2014 rules, it was way more challenging with a couple of near-tpk experiences sprinkled in. These were more memorable because of the challenge.
By the time the new MM finally came out, I thought finally WotC will bring balance to the force....... Nope, in most cases monsters were weaker. An example, Lycanthropes no longer need silvered weapons which TBH takes away from the flavor of the encounter as well as the difficulty. The biggest downer was the Medusa (Prophet of the Black Earth, I'm looking at you), used to be anytime you were attacking you risked meeting it's petrifying gaze. Now it's only a directional attack cone with a 5-6 recharge rate. That dropped the challenge enormously.
We had fun with the 2024 rules and my players loved the campaign, mostly because how I incorporated each character's backstory into various parts of the campaign (lots of subplots), but they agreed the challenge wasn't quite there as it was with the old ruleset. So, we are returning to the 2014 rules for our next campaign which starts in a week or two. Characters are done already, and players are chomping at the bit to begin.
Just thought I'd share my experience, hopefully others share their opinions on this too.
P.S. about the only thing I'm keeping from 2024 is the druid shapeshift as a bonus action atm. I thought this should have been in 2014 as well.
I am doing something similar. I am DM'ing for a 2024 and a 2014.
The only DM's who don't think that 2024 players are SUBSTANTIALLY more powerful than 2014, are DM's who haven't actually DM'd for 2024.
You're exactly right in most of this, But monsters aren't weaker, some are however--but most are marginally more powerful. One thing you didn't mention is DOUBLE the healing. Just that alone completely changes combat potential and duration. Monster damage increased maybe 10%, but cleric healing--ALL healing, doubled. 2024 players would CRUSH 2014 players.
The 2014 ruleset meant that the damage you took--was not easily healed. Now a player gets wacked for 50? No problem. Not to mention nearly every class has a healing variant that can rival a cleric of a similar level from 2014.
------------------------buuuuut!
I still like 2024 more---absolutely NOT for making the classes more powerful. What I like is that ALL of the classes are viable options and none are overpowered relative to eachother. Whiel the weapon masteries are powerful, I think they're great--but only smart players will use them well. 2024 increased complexity greatly, but I'm not sure it increased fun as a result.
But I find 2014 to be so unbalanced in terms of classes, where the wizard reigns supreme, and no one plays the monk as a result---we can see all the tier lists and player rankings, every primary class has an enormously favored subclass, and the rest simply aren't played. 2024 has dozens of new monsters, which are awesome, new magic items, new spells, and revised spells that were too powerful and disrupting balance.
From a top down view--I think that despite the OBVIOUSLY incredibly powerful classes that result from 2024, that the system as a whole is better balanced.
Specific things I like.
1. New sneak rules are solid
2. I like the new grappling rules
3. I like that the classes are far more complex, varied, and represent a vast spectrum of play styles.
4. I like that players choose weapons based on masteries now instead of the same weapons all the time from 2014.
5. REALLY like new exhaustion levels. (I also give exhaustion on any KO). I use exhaustion constantly now.
6. Changing weapons without an action makes combat more fun.
Specific things I don't like
1. New surprise attack is awful and unrealistic.
2. Elimination of racial differences due to DEI agenda. Now a gnome is as strong as a goliath, so long as they were both soldiers. It's stupid.
3. Doubling healing is ridiculous. I think healing should not have changed at all.
I'm sure there
4. Players have to make less 'hard' decisions. Because every player can do so many things, it seems like specialist roles aren't really important anymore.
2024 is the better product, but players are insanely overpowered and it boggles my mind that they either 1. did not recognize it 2. knew about it and chose to ignore it.
Just started a new campaign (as a DM) with 2025 rules and characters and using monsters from the new manual.
So far, I'm finding that despite the boosts to character power, encounters still feel like they've become rather more challenging to my players.
I know some of the lower-CR monsters were brought down a peg to avoid one-hit-kills of 1st level characters, but otherwise monsters do feel much more dangerous. I think this is mainly because they removed abilities that required both a successful hit AND for the PC to fail a save to get affected by something. Now its either: Monster hits - you take damage AND get affected by [whatever] OR the ability just requires a PC to save or be affected by [whatever]. It also seems to be more common for monsters to deal other elemental damage on top of just physical damage.
So even with weapon masteries (which only really boosts weapon-users) and the healing boost, players are still taking more damage or suffering other effects more frequently and needing to be healed more and this feels like it has ratcheted up the tension in battles. Should mention the players have only reached 4th level so far.
Or maybe my players just aren't very good!
"So far, I'm finding that despite the boosts to character power, encounters still feel like they've become rather more challenging to my players."
I was wondering what level your players are, and I see 4. I have a group of 4 level 7 players, who play 8 different classes (They can choose one of two classes upon a long rest). Their capacities rocket around 6-7--good lord. Their ability to evade damage, heal damage, mitigate damage, and move around the battlefield is absurd. Then you have clerics who are healing for 2x. If you took 2014 and just simple doubled all heals (which is what 2024 did), players would be substantially stronger--but 2024 goes way beyond that.
At low levels its really pretty easy to make a challenging encounter. Consider also that low level players don't have much equipment either. So put them at level 6-7, and they've got level 3-4 spells, +1 weapons, and lots of magic gear. At low level they also don't have many tricks in their bag, and then around 6 they start to become bonkers. The players are an incredible array of ways to mitigate damage in 2024. One of my players is a level 6 monk: she stood and took between 50-60 direct shots from ranged attackers and never had to move, and in fact killed several of them! Without moving--she can heal, deflect, and reverse shots. All the melee characters have what amounts to spell slots (their focus points) now, which allow them to do ridiculous things that require paragraphs of descriptions to understand, none of which existed in 2014.
Even if they get KO'd, the cleric can heal them to full health in a single spell, easily, and then doing that several times. Getting KO'd doesn't mean anything.
To help combat the OP 2024 characters, I've added that any KO will incur a level of exhaustion, also added that resting in a non-safe location will not cure exaustion below first level.
How does this compare to the CR ratings?
My last fight, my players--level 7--took down a CR7, CR6, CR4, and 6 CR 1/2's, all in one battle. They don't have incredible equipment--but they played well and just simply used their classes effectively.
Give it a bit longer, your players will learn their classes and become 2024 gods of the realm!
One specific thing, I would not change the boss at all. It is balanced around the 2014 version, and I see it has its own dedicated stat block.
If you are being disingenuous and rude, consider this your only response.
Homebrew: dominance, The Necrotic
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You just started; things open up about level 6 or 7 and become bonkers after that. My 5 players were even one level below the suggested level for each dungeon during the second half of the campaign and they obliterated everything.