Given that Pact of the Blade, Pact of the Tome and Pact of the Chain are no longer features but Invocations, can Invocations from earlier books that refer to the Pact of the Blade feature, or Pact of the Tome feature, or Pact of the Chain feature be used with the related Invocations?
To make this question simpler: - Can Improved Pact Weapon be used with the Pact of the Blade Invocation? - Can Book of Ancient Secrets be used with the Pact of the Tome Invocation? - Can Gift of the Ever-Living Ones be used with the Pact of the Chain invocation?
Since WoTC made the pacts invocations, I suspect that their intent is that the invocations replace the features, and that everything that referred to them as features still works with them as invocations instead (RAI). But, I could be wrong. :-)
I don't think there's been any official word on this, but if I were DMing I'd be fine with it. (I don't think Improved Pact Weapon or Book of Ancient Secrets are really worth it given the improvements that have been made to the Pact options they build on, but that's just me.)
It should be noted that D&D Beyond's character builder doesn't support this, but you shouldn't take this as an indication that that's how the rules are supposed to work, as there are a variety of areas where D&D Beyond's implementation of the rules differs from the actual rules.
Improved Pact Weapon lets you summon ranged weapons, and gives any weapon a +1. That's the main reason for it, especially if you built without EB and need a ranged weapon in a pinch.
Book of Ancient Secrets lets you grab some more ritual spells to put in your book, giving you a tad more flexibility.
For a person that is restarting after 20 years, and only having 2024 rules I would question why the 2024 rule is not enough and are you trying to game the rules/system? Backward compatibility sounds great, but on a table there can be practical issues occurring.
Yes, let the DM decide as they would have an understanding of the 2014 rules.
[...] Book of Ancient Secrets lets you grab some more ritual spells to put in your book, giving you a tad more flexibility.
As DM, I'd allow the use of the 2014 Pact of the Tome + Book of Ancient Secrets instead of the 2024 equivalent Invocations if a player prefers that option (EDIT: especially if that player is coming from a 2014 Warlock era experience)
No, I'm trying to make use of something that was not made part of the 2024 rules. There are no equivalent invocations in the 2024 rules. Yes, the Pact of the Blade invocation lets you summon a ranged weapon I:F you find a magical one and IF you make it your pact weapon. It does not allow you to create a +1 weapon... which could be anything, including a ranged weapon.
As for the Book of Ancient Secrets, it just gives you some more rituals that you can draw from, and change out when you need to if they no longer work for you. Having access to more spells as a warlock is a good thing.
I think that might be your answer. You can't just create magic weapons. Instead have the DM give the PC that +1 weapon and the PC will turn it into a pact weapon.
As for the Book of Ancient Secrets, it just gives you some more rituals that you can draw from, and change out when you need to if they no longer work for you. Having access to more spells as a warlock is a good thing.
Not sure what you are asking for? You want more spells then you normally get? Have you looked at the 2024 Feat "Ritual Caster"?
Neither of those invocations were brought into the 2024 rules system. I.e. there are no 2024 equivalent invocations.
When I said equivalent Invocations, this is what I had in mind:
- 2014 Pact of the Tome (a feature) instead of 2024 Pact of the Tome (an Invocation) - 2014 Book of Ancient Secrets (Invocation) instead of Gift of the Protectors (Invocation)
Anyway, all this mixing between editions is not intentended and it's DM territory.
Actually, if you read the books, mixing between editions IS intended... very much so.
Yes and no. The core system, baseline performance expectations, etc haven’t changed and the two iterations of 5th edition are generally cross-compatible, but it’s not designed to be a complete free-for-all. You’ll get 2024 subclass features that don’t work properly with 2014 base classes since they rely on features added in 2024, and it is worth noting that a number of Invocations in the 2014 PHB were deliberately excluded from the 2024 version. That doesn’t mean they absolutely must be banned, but given others were brought forward unchanged it does contraindicate the idea that all the prior Invocations and various other features are up for grabs, no questions asked for 2024 based content.
When you play D&D with the 2024 Player’s Handbook, it replaces all rules, classes, subclasses, spells, feats, equipment, species, and backgrounds in the 2014 version of the book. There are a few exceptions; the following options don’t appear in the 2024 book and are still usable from 2014: [...]
Any subclass, spell, or feat from Xanathar’s Guide to Everything or Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything that appears in this book replaces the version that appears in the Everything book.
I don't know why people would be against it. Neither are over powered and heck book of ancient secrets would at least give you one non terrible option for pact of the tome builds. Because holy crap did they do pact of the tome dirty with only one really bad invocation add on. It should be the baked in default for pact of the tome probably. Ritual magic is baked into the very core of warlock.
But, just because the new subclasses, feats, etc. replace old ones WITH THE SAME NAME, doesn't mean that you can't use old items from the older books! And, the PHB specifically says it's ok by having text in it that says what happens when you use old species or old backgrounds. In addition, WoTC staff have, in various videos, posts, etc. said that the older material is still usable and IT'S INTENDED TO STILL BE USABLE.
They have CLEARLY said that the old rules, include old invocations, are INTENDED to be used with the newer matierla.
But, as with a lot of the other things they did, they left A LOT of ambiguity as to how various old things interact with new things. These (the pact invocations that are the subject of this thread) are examples of those cases where there is a LOT of ambiguity as to how they work with the newer material.
Anyway, I'm done here. Until or unless WoTC updates them, I'm going to leave it up to my DM to decide.
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Given that Pact of the Blade, Pact of the Tome and Pact of the Chain are no longer features but Invocations, can Invocations from earlier books that refer to the Pact of the Blade feature, or Pact of the Tome feature, or Pact of the Chain feature be used with the related Invocations?
To make this question simpler:
- Can Improved Pact Weapon be used with the Pact of the Blade Invocation?
- Can Book of Ancient Secrets be used with the Pact of the Tome Invocation?
- Can Gift of the Ever-Living Ones be used with the Pact of the Chain invocation?
Since WoTC made the pacts invocations, I suspect that their intent is that the invocations replace the features, and that everything that referred to them as features still works with them as invocations instead (RAI). But, I could be wrong. :-)
I don't think there's been any official word on this, but if I were DMing I'd be fine with it. (I don't think Improved Pact Weapon or Book of Ancient Secrets are really worth it given the improvements that have been made to the Pact options they build on, but that's just me.)
It should be noted that D&D Beyond's character builder doesn't support this, but you shouldn't take this as an indication that that's how the rules are supposed to work, as there are a variety of areas where D&D Beyond's implementation of the rules differs from the actual rules.
pronouns: he/she/they
Improved Pact Weapon lets you summon ranged weapons, and gives any weapon a +1. That's the main reason for it, especially if you built without EB and need a ranged weapon in a pinch.
Book of Ancient Secrets lets you grab some more ritual spells to put in your book, giving you a tad more flexibility.
For certain builds, they may be worth it.
For a person that is restarting after 20 years, and only having 2024 rules I would question why the 2024 rule is not enough and are you trying to game the rules/system? Backward compatibility sounds great, but on a table there can be practical issues occurring.
Yes, let the DM decide as they would have an understanding of the 2014 rules.
As DM, I'd allow the use of the 2014 Pact of the Tome + Book of Ancient Secrets instead of the 2024 equivalent Invocations if a player prefers that option (EDIT: especially if that player is coming from a 2014 Warlock era experience)
Neither of those invocations were brought into the 2024 rules system. I.e. there are no 2024 equivalent invocations.
No, I'm trying to make use of something that was not made part of the 2024 rules. There are no equivalent invocations in the 2024 rules. Yes, the Pact of the Blade invocation lets you summon a ranged weapon I:F you find a magical one and IF you make it your pact weapon. It does not allow you to create a +1 weapon... which could be anything, including a ranged weapon.
As for the Book of Ancient Secrets, it just gives you some more rituals that you can draw from, and change out when you need to if they no longer work for you. Having access to more spells as a warlock is a good thing.
Netiher of these are "gaming the system".
I think that might be your answer. You can't just create magic weapons. Instead have the DM give the PC that +1 weapon and the PC will turn it into a pact weapon.
Not sure what you are asking for? You want more spells then you normally get? Have you looked at the 2024 Feat "Ritual Caster"?
When I said equivalent Invocations, this is what I had in mind:
- 2014 Pact of the Tome (a feature) instead of 2024 Pact of the Tome (an Invocation)
- 2014 Book of Ancient Secrets (Invocation) instead of Gift of the Protectors (Invocation)
Anyway, all this mixing between editions is not intentended and it's DM territory.
Actually, if you read the books, mixing between editions IS intended... very much so.
Yes and no. The core system, baseline performance expectations, etc haven’t changed and the two iterations of 5th edition are generally cross-compatible, but it’s not designed to be a complete free-for-all. You’ll get 2024 subclass features that don’t work properly with 2014 base classes since they rely on features added in 2024, and it is worth noting that a number of Invocations in the 2014 PHB were deliberately excluded from the 2024 version. That doesn’t mean they absolutely must be banned, but given others were brought forward unchanged it does contraindicate the idea that all the prior Invocations and various other features are up for grabs, no questions asked for 2024 based content.
Being compatible is not about mixing. It has more to do with not forcing a person to immediately purchase the new books and throw away the old books.
What I meant in my previous answer was mixing 2014 with 2024 Warlock Invocations.
But generally speaking, we have the next guideline from WotC Updates in the Player’s Handbook (2024) | Dungeons & Dragons
Also, this thread is useful Rules Summary: Using 2014 character options on 2024 characters - General Discussion
I don't know why people would be against it. Neither are over powered and heck book of ancient secrets would at least give you one non terrible option for pact of the tome builds. Because holy crap did they do pact of the tome dirty with only one really bad invocation add on. It should be the baked in default for pact of the tome probably. Ritual magic is baked into the very core of warlock.
But, just because the new subclasses, feats, etc. replace old ones WITH THE SAME NAME, doesn't mean that you can't use old items from the older books! And, the PHB specifically says it's ok by having text in it that says what happens when you use old species or old backgrounds. In addition, WoTC staff have, in various videos, posts, etc. said that the older material is still usable and IT'S INTENDED TO STILL BE USABLE.
They have CLEARLY said that the old rules, include old invocations, are INTENDED to be used with the newer matierla.
But, as with a lot of the other things they did, they left A LOT of ambiguity as to how various old things interact with new things. These (the pact invocations that are the subject of this thread) are examples of those cases where there is a LOT of ambiguity as to how they work with the newer material.
Anyway, I'm done here. Until or unless WoTC updates them, I'm going to leave it up to my DM to decide.