With 2024 rules the shadow monk's Darkness is now:
Darkness. You can expend 1 Focus Point to cast the Darkness spell without spell components. You can see within the spell’s area when you cast it with this feature. While the spell persists, you can move its area of Darkness to a space within 60 feet of yourself at the start of each of your turns.
So if monk's race did not have natural dark vision, and no other means for dark vision had be used, cast Darkness within an area already effected by darkness, looking at both natural darkness and magical darkness. How would this interact, both RAW and how you'd play it at your tables.
Does the monk still see darkness, and the obscuration to vision is just what was already there and not the new layer of darkness they added.
Does the monk gain a pocket of vision within the spell effect area, Does the Monk have to be within the effect area to see or does it almost work like a torch in the distance (enabling a sort of throw and teleport system with it via shadow step.
The second part of that feature gives the player Darkvision, so the question is moot:
Darkvision. You gain Darkvision with a range of 60 feet. If you already have Darkvision, its range increases by 60 feet.
Hypothetically though, if you only had the Darkness section of the feature, I'd argue that you still wouldn't be able to see within the area of the spell. Per the Player's Handbook, the presence or absence of light determines the category of illumination in an area. Where there's no illumination, the area becomes heavily obscured and a player without special senses becomes blinded.
In this case, you can see into the spell's area; but that area still has no illumination, so the heavily obscured rule would still apply.
Warrior of Shadow: The Warrior of Shadow really shines in 2024, pun intended. Shadow Arts has been reworked, allowing you to cast Darkness and Minor Illusion, and you can move the field of Darkness you create. The feature also gives you Darkvision (or upgrades yours if you have it) and lets you see through the Darkness of your own Darkness spell. [...]
The second part of that feature gives the player Darkvision, so the question is moot: [...]
Not entirely moot, since the spell says:
Darkvision can’t see through it, and nonmagical light can’t illuminate it.
The Darkvision restriction from the base spell doesn't apply, because the Shadow Arts feature negates it:
Darkness. You can expend 1 Focus Point to cast the Darkness spell without spell components. You can see within the spell’s area when you cast it with this feature.
The original question is whether a Warrior of Shadow monk without Darkvision would be able to see the area within the specific Darkness spell granted through their Shadow Arts feature, if that area had no illumination - but the same feature grants you the ability to cast Darkness in that manner also gives you Darkvision, so RAW you're never going to be in that position. That's all I meant.
Cheers for pointing out the darkvision change, seems i didnt read that correctly in my haste for this idea. Thought it played out the same as 2014 where it was 1 focus point to cast spell which lasts for 8 hours. Not a permanent buff. (guess being a halfling shadow monk in 2014 rules, I've got to used to that application of darkvision)
So agree mostly moot point. I guess interaction with other magical darkness would be a factor, although would that fall under combining spell effect rules, or just grant the Monk a bespoke method of seeing in parts which over lap
...the effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap.
There's no real mechanical baseline for how 'potent' a Darkness spell is. What's clear that the Shadow Arts feature doesn't allow the monk to see through magical darkness unless it specifically comes from the Shadow Arts feature. On that basis, I'd suggest that they'd still be blinded, even if there's overlap between 'Shadow Arts Darkness' and another source of magical darkness.
In the specific case of two Darkness spells of the same level, I think the area of the last spell cast should win if their areas overlap:
Combining Spell Effects
The effects of different spells add together while their durations overlap. In contrast, the effects of the same spell cast multiple times don’t combine. Instead, the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus—from those castings applies while their durations overlap. The most recent effect applies if the castings are equally potent and their durations overlap. For example, if two Clerics cast Bless on the same target, that target gains the spell’s benefit only once; the target doesn’t receive two bonus dice. But if the durations of the spells overlap, the effect continues until the duration of the second Bless ends.
There's no real mechanical baseline for how 'potent' a Darkness spell is. What's clear that the Shadow Arts feature doesn't allow the monk to see through magical darkness unless it specifically comes from the Shadow Arts feature. On that basis, I'd suggest that they'd still be blinded, even if there's overlap between 'Shadow Arts Darkness' and another source of magical darkness.
Sure there is, it's decided by the relative spell level.
Sure there is, it's decided by the relative spell level.
That's a good, logical way to rule it; but the PHB describes potency as, "the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus". There's no mechanical difference between two overlapping Darkness spells, no matter the level they're cast at, so there's no difference in 'potency' as far as the PHB actually defines it.
To me, "the highest bonus" is just an example of getting the most potent effect, but if the spell doesn't have it, I'd say the spell level is another way.
That's a good, logical way to rule it; but the PHB describes potency as, "the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus". There's no mechanical difference between two overlapping Darkness spells, no matter the level they're cast at, so there's no difference in 'potency' as far as the PHB actually defines it.
Sure there is, a spell cast with a higher level spell slot is more difficult to dispel that one cast with a lower level spell slot.
And also, the phrase "such as" indicates that is is just an example so if there is no difference in bonus (or no numerical bonus at all as in the case with Darkness) then you look for other ways to discern potency.
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Hey,
With 2024 rules the shadow monk's Darkness is now:
Darkness. You can expend 1 Focus Point to cast the Darkness spell without spell components. You can see within the spell’s area when you cast it with this feature. While the spell persists, you can move its area of Darkness to a space within 60 feet of yourself at the start of each of your turns.
So if monk's race did not have natural dark vision, and no other means for dark vision had be used, cast Darkness within an area already effected by darkness, looking at both natural darkness and magical darkness. How would this interact, both RAW and how you'd play it at your tables.
Does the monk still see darkness, and the obscuration to vision is just what was already there and not the new layer of darkness they added.
Does the monk gain a pocket of vision within the spell effect area, Does the Monk have to be within the effect area to see or does it almost work like a torch in the distance (enabling a sort of throw and teleport system with it via shadow step.
Thanks for your input
Probably? It's just that you can see within the Darkness created by the spell.
Regarding not having natural Darkvision, that's something you also gain with the Level 3: Shadow Arts feature:
The second part of that feature gives the player Darkvision, so the question is moot:
Hypothetically though, if you only had the Darkness section of the feature, I'd argue that you still wouldn't be able to see within the area of the spell. Per the Player's Handbook, the presence or absence of light determines the category of illumination in an area. Where there's no illumination, the area becomes heavily obscured and a player without special senses becomes blinded.
In this case, you can see into the spell's area; but that area still has no illumination, so the heavily obscured rule would still apply.
Not entirely moot, since the spell says:
This is the intent based on this pre-release article 2024 Monk vs. 2014 Monk: What’s New:
The Darkvision restriction from the base spell doesn't apply, because the Shadow Arts feature negates it:
The original question is whether a Warrior of Shadow monk without Darkvision would be able to see the area within the specific Darkness spell granted through their Shadow Arts feature, if that area had no illumination - but the same feature grants you the ability to cast Darkness in that manner also gives you Darkvision, so RAW you're never going to be in that position. That's all I meant.
Oh, sorry, I misunderstood you!
No worries! That's my bad for not explaining it clearly.
Hey,
Cheers for pointing out the darkvision change, seems i didnt read that correctly in my haste for this idea. Thought it played out the same as 2014 where it was 1 focus point to cast spell which lasts for 8 hours. Not a permanent buff. (guess being a halfling shadow monk in 2014 rules, I've got to used to that application of darkvision)
So agree mostly moot point. I guess interaction with other magical darkness would be a factor, although would that fall under combining spell effect rules, or just grant the Monk a bespoke method of seeing in parts which over lap
That's a little trickier. The PHB says:
There's no real mechanical baseline for how 'potent' a Darkness spell is. What's clear that the Shadow Arts feature doesn't allow the monk to see through magical darkness unless it specifically comes from the Shadow Arts feature. On that basis, I'd suggest that they'd still be blinded, even if there's overlap between 'Shadow Arts Darkness' and another source of magical darkness.
In the specific case of two Darkness spells of the same level, I think the area of the last spell cast should win if their areas overlap:
Sure there is, it's decided by the relative spell level.
That's a good, logical way to rule it; but the PHB describes potency as, "the most potent effect—such as the highest bonus". There's no mechanical difference between two overlapping Darkness spells, no matter the level they're cast at, so there's no difference in 'potency' as far as the PHB actually defines it.
To me, "the highest bonus" is just an example of getting the most potent effect, but if the spell doesn't have it, I'd say the spell level is another way.
Sure there is, a spell cast with a higher level spell slot is more difficult to dispel that one cast with a lower level spell slot.
And also, the phrase "such as" indicates that is is just an example so if there is no difference in bonus (or no numerical bonus at all as in the case with Darkness) then you look for other ways to discern potency.